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If you are a true fan of a team, you should NEVER root for your team to lose games. And as players, that is an extreme insult to even suggest that a player would tank.
I don't get where this is coming from, to be honest. Tanking is illegal, immoral, and unethical. I don't know of any team or players who have actually done this in any sport. You have had scandals in the past, but that was a limited amount of players on some teams that were influenced by gambling interests, not a whole organized tanking campaign.
Some teams have been overloaded with horrid talent: the Lakers this season started out 1-9 but have gone 8-12 since then, and the 76ers are absolutely pathetic, starting out losing their first 17 games but have actually gone 4-8 since then. So players have pride and will do their best.
So I'm pretty sure that answered your question, at least from my perspective.
I don't get where this is coming from, to be honest. Tanking is illegal, immoral, and unethical. I don't know of any team or players who have actually done this in any sport. You have had scandals in the past, but that was a limited amount of players on some teams that were influenced by gambling interests, not a whole organized tanking campaign.
Some teams have been overloaded with horrid talent: the Lakers this season started out 1-9 but have gone 8-12 since then, and the 76ers are absolutely pathetic, starting out losing their first 17 games but have actually gone 4-8 since then. So players have pride and will do their best.
So I'm pretty sure that answered your question, at least from my perspective.
bmr
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2013
- 1,888
- 1,717
I'd by lying if I said some of the Kings fans weren't thinking about it. The Kings were mired in some terrible seasons and I distinctly remember one year where a victory at the end of the season under Andy Murray cost us in the draft order.
However, I believe it is a dangerous precedent and potentially damaging to a team culture when you tank just to try to ensure a high draft pick. There should always be a sense of pride when rebuilding a team.
You aren't guaranteed *ANYTHING* just by getting a #1 pick. Look at how many Edmonton has had. This is more about getting a good management team from the top down.
However, I believe it is a dangerous precedent and potentially damaging to a team culture when you tank just to try to ensure a high draft pick. There should always be a sense of pride when rebuilding a team.
You aren't guaranteed *ANYTHING* just by getting a #1 pick. Look at how many Edmonton has had. This is more about getting a good management team from the top down.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
The thing is, as bad as we were, I can't recall (m)any seasons where we were counted out from the start. We were a black hole team for a long time but there was always the HOPE of the playoffs and as the early 2000s team taught us you can make some memories if you just break down the door. By the end of most seasons we crashed and burned horribly and I know many of us thought aloud how nice it would be to REALLY suck instead of finishing outside the playoffs because it seemed like we were perpetually 9th-12th, and I do remember many of us being pissed at Brian Willsie, but these things eventually work out. Short answer? I don't recall anyone openly rooting for it; I think we started every season with the hope of the playoffs, maybe foolishly. But I think the circumstances were more different honestly.
The Kings rebuild was unique. It really started in 2006, where the first order of business was to change the team's culture while making it look like they were still trying to compete and fixing the drafting and development.
06-08 was bringing in players like S. Thornton and Handzus to help change the work ethic and getting rid of problems like Demitra and Avery.
Lombardi whittled down the core to whom he wanted to keep and that core really took over in 2008-09. That team missed the playoffs, but did finish ahead if the 06-07 and 07-08 teams in the standings. They made the playoffs the next year 09-10 and never looked back.
06-08 was bringing in players like S. Thornton and Handzus to help change the work ethic and getting rid of problems like Demitra and Avery.
Lombardi whittled down the core to whom he wanted to keep and that core really took over in 2008-09. That team missed the playoffs, but did finish ahead if the 06-07 and 07-08 teams in the standings. They made the playoffs the next year 09-10 and never looked back.
cyclones22
Registered User
Yep. One thing Lombardi wanted to do was get younger, but also better at the same time while also shedding bad contracts. Even though the Kings finished worse in the standings in 2007, they had more points than the previous season. Then more the year after that and then 5 years straight of the playoffs. Honestly, he couldn't have drawn it up any better. There's talking the talk, but there's walking the walk. And DL definitely did both.
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,216
- 24,161
It's normal for there to be a split, until one way or the other was a foregone conclusion. As BD said, the Kings biggest problem for many years was the black hole, where they weren't good enough to make the playoffs, but not "bad" enough to get a high pick. Most fans just wanted things to go one way or the other. More were hoping for a rebuild, however, because the core was fairly old, and we had a newer GM who called himself a "builder."
I think it's a good idea to be happy with the direction the Sabres are going, because it IS a direction. As said above, getting a top pick doesn't guarantee a thing, and when you look closely at the Kings roster, they weren't dependent on top picks. Here are the players on BOTH cup winning teams:
Goaltending:
Jonathan Quick - 3rd rounder
Defense:
Drew Doughty - 2nd overall
Matt Greene - Acquired in a trade (Kings sent Lubomir Visnovsky)
Willie Mitchell - Free agent
Alec Martinez - 4th round pick
Slava Voynov - 2nd round pick
Forwards:
Kopitar - 1st round pick (11th overall)
Dustin Brown - 1st round pick (13th overall)
Justin Williams - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Patrick O'Sullivan + 2nd)
Mike Richards - Acquired via trade [Kings sent Brayden Schenn (5th overall) and Wayne Simmonds (2nd round pick)]
Jarrett Stoll - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Lubomir Visnovsky)
Dwight King - 4th round pick
Kyle Clifford - 2nd round pick
Jeff Carter - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Jack Johnson + 1st)
Trevor Lewis - 1st round pick, 17th overall
Jordan Nolan - 7th round pick
The Sabres, in my opinion, should be happy with who they have, and be content with the direction they are going. Sure, it's always exciting to get "that one special player," but the composition and success of the Kings team isn't dependent on drafting that ONE player. They had a lot of very different sources which helped contribute to two cup wins.
I think it's a good idea to be happy with the direction the Sabres are going, because it IS a direction. As said above, getting a top pick doesn't guarantee a thing, and when you look closely at the Kings roster, they weren't dependent on top picks. Here are the players on BOTH cup winning teams:
Goaltending:
Jonathan Quick - 3rd rounder
Defense:
Drew Doughty - 2nd overall
Matt Greene - Acquired in a trade (Kings sent Lubomir Visnovsky)
Willie Mitchell - Free agent
Alec Martinez - 4th round pick
Slava Voynov - 2nd round pick
Forwards:
Kopitar - 1st round pick (11th overall)
Dustin Brown - 1st round pick (13th overall)
Justin Williams - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Patrick O'Sullivan + 2nd)
Mike Richards - Acquired via trade [Kings sent Brayden Schenn (5th overall) and Wayne Simmonds (2nd round pick)]
Jarrett Stoll - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Lubomir Visnovsky)
Dwight King - 4th round pick
Kyle Clifford - 2nd round pick
Jeff Carter - Acquired via trade (Kings sent Jack Johnson + 1st)
Trevor Lewis - 1st round pick, 17th overall
Jordan Nolan - 7th round pick
The Sabres, in my opinion, should be happy with who they have, and be content with the direction they are going. Sure, it's always exciting to get "that one special player," but the composition and success of the Kings team isn't dependent on drafting that ONE player. They had a lot of very different sources which helped contribute to two cup wins.
Matt Ress
Don't sleep on me
I think what Z meant by "tank" is simply hoping we lose games (correct me if I'm wrong). The term gets thrown around a lot on Sabre threads so, as fans, we have very little actual control over successes and failures of The Club. Pretty sure no HFers are poisoning steaks, throwing linens on the ice during practices, or letting the air out of bus tires any more than we are trading away solid players for buckets of pucks. Please exit your soapbox, sir.
As a fan, I like the direction the team is heading, our pool of prospects, and the looks of this year's draft either way but man, those two kids could really shorten the rebuild and be a lot of fun to cheer for.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Hmmm, I'm gonna have to check with the Sabres mods about this one
I think the other thing about rebuilding that annoyed us for a long time and that your'e on the verge of right now is okay--we stockpiled all these prospects, WHEN do they break thru? Because it's not right away for all of them nor will it be at the same time. One of those two studs would probably walk right in, but do you really want them to? See Edmonton. We got really really lucky with Doughty because even Stamkos was painful at first.
onlyalad
There’s a second round? Who knew?
- Jan 13, 2008
- 7,244
- 1,094
As a fan, when the team is playing I want them to win. I consol myself after a loss that "it is for the best" but that is a lie.
The years of looking forward to the draft sucked. Kings have never (except in 67) had the #1 pick. Putting that much hope into one player could lead to heartbreak
The years of looking forward to the draft sucked. Kings have never (except in 67) had the #1 pick. Putting that much hope into one player could lead to heartbreak
KingPuckChoo
Go kinGs Go !
- Jun 24, 2007
- 10,130
- 4,059
ya more than anything you need a smart GM that surrounds himself with talented scouts
there are excellent players in every single round, the 2nd round being the most important round...because anyone can just pick MCDavid or Eichel...it's what comes after that's important
just look at EDM...you can't really fault them for picking guys like Eberle, Paajarvi, Hall, Klefbom, RNH, Yakupov, Nurse...
but just look at what they picked round 2 to 7...it's disastrous
since 2006... they've picked only one active player in their roster from rounds 2 to 7... ONE in 8 YEARS!!!
and it's Jeff Petry back in 2006
now that's a problem
so if Buffalo gets a top 10 pick, and is smart with rounds 2 to 7...not saying you gotta score on every pick...but if a team manages to draft 3 NHL players per draft, then i'd consider it a huge overall success
so hope that Buffalo wins games, because that builds character and will turn guys like Myers, Ristolainen, Girgensons, Enroth into leaders for the club
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
Thanks for the answers. The sabres and Kings rebuilds are similar, hoping we have the same end result
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
So much this. Basically this is all you need. You can forgo so many #1 or #2 picks with this. Look at Detroit. 23, soon to be 24 years in the playoffs in a row, during that time they have won four Stanley Cups and made the third round of the playoffs eight times. The highest they ever drafted in that time frame is 10th overall back in 1991 and only three times they have drafted in the top 20.
If you have a strong management team, you don't need to draft first overall or even top five. Yeah, it's nice, but not a necessity. The reason LA did so well is Dean Lombardi hired a draft genius in Futa and surrounded himself with smart people like Hextall. There was also a good focus on bringing in some guys from the past like Robitaille, Blake and O'Donnell. He also brought in character coaches like Terry Murray and Darryl Sutter. Most important of all, he let those guys do their job. Drafting Doughty second overall was nice, but outside of him all of the team was acquired either through trade or the draft at positions outside the top five. I think all are outside the top 10 as well, but would have to double check that to confirm. After Doughty I think the highest pick currently on the team is Kopitar (11th overall).
Why isn't it working in Edmonton? Because Kevin Lowe and Craig MacTavish have proven they can't build a winner, yet both are still there. MacTavish was a so-so coach, yet he hung around for eight years, finally got let go, and then was brought back as the GM. What does he do? Fire the only coach that's done much of anything (Kruger) in Edmonton in the past seven seasons, brings in his prized pick (Eakins), then when things don't go well tells the fan base that he's only been on the job for 20-months and that's not enough time to turn things around (which is a load of crap). Kevin Lowe was so-so as a coach fro a year, gets promoted to GM, the only thing of note he really ever did was sign Dustin Penner to an offer sheet and run the team into the ground, and for that he gets promoted to President or whatever he is now.
That team has done nothing to fix their horrendous drafting record (since the 1990 draft, 46 players they have drafted have played 100 or more games in the NHL out of the total 238 they have drafted. Of those 46 players, 18 were 1st rounders), they have done nothing to hold anyone accountable from top to bottom, and they refuse to deviate from a core group that is clearly only getting worse. How Lowe and MacTavish have been able to stay around for 15 years in Edmonton is beyond comprehension. All they have to show for it is a long list of bad or mediocore seasons and one playoff run where they got hot for 24 games. That's it.
DL showed he will get rid of guys that don't fit his mindset for what a team should be (Cammelleri and O'Sullivan as examples) and made bold and aggressive moves when needed (Richards, Carter and Gaborik). He made sure players were developed properly, even overdeveloped if needed (Voynov). Few guys got to jump straight to the big show and if they did, they generally were immensely qualified (Doughty).
I wouldn't want the 1st overall pick frankly. Yeah, it'd be nice to have, but you also have to question what that stigma does to the players there. How does it feel to be the worse team in the league? No one is worse than you. That can't feel great for guys like Myers, Ennis, Girgensens, Ristolainen, etc. that are likely to be core players for that team. If I was Buffalo I'd hope to not finish last. Everyone, even beat writers from Edmonton, predicted they'd be the worse team in the league, so to not be dead last by a country mile is exceeding expectations. The boost in self-esteem and team morale is something that can't be ignored or miscalculated.
If the draft was today, the Sabres would still be drafting 5th overall. That's still easily good enough to get a really good player.
Since the lockout, the only 1st overall pick to win a cup is Patrick Kane, and he's won two. Prior to the lockout?
Crosby has won one Stanley Cup. Ovechkin has never won one. Fluery won one with Crosby. Nash is still ringless. Kovalchuk never won a cup. Dipietro never sniffed a cup. Same with Stefan. Lecavalier has one. Thornton's still looking for a cup. So Phillips. Berard never did get a cup. Looks like Jovanovski never will either. Daigle sure won't. Hamrlik didn't. Lindros didn't. Nolan didn't. Sundin didn't. Modano won one.
So since the 1988 draft, five 1st overall picks have ever won a Stanley Cup, and only one has won two. Two of those players won the cup on the same team (Fluery and Crosby).
Don't get 1st overall pick obsessed. It's not all its cracked up to be even if the prize is McDavichel.
KingsFan7824
Registered User
- Dec 4, 2003
- 19,537
- 7,615
I'm sure everyone had their own personal opinions.
Management has a bigger picture in mind, but coaches and players are there to win games. Watching the Kings between 06-07 and 08-09, when they were a bottom 5 team each year, knowing they weren't going to be good, having no illusions that they would be good, you don't worry too much about wins and losses as a fan. Part of you knows that for the greater good of the franchise, a loss might be better, but at the same time, the players are paid a lot of money to show up and give a professional effort, and they don't care about some unknown 18 year old when they have their own family to take care of, so you can't knock them if they win.
Drafts are a crap shoot, obviously. If you know your team isn't going to be good heading into a season, you watch the year play out, and then you just hope that management knows what they're doing at the draft. You have to get a bit lucky every now and then when it comes to that too.
It takes more than just a high pick or two to ultimately win. You look at the 3 top 5 picks the Kings had, Hickey was lost on waivers, Doughty is obviously still here, and Schenn was traded. Look at the Nordiques back in the day. Sundin, Nolan, and Lindros were all traded before they ever won a Cup.
Lombardi's first trade with the Kings was Demitra for O'Sullivan and a pick in 2006. That pick ended up being Lewis, and O'Sullivan was dealt a few years later for Williams. Both Williams and Lewis have been big contributors to Cup wins. Lombardi's 2nd trade was getting Johnson from Carolina in the late summer of 2006. A few years later, Johnson ends up being the major piece in getting Carter, but only because Lombardi drafted Voynov in the 2nd round, and he developed into a legitimate defenseman.
So many things go into building a team, over a number of years, with twists and turns, and unpredictable events, that I don't think you can be upset at wins, but you can't want losses either. All you can do is hope management puts itself in a position where they're able to take advantage of the given situation they find themselves in, because things are always changing. It's like the rest of life. So much of it is about timing. If you have options, you can wait for the right time.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
From a personal account, I know some Kings fans were pissed off at Brian Willsie for tying the game up at 1-1 in the second to last game against the Sharks and were annoyed that Kopitar beat the Sharks and blamed him for losing the Kings' ability to draft Stamkos.
Here's the box score of the game I'm referencing:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/200804030LAK.html
And video:
Anyhow, most of us realized the situation the team was in, as the picture was painted clear by Lombardi with his actions at the 2006 draft:
We all knew the team needed a rebuild and accepted (or resigned) to the fact that this was going to take a couple of years. While the rebuild officially kicked off in 2006 with Lombardi's arrival, we felt like 2008, the Doughty draft, was the turning point. They took major steps in improving in 2008-09, and by 2009-10, the Kings were a playoff team.
It took Lombardi four seasons to turn them into playoff contenders, and in his sixth season as GM he put together a Cup winning team. The Kings' rebuild was nothing like the long years of failure that we're witnessing with a team like Edmonton, or Chicago from the late 90s through the late 2000s.
Here's the box score of the game I'm referencing:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/200804030LAK.html
And video:
Anyhow, most of us realized the situation the team was in, as the picture was painted clear by Lombardi with his actions at the 2006 draft:
We all knew the team needed a rebuild and accepted (or resigned) to the fact that this was going to take a couple of years. While the rebuild officially kicked off in 2006 with Lombardi's arrival, we felt like 2008, the Doughty draft, was the turning point. They took major steps in improving in 2008-09, and by 2009-10, the Kings were a playoff team.
It took Lombardi four seasons to turn them into playoff contenders, and in his sixth season as GM he put together a Cup winning team. The Kings' rebuild was nothing like the long years of failure that we're witnessing with a team like Edmonton, or Chicago from the late 90s through the late 2000s.
The best thing Buffalo can have right now is an owner that wants to win and is willing to open their wallet to do so. The Kings didn't get to do a true rebuild until AEG basically let them.
ibleedkings
Rob Fake
I never heard that heard the exact opposite, and in respect to Demitra I wouldn't label him next to that sorry pos Sean Avery!
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
From what I recall hearing it wasn't so much Demitra was a bad apple but that some of the guys on the team pretty much only hung out with their own country mates. Lubo was one of the next big guys moved when the Kings were rebuilding, so I think there may have been some substance to that theory.
go4hockey
Registered User
I think Dean would have still drafted Drew. At the end of the 2007 season at the "breakfast with the GM" Dean pulled out a chart with all our depth at forward and how weak our defense prospects were then stood in front of the STH in the room and said "you really want me to draft a forward?" Dean loved Drew from the first day and he is just what we needed.
Yeah, I call bull ****. "Simply hoping we lose games" are exactly what I mentioned in my post about wanting your team to lose. Might as well not be a fan.
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
http://lakingsinsider.com/2014/12/10/doughty-recalls-draft-day-in-ottawa-and-a-great-link/
I can't seem to find the article but there was one about one of those early meetings where Lombardi was asking Doughty about his lack of conditioning. Drew wasn't really in shape in his OHL days, but played 30+ minutes a night anyways. DL basically told Drew then that if he would commit to getting in shape that the Kings would take him if he was still on the board at their pick. As it turned out LA drafted 2nd and the Lightning took Stamkos. Doughty had made a commitment to working out more and taking care of himself more like a pro athlete, and the Kings drafted him.
