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Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season and it’s not talked about enough | Page 3 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season and it’s not talked about enough

Lonewolfe2015 said:
Every major news source I read says Makar is the favorite, betting sites say so and the advanced stats nerds all show Makar doing great.

Saying Makar isn't leading or that's its a two-horse race is ignorance at best.

There's this insanity that's been spreading that is trying to compare Makar to a modern day Karlsson. His defense is amongst the best in the league. He controls the game offensively as well as anyone else. And his shot is the best from the blue line bar none. I can't believe the best defenseman in the league needs to be defended like this, on a forum of people that are well above average in their knowledge of the game.
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Forget everything else. I don't really care. But every 'major news source' actually has Hughes 1 and Makar 2. And if they don't, they're probably based in Denver.
 
Grifter3511 said:
Forget everything else. I don't really care. But every 'major news source' actually has Hughes 1 and Makar 2. And if they don't, they're probably based in Denver.
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Ah yes. NHL.com, famously based in Denver. Trophy Tracker: Makar of Avalanche choice for Norris as best defenseman | NHL.com

The point isn't to get argumentative. The point is to make it clear this is no landslide like people around here keep making it out to be. And the criminal underrating of Makar relative to Hughes makes HFB a microcosm, not a majority. Makar hasn't finished less than top 3 in Norris voting since his rookie year. Of course he's a contender.

Hughes is playing great. I like him for the Hart. But the Hart doesn't make him the Norris winner by default.
 
Lonewolfe2015 said:
Ah yes. NHL.com, famously based in Denver. Trophy Tracker: Makar of Avalanche choice for Norris as best defenseman | NHL.com

The point isn't to get argumentative. The point is to make it clear this is no landslide like people around here keep making it out to be. And the criminal underrating of Makar relative to Hughes makes HFB a microcosm, not a majority. Makar hasn't finished less than top 3 in Norris voting since his rookie year. Of course he's a contender.

Hughes is playing great. I like him for the Hart. But the Hart doesn't make him the Norris winner by default.
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Makar is leading the Norris race right now according to the media. You are correct about this.

HF is better at giving Hughes credit than the media is (probably due to the fact that more people on HF watch games than the media do) but Makar gets a ton of love as well.

I personally do not agree with the media here, I think Hughes should be leading the Norris race.

Makar is a hell of a defenceman and in the conversation for best defenceman in the NHL year in and year out, many times taking that crown.

But media decided back in 2022 that Makar was the best defenceman since Bobby Orr and hasn't bothered to re-assess.

Makar has taken a bit of a step back from his 2022 form (which is understandable given that it was one hell of a peak), and Hughes has improved a lot and is now on the same level as him.

If Makar was doing what Hughes is doing this season, you'd hear way more Hart talk than you're hearing for Hughes - hence why I think OP made this thread.
 
TheNumber4 said:
The argument for Hughes and the Hart is a valid one. Cause he does that drive that team from an individual standpoint at a high level. For as much as McD and the Oilers has been accused of being a “one-man” team, Hughes is right there with the Canucks at probably more extreme level than McD and the Oilers ever were. There’s a valid argument for Hughes for Hart.

That said I don’t think Hughes wins the Norris, let alone Hart. Makar will have the Norris, which takes MacK out of contention for the Hart (or should), and the Hart will be Drais this season.
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Lol imagine saying MacKinnon is out for the Hart because of Makar but Draisatl should win the despite playing with McDavid.
 
PatriceBergeronFan said:
NHL website?

Makar over 2 minutes on PK? Hughes 30 seconds?

Makar is #1 for many.
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Makar is actually a really bad PKer, last season he was bottom 8% in the league, even when ignoring quality of goalies.

Who cares about Makar PKing more when he can't handle those minutes.
 
SillyRabbit said:
If Makar was doing what Hughes is doing this season, you'd hear way more Hart talk than you're hearing for Hughes - hence why I think OP made this thread.
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Personally I see plenty of Hart talk for Hughes. It's warranted this early. The Norris 'guarantee' is where I call BS. And if you're referring to Makar being nominated by Avs fans, that wouldn't happen when MacK is playing like the best forward in the league and just won it last year. Makar isn't playing like the best player on his team, but he doesn't have to be to be the best defender in the league.

Norris is going to come down to games played due to injury. The winner will be the healthier of Makar or Hughes.
 
Lonewolfe2015 said:
Personally I see plenty of Hart talk for Hughes. It's warranted this early. The Norris 'guarantee' is where I call BS. And if you're referring to Makar being nominated by Avs fans, that wouldn't happen when MacK is playing like the best forward in the league and just won it last year. Makar isn't playing like the best player on his team, but he doesn't have to be to be the best defender in the league.

Norris is going to come down to games played due to injury. The winner will be the healthier of Makar or Hughes.
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No, what I'm saying is that if Makar was solo carrying the Avs like Hughes is currently doing the Canucks.

Obviously Makar is not the Hart candidate for the Avs this season because MacKinnon has been dominant.

But if he was leading his team in scoring by 17 points? You'd be hearing his name in Hart talks a lot.
 
SillyRabbit said:
No, what I'm saying is that if Makar was solo carrying the Avs like Hughes is currently doing the Canucks.

Obviously Makar is not the Hart candidate for the Avs this season because MacKinnon has been dominant.

But if he was leading his team in scoring by 17 points? You'd be hearing his name in Hart talks a lot.
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Sure? Not really what I'm trying to discuss here... Hart talk is warranted. Norris is not. No one is arguing Hughes isn't carrying the dead corpse of the Canucks. The Avs don't have that problem for Makar to solve.

And the guy saying Makar was a bottom PKer needs to look at relative expectations and performance. Makar was almost 50% better than expected on his goal differential based on the Avs performance as a team. Toews was also a bottom PKer based on performance, but it's crazy to imagine both Makar and Toews are terrible on the PK. Avs PK has been bad behind their abysmal goaltending.
 
NyQuil said:
I’m not quite understanding that this is some kind of big secret.
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Not everyone has the ability to completely put their bias to the side and judge a player on a opposing team honestly.
 
Lonewolfe2015 said:
Sure? Not really what I'm trying to discuss here... Hart talk is warranted. Norris is not. No one is arguing Hughes isn't carrying the dead corpse of the Canucks. The Avs don't have that problem for Makar to solve.
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No defenceman in NHL history has ever won the Hart while not also winning the Norris.

I was going to post this elsewhere but I might as well share here:

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Quinn Hughes has 47 points in 38 games. (101 point pace).

Cale Makar has 49 points in 44 games. (91 point pace).

Hughes is leading his team in scoring by 17 points.

Makar is 19 points behind his team's leading scorer.

Makar's teammates are #1 and #4 in NHL scoring.

Hughes' closest teammate is #98 in NHL scoring.

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Hughes is dominating offensively with significantly less offensive support than Makar.

Not only is he scoring at a higher rate per game, he's doing it without having the support of the league's best scorers in MacKinnon or Rantanen.

In fact, if you add up both Miller and Pettersson's point totals this season (57), it's *still less* than Rantanen alone (60), forget about MacKinnon at 68.

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From a defensive standpoint, if you think Hughes is a below average defender, you're still living in 2021. He actually took a big leap forward defensively last season and has improved on that this season. While I wouldn't call him "elite" defensively, he's absolutely "good" defensively.

But don't take my word for it, check out the latest analytics on Hughes and Makar from JFresh, highlighting that while both are elite, most advanced metrics favor Hughes this season. (For reference, here's Werenski who should be the third Norris finalist).

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I should also note that Hughes is doing all of this with an injured hand. He shouldn't even be playing right now but the Canucks rely on him so desperately that they brought him back into the lineup early after going 1-2-1 against Calgary, Seattle and Nashville, all teams sitting outside of a playoff spot.

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Quinn Hughes should be in the conversation for the Hart trophy based on how he's carrying the Canucks this season.

He should also be the frontrunner for the Norris based on his offensive production (2 points back of Makar with 2 games in hand), and excellent defense.

What has Makar done to warrant being the frontrunner? Scored 2 more points in 2 more games while playing with MacKinnon and Rantanen?
 
SillyRabbit said:
No defenceman in NHL history has ever won the Hart while not also winning the Norris.
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That's literally two players, Chris Pronger who won by 1 point and was 2nd in defensive scoring, a ridiculous +52 and carried the Blues to 1st in their division when the top scorer only had 13 more points. The other was Bobby Orr.

You're making a conclusion based on outliers. Furthermore you're extrapolating a Norris win purely off an argument for the Hart. Which is a pure Hart argument. Everyone on reddit has already told you that you can't make a Norris argument off Hart voting criteria purely.
 
Lonewolfe2015 said:
That's literally two players, Chris Pronger who won by 1 point and was 2nd in defensive scoring, a ridiculous +52 and carried the Blues to 1st in their division when the top scorer only had 13 more points. The other was Bobby Orr.

You're making a conclusion based on outliers. Furthermore you're extrapolating a Norris win purely off an argument for the Hart. Which is a pure Hart argument. Everyone on reddit has already told you that you can't make a Norris argument off Hart voting criteria purely.
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I made my argument for Hughes being the Norris frontrunner.

What's your argument for Makar being the Norris frontrunner?
 
SillyRabbit said:
I made my argument for Hughes being the Norris frontrunner.

What's your argument for Makar being the Norris frontrunner?
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Better offensive production, as good defensive contribution, tougher minutes as his competition numbers show. Pretty straight forward. That's why it'll come down to injuries, if either player misses 10-12 games, it'll be enough to knock them down just that much compared to the other.

Just like every year for Makar. He's been a top 3 contender for 5 years and each year he's lost the argument was being too injured.
 
Lankinen is the biggest reason they are near a playoff spot. He’s been as important to that teams as Hughes is this season.
 
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