Rate the Blues

[Legionnaire11]

Looking for some help on my annual rating project. Shouldn't take more than 15 mins if you watched most of the Blues games last season. So the three areas that I'm seeking input are:

• Player Role: This is really what type of player they are, and specifically where they would slot into the average NHL team, not necessarily St. Louis (e.g. Malkin would be the 1C on almost any other team). So they could be Elite/All-Star, 1st liner, 2nd liner, 3rd liner, 4th liner/Scratch, Minor leaguer, High-end prospect, Low-end prospect. (don't rate 1-5 here, just list what role they are)
  
• Skating: Straight ahead speed should be the primary consideration. Rate on the provided scale where 1 is the lowest, 5 is the highest and 3 is average.
• Defense: Overall defensive skill but primarily gap control and using their stick and body to neutralize an attacker. Rate on the provided 1-5 scale.

The Scale:
5 - Well above average
4 - Above average
3 - Average
2 - Below Average
1 - Well below average
(In reality some player could be a 0 or 6, for example McDavid would rate as a 6 in skating, this would be an extremely rare case and most teams won't have a 0 or 6 in any area)

I need only 2-3 submissions, and the help is extremely appreciated!

For reference, here are the players that I'm looking for:
Ryan O'Reilly
Klim Kostin
Oskar Sundqvist
Brayden Schenn
Tyler Bozak
Robert Thomas
Ivan Barbashev
Jordan Kyrou
Jacob de la Rose
Alexander Steen
Zach Sanford
Sammy Blais
David Perron
Mackenzie MacEachern
Jaden Schwartz
Nathan Walker
Vladimir Tarasenko
Troy Brouwer
Austin Poganski
Colton Parayko
Justin Faulk
Robert Bortuzzo
Marco Scandella
Alex Pietrangelo
Jay Bouwmeester
Vince Dunn
Carl Gunnarsson
Derrick Pouliot
Niko Mikkola
Jake Walman

Click to read more...

 

[HighNote]

I did my best.

Ryan O'Reilly | Elite | 3 | 5
Klim Kostin |Low-end prospect | 3 | 1
Oskar Sundqvist | 3rd liner | 3 | 4
Brayden Schenn | 1st liner | 3 | 3
Tyler Bozak | 3rd liner | 3 |3
Robert Thomas | 2nd/3rd liner | 4 | 3
Ivan Barbashev | 4th liner | 3 | 3
Jordan Kyrou | High-end prospect | 5 | 1
Jacob de la Rose | 4th liner/scratch | 2 | 3
Alexander Steen | 3rd/4th liner | 2 | 4
Zach Sanford | 3rd liner | 2 | 2
Sammy Blais | 3rd/4th liner | 3 | 2
David Perron | 1st liner | 3 | 3
Mackenzie MacEachern | 4th liner/scratch | 3 | 2
Jaden Schwartz | 1st liner | 4 | 4
Nathan Walker | Minor leaguer | 3 | 1
Vladimir Tarasenko | Elite | 4 | 3
Troy Brouwer | 4th liner/scratch | 1 | 2
Austin Poganski | Minor leaguer | Don't know enough
Colton Parayko | Elite | 4 | 5
Justin Faulk | 2nd pairing | 3 | 2
Robert Bortuzzo | 3rd pairing/scratch | 3 | 2
Marco Scandella | 2nd pairing | 3 | 3
Alex Pietrangelo | Elite | 4 | 5
Jay Bouwmeester | 1st pairing | 4 | 4 (Likely retired though)
Vince Dunn | 3rd/2nd pairing | 3 | 2
Carl Gunnarsson | 3rd pairing/scratch | 1 | 2
Derrick Pouliot | Minor leaguer | Don't know enough
Niko Mikkola | 3rd pairing/low-end prospect | 3 | 3
Jake Walman | Low-end prospect/minor leaguer | Don't know enough

 

[simon IC]

I did my best.

Ryan O'Reilly | Elite | 3 | 5
Klim Kostin |Low-end prospect | 3 | 1
Oskar Sundqvist | 3rd liner | 3 | 4
Brayden Schenn | 1st liner | 3 | 3
Tyler Bozak | 3rd liner | 3 |3
Robert Thomas | 2nd/3rd liner | 4 | 3
Ivan Barbashev | 4th liner | 3 | 3
Jordan Kyrou | High-end prospect | 5 | 1
Jacob de la Rose | 4th liner/scratch | 2 | 3
Alexander Steen | 3rd/4th liner | 2 | 4
Zach Sanford | 3rd liner | 2 | 2
Sammy Blais | 3rd/4th liner | 3 | 2
David Perron | 1st liner | 3 | 3
Mackenzie MacEachern | 4th liner/scratch | 3 | 2
Jaden Schwartz | 1st liner | 4 | 4
Nathan Walker | Minor leaguer | 3 | 1
Vladimir Tarasenko | Elite | 4 | 3
Troy Brouwer | 4th liner/scratch | 1 | 2
Austin Poganski | Minor leaguer | Don't know enough
Colton Parayko | Elite | 4 | 5
Justin Faulk | 2nd pairing | 3 | 2
Robert Bortuzzo | 3rd pairing/scratch | 3 | 2
Marco Scandella | 2nd pairing | 3 | 3
Alex Pietrangelo | Elite | 4 | 5
Jay Bouwmeester | 1st pairing | 4 | 4 (Likely retired though)
Vince Dunn | 3rd/2nd pairing | 3 | 2
Carl Gunnarsson | 3rd pairing/scratch | 1 | 2
Derrick Pouliot | Minor leaguer | Don't know enough
Niko Mikkola | 3rd pairing/low-end prospect | 3 | 3
Jake Walman | Low-end prospect/minor leaguer | Don't know enough

Good evaluations! I have a couple of minor disagreements. A), I am not sure I would call Tarasenko "elite" anymore. B), Mikkola a "low-end prospect"? I think you are seriously undervaluing Niko here.

 

[simon IC]

Ryan O'Reilly Elite. 3, 5.
Oskar Sundqvist 3rd liner. 4, 4. Klim Klim Kostin Good prospect, 3, 2.
Brayden Schenn 1st liner. 3, 3.
Tyler Bozak 3rd liner. 3, 3.
Robert Thomas 3rd-2nd liner. 4, 3.
Ivan Barbashev 4th liner. 4, 4.
Jordan Kyrou Good prospect. 5, 2.
Jacob de la Rose 4th liner/scratch. 3, 4.
Alexander Steen 4th liner, scratch. 2, 4.
Zach Sanford 3rd liner, can move up. 3, 3.
Sammy Blais 4th liner, can move up. 3. 3.
David Perron 1st liner/2nd liner. 3, 3.
Mackenzie MacEachern 4th liner, 4, 3.
Jaden Schwartz 1st liner, 4, 4.
Nathan Walker low-end prospect, AHL. 3, 1.
Vladimir Tarasenko 1st liner. 3, 3.
Troy Brouwer 4th liner/scratch. 2, 3.
Austin Poganski. 4th liner/scratch/AHL. 3, 2.
Colton Parayko Elite. 4, 5.
Justin Faulk 2nd pairing/3rd pairing. 3, 1.
Robert Bortuzzo 3rd pairing. 3, 4.
Marco Scandella 2nd pairing, 3, 4.
Alex Pietrangelo Elite. 4, 4.
Jay Bouwmeester 1st pairing. 5, 5. ( probably retired)
Vince Dunn 2rd/3nd pairing. 4. 2. Carl Gunnarsson 3rd pairing, 3, 3.
Derrick Pouliot AHL. 3, 2.
Niko Mikkola Good prospect. 4, 4.
Jake Walman AHL/low-end prospect. 3, 2

 

[Celtic Note]

Good evaluations! I have a couple of minor disagreements. A), I am not sure I would call Tarasenko "elite" anymore. B), Mikkola a "low-end prospect"? I think you are seriously undervaluing Niko here.

Mikkola has shown low offensive upside, so it’s hard to say that he will be in that high end tier of prospect. He seemingly has a cap on his potential.

I still like him as a prospect, but I think realistic expectations put him at a mid range prospect.

 

[HighNote]

Good evaluations! I have a couple of minor disagreements. A), I am not sure I would call Tarasenko "elite" anymore. B), Mikkola a "low-end prospect"? I think you are seriously undervaluing Niko here.

Mikkola has shown low offensive upside, so it’s hard to say that he will be in that high end tier of prospect. He seemingly has a cap on his potential.

I still like him as a prospect, but I think realistic expectations put him at a mid range prospect.

The reason I put Mikkola as a "low-end prospect" is because I view him as a guy that will be an alright 2nd pairing guy, but a great 3rd pairing option. I thought of high end prospects as being guys that have a lot of potential to be a top 6 forward or a solid top 3-4 defenseman. And yeah, if there was a mid range prospect option, he'd probably slip in there.

And as far as Tarasenko goes, I think he's elite until proven not. I'd like to see him when he's healthy before taking that title away from him. Seems unfair to assume he won't be elite again, although I do agree that it's more likely he'll come back as just a solid 1st line guy instead of elite. But who knows.

 

[BlueDream]

Tarasenko isn’t elite. He’s never even hit PPG and now after all these surgeries we will be lucky if he’s even hitting 60 points again.

Also Bozak is way better defensively than Thomas. Bozak is a 4 in that regard.

 

[AVictoryDive]

Tarasenko isn’t elite. He’s never even hit PPG and now after all these surgeries we will be lucky if he’s even hitting 60 points again.

Also Bozak is way better defensively than Thomas. Bozak is a 4 in that regard.

As a goal scorer he “was” elite. Guys that score over 30 goals every year don’t grow on trees with the last 5 seasons before this one he did, along with recording assists that were fairly equal to his goal output. A very well balanced offensive player that is on the lower end of elite. Now will he still have that balance when he comes back? Maybe or maybe not but to say he isn’t/wasn’t elite is flat out wrong.

 

[BlueDream]

As a goal scorer he “was” elite. Guys that score over 30 goals every year don’t grow one trees with the last 5 seasons before this one he did each year along with recording assists that were fairly equal to his goal output. A very well balanced offensive player that is on the lower end of elite. Now will he still have that balance when he comes back? Maybe or maybe not but to say he isn’t/wasn’t elite is flat out wrong.

He hasn’t hit 70 points since 2017. Now who knows if he even plays next season. If he doesn’t, he’s turning 30 when he returns in 2021-2022. It’s fine if you want to be delusional about it but no, Tarasenko won’t be an elite player for us anymore. I don’t really care what you considered him 4 years ago.

 

[AVictoryDive]

He hasn’t hit 70 points since 2017. Now who knows if he even plays next season. If he doesn’t, he’s turning 30 when he returns in 2021-2022. It’s fine if you want to be delusional about it but no, Tarasenko won’t be an elite player for us anymore. I don’t really care what you considered him 4 years ago.

Well, as one poster put he has to prove us wrong first. Being delusional can swing your way too, so let’s wait and see.

 

[Robb_K]

Straight-ahead skating speed should be one of the most important factors we use as the measure of a player's skating ability. But, edgework, First stride (starting speed), Agility in making cuts, etc. should also be factored in. Skaters with high levels in all the other aspects are often more valuable as skaters than a player with just great straight-ahead speed. I know a bunch of Dutch speed skaters who would need to do a lot of work on their skating before being able to play hockey! I think those other skating skills should also be factored into the skating score (and, of course defencemen would be judged differently from forwards, as backwards skating would be a lot more important). I would base my 1-5 skating rating on a combination of all those factors, with differing weights for them based on which position the player plays. It shouldn't just be related to scoring, because they need to skate fast, and with agility to play defence, too.

And yes, not having a mid-level prospect sort of makes it difficult to decide whether mid level prospects should be put with the high or low level groups. Some prospects, who are on the margins, who don't have elite skills, but have fairly decent skills, but are great learners with a great work ethic, just haven't played enough yet, to have a good sense of which of your 2 groups with skill levels and attributes that are far apart. And some prospects are so young, and their bodies aren't developed yet, so they could end up being like Parayko , and Jamie Benn, as mid-level prospects, who later became high-level prospects or high-level pro players. Would giving different ratings to 3 different levels of prospects instead of 2 be so much extra work to tabulate and assess?

So, a rating of "6" is elite, (only maybe 3-5 players in The NHL rate it), and "0" is an over-the-hill, now "worthless" as a player, only in the room to teach, and provide moral support.

I take it that you didn't ask us to rate the players' offensive value because you already have scoring stats like goals and assists per minute played, and team goals scored while the player was on the ice, etc.