Provorov or Adam Fox?

[Nabrules]

You don’t base your opinion on anything but coach’s decisions and “keeping opponents honest with a physical presence” which is entirely impossible to quantify but looks pretty false when we try.

Actually no, I don’t just base my opinions on attributes other then analytics but nice try. I’m well aware Provorov analytics weren’t the best the past couple of seasons, and that’s why I cautioned other flyers fan to lower their expectations. This year his analytics are pretty darn good too which just enhances everything else he does well.

Why are u so butt hurt about me stating the truth about Provorovs good physical play? Did Provorov lay out one of your favour our players or something?

 

[Nabrules]

You don’t base your opinion on anything but coach’s decisions and “keeping opponents honest with a physical presence” which is entirely impossible to quantify but looks pretty false when we try.

Actually no, I don’t just base my opinions on attributes other then analytics but nice try. I’m well aware Provorov analytics weren’t the best the past couple of seasons, and that’s why I cautioned other flyers fan to lower their expectations. This year his analytics are pretty darn good too which just enhances everything else he does well.

Why are u so butt hurt about me stating the truth about Provorovs good physical play? Did Provorov lay out one of your favour our players or something?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

AV aLsO rUiNs YOuNG PLaYErS!!!!!!!!!

He did with the last few teams he coached.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Adam Fox and Ivan Provorov have played 16:49 against one another at 5-on-5 this season.

In those minutes, neither team scored a goal, but the Flyers have 33.33% CF and 16.20% xGF.

Eh, might wanna contextualize that tiny sample size for you:

The Flyers won those three games by a combined score of 15 to 6 and held at least a one-goal lead for 97 of the 180 minutes (and multiple goal leads for about 80 of those). So, yeah, I'd figure the trailing team's best offensive-defenseman and the leading team's best overall defenseman would see some icetime against each other in those situations, with one team playing to preserve a lead and the other playing serious catchup.

The closest final score was actually the last game the two played, where the Flyers were up 4-0 in the first 22 minutes and then just sat back and got shelled for the remaining 38, letting the Rangers get three in the process. The Flyers whole team CF% in that contest was 34.3%.

 

[Nabrules]

He did with the last few teams he coached.

He did a marvellous job with Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, Bieksa and Edler in Vancouver.

If you’re referring to NY then I’ll leave they to your discretion but just from an outside perspective they didn’t have many good young players during his time there.

 

[Nabrules]

He did with the last few teams he coached.

He did a marvellous job with Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, Bieksa and Edler in Vancouver.

If you’re referring to NY then I’ll leave they to your discretion but just from an outside perspective they didn’t have many good young players during his time there.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Actually no, I don’t just base my opinions on attributes other then analytics but nice try. I’m well aware Provorov analytics weren’t the best the past couple of seasons, and that’s why I cautioned other flyers fan to lower their expectations. This year his analytics are pretty darn good too which just enhances everything else he does well.

Why are u so butt hurt about me stating the truth about Provorovs good physical play? Did Provorov lay out one of your favour our players or something?

I’m not butt hurt about you mentioning Provorov’s physical play. I’m saying that it’s rather telling that the only thing that you have cited, outside of things that are entirely coach’s decisions, is that Provorov “keeps opponents honest with his physical play”, and that the facts show that Provorov actually hits players at a below average rate.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Actually no, I don’t just base my opinions on attributes other then analytics but nice try. I’m well aware Provorov analytics weren’t the best the past couple of seasons, and that’s why I cautioned other flyers fan to lower their expectations. This year his analytics are pretty darn good too which just enhances everything else he does well.

Why are u so butt hurt about me stating the truth about Provorovs good physical play? Did Provorov lay out one of your favour our players or something?

I’m not butt hurt about you mentioning Provorov’s physical play. I’m saying that it’s rather telling that the only thing that you have cited, outside of things that are entirely coach’s decisions, is that Provorov “keeps opponents honest with his physical play”, and that the facts show that Provorov actually hits players at a below average rate.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Eh, might wanna contextualize that tiny sample size for you:

The Flyers won those three games by a combined score of 15 to 6 and held at least a one-goal lead for 97 of the 180 minutes (and multiple goal leads for about 80 of those). So, yeah, I'd figure the trailing team's best offensive-defenseman and the leading team's best overall defenseman would see some icetime against each other in those situations, with one team playing to preserve a lead and the other playing serious catchup.

The closest final score was actually the last game the two played, where the Flyers were up 4-0 in the first 22 minutes and then just sat back and got shelled for the remaining 38, letting the Rangers get three in the process. The Flyers whole team CF% in that contest was 34.3%.

You can apply a score-adjustment to those numbers and it’s not going to change the fact that Provorov got f***ing caved in when Fox was on the ice. Yes, it’s a tiny sample and I don’t actually really care about it, nor did I bring it up. Somebody else brought it up as a deflection to my asking why the Rangers are a better team with Fox on the ice than the Flyers are with Provorov on the ice.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He did a marvellous job with Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, Bieksa and Edler in Vancouver.

If you’re referring to NY then I’ll leave they to your discretion but just from an outside perspective they didn’t have many good young players during his time there.

I’m not an expert on his time with Vancouver, but what I read was very negative. I’ll let their fans give a more informed opinion than me on that.

It’s easy to say he didn’t have much talent in NY, but then you see how players such as Hayes, Miller, DeAngelo and Buchnevich all played their best hockey when he was no longer their coach. This was so much so that he insisted on bringing Hayes with him to Philly.

 

[BritainStix]

Hey Konecny might break 50 points next year...

 

[Nabrules]

Hey Konecny might break 50 points next year...

LOL that guy was defs one of those “Couturier is an average 3C” type of fan

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Hey Konecny might break 50 points next year...

I never said anything about how many points Konecny would score in the future, you’re confusing me with somebody else.

LOL that guy was defs one of those “Couturier is an average 3C” type of fan

Ironically I actually think Couturier is a top-5 player in the NHL.

 

[aufheben]

Do people also have a problem with these same stats when they support Sean Couturier being a top-5 center?

 

[aufheben]

Do people also have a problem with these same stats when they support Sean Couturier being a top-5 center?

 

[Sasso09]

Wow, no one takes me seriously because of something I never said. Meanwhile, everybody takes you seriously with your "I'm actually a Hawks fan, but Giroux is better than Toews" gimmick.

#1 you did say Konecny was a third liner, FACT
#2 i am a Hawks fan, FACT
#3 Giroux is and always was better than Toews, FACT

You literally can't make a factual post.

 

[Sasso09]

Numbers tell a different story.

As does the eye test. I'd argue Fox is better defensively than he is offensively.

Numbers don't lie at all. Fox is extremely sheltered and puts up worse Corsi than Provorov does while playing the 8th most minutes in the league against the best of the best every shift. There's no argument to be had. You can't even begin to compare the numbers when the work load is that significantly different.

 

[Sasso09]

Arguing about defencemen is a fundamental waste of time. Nobody in this thread is equipped to make this argument based on the eye test, because nobody has watched the number of Flyers and Rangers games while isolating on the two players and having a trained enough eye to notice subtle things like positioning and zone exits and account for visual biases like goaltending. So instead they're just deferring to reputation and hearsay that's based on very little

One side is saying Provorov is elite because I say so, because he has a reputation for it, and because his coach plays him a lot. You do not have any tools to talk about defencemen other than vague buzzwords and time on ice, which isn't even a stat that measures how a player performs!

The other side is bringing actual information to the table - about how Provorov actually isn't very good at preventing chances against or driving offence in any way, about how his teammate quality outweighs the impact of facing "tough competition", etc. But it doesn't matter at all because all that matters is reputation.

Here's something factual. Provorov is a 1D, Fox is a sheltered 4D

 

[Sasso09]

You have a very strong opinion here - so strong that you believe anybody who disagrees with this opinion is not worth talking to.

Surely, some evidence must have led you to this very strong opinion.

Why don't you share it with us?

Provorov does better with infinitely tougher minutes and isn't sheltered and hidden from a defensive role by an NHL coach that makes millions of dollars for his expertise.

That should be enough for you. You're really trying to argue a #4D over a top 15 D in the league. It's nuts... There's a reason this poll will be closed soon.

 

[Sasso09]

Who in their right mind thinks Adam Fox is better than Provorov now.

No one but people are bored enough to pretend because they're stuck indoors going stir crazy.

 

[Sasso09]

Who in their right mind thinks Adam Fox is better than Provorov now.

No one but people are bored enough to pretend because they're stuck indoors going stir crazy.

You literally cannot help yourself.

1. As I have said over and over again, time on ice is not a sufficient way to compare two players. The coach does not decide who the better player is, unless you think that Chabot is the league's best defenceman. The coach of the Rangers deciding not to run a rookie into the ground and preferring the high-priced player with pedigree in Trouba doesn't mean anything about the relative quality of the players.

2. Fox is a rookie, it is not a fault of his if Quinn would rather play Staal and Trouba on the penalty kill than a rookie.

3. Provorov is a shitty penalty killer, so AV probably shouldn't trust him there.

4. I'm not a Rangers fan.

If the only way we have to compare defencemen is "whose coach thinks he's the best" then we truly don't know how to talk about hockey.

5. I'm just telling you what the evidence says.

you can go ahead and say it again, every time you say it you get laughed at.

Fox is a 22 year old rookie and is getting 4D minutes....

Provorov's rookie year at 19 he was getting top pairing minutes and has continued to do so throughout.

16-17, 19 years old 21:59 #1/2
17-18, 20 years old 24:09 #1
18-19, 21 years old 25:07 #1
19-20, 22 years old 24:51 #1

Another poor excuse, keep them coming.

 

[Machinehead]

IF you don't think Provorov is better defensively than Fox you're not worth talking to.

There's nothing to indicate that it's some bizarre take.

Fox puts up metrics that place him among the elite defensemen in the NHL. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. He's really on his own island.

Nobody is saying he actually is the best or anything like that but it shouldn't be dismissed either.

People say "take the analytics with a grain of salt" but nobody actually does that. They're still being completely dismissed.

 

[Sasso09]

You can apply a score-adjustment to those numbers and it’s not going to change the fact that Provorov got f***ing caved in when Fox was on the ice. Yes, it’s a tiny sample and I don’t actually really care about it, nor did I bring it up. Somebody else brought it up as a deflection to my asking why the Rangers are a better team with Fox on the ice than the Flyers are with Provorov on the ice.

Fact still remains that Flyers with Provorov have dominated Fox with Rangers every single time. You can hide behind meaningless numbers all you want.

 

[Sasso09]

I am entirely indifferent towards the Flyers. The fact that Flyers fans perceive my opinions as being those of a Flyers troll or hater or whatever show how badly they overrate their own players outside of Couturier.

You literally shit on every single Flyers player, every single time.

 

[Sasso09]

I never said anything about how many points Konecny would score in the future, you’re confusing me with somebody else.



Ironically I actually think Couturier is a top-5 player in the NHL.

That's because you're a delusional advanced stats guy that can't see any other context. You rely solely on those numbers. You need to supplement them not lead with them blindly.

Couturier is severely underrated but top 5 player in the league might be a stretch, there's a ton of great players in the league.