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(Q) What has more life on it?: Surface of Mars or Pen's 4th line

wgknestrick

wgknestrick

Registered User
Aug 14, 2012
5,892
3,405
Surface of Mars looking to win this one. :(


Stats on the Pens 4th line (most of these stats are averages of Glass/Vitale/Adams):
I'm just putting this together to try to quantify what the 4th line does for the Pens "bottom line" in goal differential.


On ice for 1 goal for :cry:...On ice for 9 goals against :rant: at 5v5.

If 4th line could play an entire 60min game of 5v5 hockey, Pens would probably lose games by an average of 2 goals / game. This 4th line Pens team would average only .3 goals for / game. It would also be out-shot by an average of 13 shots / game.

We all know the 4th doesn't (thankfully) play an entire game. How much do they cost the Pens / game currently? Assuming an average of 7 min / game of 5v5 ice time, the Pens are giving up about .23 goals/game in goal differential just due to their 4th line. That .2 goal diff is what separates the LAK from NYR currently in the goal diff standings and is also about 5 pts. Don't forget this happens in just 7 minutes.

About 4% of the 4th line's shot go in the net. Even TK laughs at this.

Pen's goalies only save 89% of the even strength shots against when the 4th line it out. League average 5v5 SV% is around 91.8. I thought these guys are supposed to be defensive "specialists". I accept they don't score, but maybe they could at least limit the shot quality against. In case you forgot, re-read how much they get outshot above. Now combine the 2. It's OK to punch something. I suggest a pillow.

:help:

Why hasn't something been done? These guys aren't expected to do much, and still do "nothing". Fielding the WBS first line would have to give better results. This thing need blooowd up.

I cannot value a single other "role" that any of these 3 guys bring to offset the absolute 5v5 black hole these guys leave for the rest of the Pens to fill. Just turning this line into a 5v5 "net zero" would be a huge improvement.
 
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I really don't know why nothing has been done by Shero to fix the obvious problems on the fourth line. Glass was an absolute horrible free agent signing, even for a guy who has never really been good at signing free agents as most end up playing horrible on the team.

Disco is an idiot, but he really does not have many options. Glass, Vitale, Adams no matter how you combine them is a poor line. Vitale is decent, but the other two need to go.

But Adams blocks shots! Glass leads the team in hits! They need to go and they've needed to go for quite some time.
 
No Wingers said:
I really don't know why nothing has been done by Shero to fix the obvious problems on the fourth line. Glass was an absolute horrible free agent signing, even for a guy who has never really been good at signing free agents as most end up playing horrible on the team.

Disco is an idiot, but he really does not have many options. Glass, Vitale, Adams no matter how you combine them is a poor line. Vitale is decent, but the other two need to go.

But Adams blocks shots! Glass leads the team in hits! They need to go and they've needed to go for quite some time.
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It is tough to isolate their crappy results to tell who it to blame. My eyes tell me Vitale at least has some skill and can be dangerous at times to "threaten" to score. I'd like to think he isn't to blame....but

The stats tell me he is worse than the other 2 (pretty much known detriments in Adams and Glass) on his line. All I know, is when Adams is leading a line in production, you are in deep, deep, deep trouble.

Pens would could not do worse, no matter what they decided to do. There could be no regrets. It can't get any worse. Glass is clearly the worse player on that line and I don't think that statement needs backed up by anything.
 
Joe Vitale is the answer: he is likely to be chosen as the first astronaut to Mars as he's getting tired of this healthy scratch BS and has other endeavors to conquer if Byslma doesn't see his worth.

Joe Vitale: Burner of Speed, Abuser of Potash, Conclave Specialist, Mars Astronaut... all before the age of 40.
 
Pghkev said:
I am mad as hell and I am not taking it no more. Somebody get me Shero's number!!
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Ooooo ok let's sit around and watch these horrible players continue to be liabilities. Shero is a genius! Tanner Glass definitely deserved a 2 year contract! Shrewd move by the super genius.

I'm not asking for perry, promote someone, make a minor trade. But this time instead of donating players get someone of value that can play on the 3rd or 4th line.
 
you have to remember that the 4th line often gets to see the best of the opposing team as well.

that said, yes, the forth line is pretty terrible.
 
The 4th line just needs (or should be able) to go out against other 4th line "pedigrees" and slightly outplay them or play even with them. They may occasionally be "caught" against top lines and will lose that battle in the long run. This is a great place IMO, not for 1 trick ponies, but for young players (ie Nate Johnson, Letestu, Hall, Jeffery, etc) to learn the ropes and get some minutes. These young guys above will always out play the Rupps, Ashams, Glass, Adams types in the long run IMO. You take the young guys and make them into PK capable players. PK forwards only see about 1min - 2min of time on 4v5. It isn't much compared to the 7min 5v5 time that they play in.

I think we are seeing Bylsma convinced that he will win the war by "trading" death blows between mismatched lines on each side. I think that is why the Pens have been subject to huge variances in defensive results and blow outs on both sides. He sends this line to the "sharks" as mentioned above in order to send his "sharks" out against the other team's 4th line. I do not feel (and hopefully proved) we don't have the 4th line personnel to trade these blows.
 
The fourth line has three humans, covered in millions of small microbes. The surface-only of Mars likely has very little living organisms. Most of Mars' life would be underground, not on the surface.

Fourth line wins.
 
Mo Wanchuk said:
4th line upgrade of Matt Hendricks would be nice.
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Even though he's UFA he means a lot to the team and I think he'll stay.

Jason Chimera though is basically Pascal Dupuis minus a little intangibles plus a little more physicality. I think they'd be more likely to deal him.
 
Skk82 said:
Even though he's UFA he means a lot to the team and I think he'll stay.

Jason Chimera though is basically Pascal Dupuis minus a little intangibles plus a little more physicality. I think they'd be more likely to deal him.
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Just to keep things in perspective

Chimera <<<<<< Dupuis. Dupuis is a top 6 wing on the highest scoring line in the NHL.

I'd rather have neither Hendricks or Chimera TTTT. They are more of the same of what we already have....Chimera is an upgrade over current personnel though for sure. I liked Park when he was here and have no idea why they didn't keep him.

I'm more into a Paul Thompson, Zack Sill, Uher etc. Get some gritty youths in there that have some ability to score and maybe a veteran guy (like Vitale). Basically take any WBS forward who isn't a pure offensive player and let em loose. It is a revolving door if you don't work out. You get sent back down to making "my salary" in WBS.

Could this really be any worse than what we have now?
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Adams has declined, he was once a good 4th liner. Glass uh yeah hes not good, not good at all. Vitale seems decent compared to those two which might not be saying much.

TK and Cooke to the 4th with Vitale, and add some 3rd liners. Winner winner chicken dinner.
 
The 4th line is awful this year, and I agree a lot of it is Tanner Glass he has terrible hands and his defense is over rated. Only thing Adams is good for is blocking shots on the PK but I will admit that is a role nonetheless.

And Im gonna be honest here. Vitale has been bad this year. I kno thats not a popular opinion around here but thats how I see it. He doesnt create many chances(im aware of his linemates) doesnt fight, can hit some but thats about it. Hes a good face off man with some grit but I dont see his legend status around here. And I dont want to hear about the healthy scratches. Hes played in majority of the games this year and has had ample time to get something going. I cant be the only one who sees that Jeffrey would offer this team more..at least from an offensive perspective.
 
You're on notice, Vitale detractors. But look, no matter what else you can say about the guy, he does 2 things that make him worth playing every night -- he's great on faceoffs, and he actually skates with some speed and intensity out there. Watching Adams/Glass skate through quicksand out there every night is just too depressing for words.
 
DoktorZaius said:
You're on notice, Vitale detractors. But look, no matter what else you can say about the guy, he does 2 things that make him worth playing every night -- he's great on faceoffs, and he actually skates with some speed and intensity out there. Watching Adams/Glass skate through quicksand out there every night is just too depressing for words.
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I'm willing to let him play it out too, but Adams and Glass have to go IMO. I don't care which 2 or 3 we fire, but it has to be more than 1. Just changing 33% of that line, will not fix it. There isn't a guy who stands out as being much, much worse than the other 2.
 
DoktorZaius said:
You're on notice, Vitale detractors. But look, no matter what else you can say about the guy, he does 2 things that make him worth playing every night -- he's great on faceoffs, and he actually skates with some speed and intensity out there. Watching Adams/Glass skate through quicksand out there every night is just too depressing for words.
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This is all true. Faceoffs Ill give you but at the same time for a guy thats so good at faceoffs when was the last time DB sent him in to take a big defensive zone faceoff? I honestly think never. So its hard to say we have to keep him in the lineup for faceoffs when in reality hes only winning a couple a night. If we need a big faceoff we have Sid and Sutter. And skating hard only gets you so far in this league. You know how many hard working intense skaters have come in and out of this league? I dont hate the guy I just need to see more. And Glass is way worse but DB wont sit him cuz we paid him decent money and he wont let Shero look stupid like that. Plus for whatever reason Dan likes Glass as his 5th PK forward even though I think thats a good role for Vitale. Honestly I just want to see Jeffrey play like 5 games straight or something and see what he can provide.
 
I think the biggest problem for that line 5 on 5 is Adams. Vitale and Glass certainly have their limitations, but Adams basically cannot carry the puck from his own blue line to the red line without being easily overtaken, either forcing an icing or a turnover.

And it won't be fixed because Adams will never be scratched or benched before Glass, let alone Vitale.
 
I still think Vitale is useful. IMO, even more with better linemates. I'm a fan of Adams for his leadership/PK, but it's time to make him the extra forward and let Glass go. Move Cooke to the 4th line, bring up a young guy for the 4th line, move TK, then go out and get two 3rd liners (or a top 6 and a bottom 6).

I know there are quite a bit of changes there, but I think Cooke/Vitale/WBS'er would be a good line. Give Sutter a couple physical forwards, one with some offense, and I think we'd be a much better team.
 
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