Powerplay Specialists

[MS]

I've always wondered why we don't see more 'specialist' skill players, especially when almost every team is willing to carry an enforcer, something which has a highly questionable positive impact. You'd think you'd see poor offensive teams adding this type of player more often rather than failing with middling offensive players on the PP.

With that in mind, decided to create a thread on the subject to get input on who people think were some of the more notable guys who hung around the NHL in this type of role. Two guys stand out for me :

- JF Sauve of the Quebec Nordiques. Supremely skilled 5'6" scorer who lit up the QMJHL in the late 1970s and played for the Nordiques in the mid-1980s. Played the PP with the likes of Stastny and Goulet, but pretty much sat on the bench otherwise. In 1985-86, he scored 56 points almost without touching the ice 5-on-5 ... was on the ice for 74 Quebec goals that year, 64 of which (86%) were on the powerplay.

- Tommy Sjodin, who played for Minnesota and Quebec in the early 1990s. Small defender with sick skills on the point on the PP. On the ice for 90 Minnesota goals in 1992-93, 70 of which (78%) were on the PP. Incidentally, Sjodin is basically the Swedish Chris Chelios - still going strong in the SEL last year at the age of 43, 25 years after making his pro debut.

And of course there are many other examples - St. Louis-era Cliff Ronning, Andy Delmore, Petteri Nummelin, a defender in the '70s named Ab Demarco, and so on.

Curious to know if pnep has the numbers in his ridiculous database for the highest percentage of PP goals/total goals for players in a single season, as calculated above ... would make for some interesting discussion, I think.

Click to read more...

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

I currently live in the city where Tommy Sjödin has played for the last few years, and I believe local news reports have said that he will now retire. The comparison to Chelios is fitting as far as attitude towards the game go.

 

[Koivu84*]

Dave Andreychuk scored 274 of 640 (42.8%) of his career goals on the Powerplay. That's more than Brett Hull.

 

[ck26]

Weird question.

Players who can score goals or pass but can't do anything else aren't specialists ... they're standard 1st liners. I would argue Jason Spezza and Ilya Kovalchuk fit this definition. What you're basically asking is for a skilled 4th liner? ... but one who isn't that good? Very strange niche.

You've also gotta figure out roster positions. Most enforcers are forwards ... 12th forwards. It's much easier to waste a 4th line spot on a specialist than it is to waste a 3rd pairing spot. And if your powerplay specialist is a forward ... what are you doing with him? Is he playing the point on the powerplay? You're using a defensively-inept forward as your point man? Jordan Staal says hello.

Even mediocre teams can find 6 fairly productive forwards. If you don't have 6 forwards who can score, then whatever productive offensive forwards you have are going to be your 1st liners, not your 4th liners.

 

[Lard_Lad]

Curious to know if pnep has the numbers in his ridiculous database for the highest percentage of PP goals/total goals for players in a single season, as calculated above ... would make for some interesting discussion, I think.

After a little playing with the search at hockey-reference.com (sorting by PPG in various ranges of total goals scored), here's the leaders for players with more than 10 PPG in a season:

92.9% Doug Bodger, 87-88 (13/14)
91.7 Alexei Zhitnik, 93-14 (11/12)
88.9 Yvan Cournoyer, 65-66 (16/18)
81.3 J.F. Sauve, 85-86 (13/16)
80.0 Cournoyer, 66-67 (20/25)
80.0 Dion Phaneuf, 05-06 (16/20)
80.0 Risto Siltanen, 83-84 (12/15)

Marcel Dionne has the highest percentage for a 30+ goal season (71.0), Andreychuk for 40+ (68.3), Joe Nieuwendyk for 50+ (60.8), Mario for 60+ (44.9).

 

[MS]

Weird question.

Players who can score goals or pass but can't do anything else aren't specialists ... they're standard 1st liners. I would argue Jason Spezza and Ilya Kovalchuk fit this definition. What you're basically asking is for a skilled 4th liner? ... but one who isn't that good? Very strange niche.

You've also gotta figure out roster positions. Most enforcers are forwards ... 12th forwards. It's much easier to waste a 4th line spot on a specialist than it is to waste a 3rd pairing spot. And if your powerplay specialist is a forward ... what are you doing with him? Is he playing the point on the powerplay? You're using a defensively-inept forward as your point man? Jordan Staal says hello.

Even mediocre teams can find 6 fairly productive forwards. If you don't have 6 forwards who can score, then whatever productive offensive forwards you have are going to be your 1st liners, not your 4th liners.

It's a odd niche, but there have been more than a few players in recent history who fit this description. Petteri Nummelin is one playing in the NHL right now. Jaroslav Balastic was another recent NHLer who was basically a PP/shootout specialist. Rob Brown was used this way in his 2nd Pittsburgh incarnation.

After a little playing with the search at hockey-reference.com (sorting by PPG in various ranges of total goals scored), here's the leaders for players with more than 10 PPG in a season:

92.9% Doug Bodger, 87-88 (13/14)
91.7 Alexei Zhitnik, 93-14 (11/12)
88.9 Yvan Cournoyer, 65-66 (16/18)
81.3 J.F. Sauve, 85-86 (13/16)
80.0 Cournoyer, 66-67 (20/25)
80.0 Dion Phaneuf, 05-06 (16/20)
80.0 Risto Siltanen, 83-84 (12/15)

Marcel Dionne has the highest percentage for a 30+ goal season (71.0), Andreychuk for 40+ (68.3), Joe Nieuwendyk for 50+ (60.8), Mario for 60+ (44.9).

A couple names there are the sort of guy I'm looking for ... 1965-67 Cournoyer was pretty clearly a PP specialist, as was Siltanen at points during his career. Sauve pops up again, as well.

But again, most of those guys are just good PP players who also take a regular top-6/top-4 shift.

 

[Heat McManus]

It's a odd niche, but there have been more than a few players in recent history who fit this description. Petteri Nummelin is one playing in the NHL right now. Jaroslav Balastic was another recent NHLer who was basically a PP/shootout specialist. Rob Brown was used this way in his 2nd Pittsburgh incarnation.



A couple names there are the sort of guy I'm looking for ... 1965-67 Cournoyer was pretty clearly a PP specialist, as was Siltanen at points during his career. Sauve pops up again, as well.

But again, most of those guys are just good PP players who also take a regular top-6/top-4 shift.

A PP "Specialist" is different than somebody who is just damn good on the man-advantage. A specialist rides the pine until a certain situation arises.

Yvan Counoyer played a lot of minutes for the Habs, not just PP.

 

[MS]

A PP "Specialist" is different than somebody who is just damn good on the man-advantage. A specialist rides the pine until a certain situation arises.

Yvan Counoyer played a lot of minutes for the Habs, not just PP.

Obviously for the majority of his career, Cournoyer was an elite player who logged heavy minutes 5-on-5 for Montreal.

I was referring to 1965-67 Cournoyer, though, in his first two full NHL seasons. Cournoyer scored 43 goals over those two years, and 36 of them were on the PP. Only 7 ES goals over a two-season span. I think it's fair to say he was a 'specialist' player at that early stage of his career.

 

[pitseleh]

Obviously for the majority of his career, Cournoyer was an elite player who logged heavy minutes 5-on-5 for Montreal.

I was referring to 1965-67 Cournoyer, though, in his first two full NHL seasons. Cournoyer scored 43 goals over those two years, and 36 of them were on the PP. Only 7 ES goals over a two-season span. I think it's fair to say he was a 'specialist' player at that early stage of his career.

Yep, Pelletier confirms this:

But in his first years Yvan was used exclusively as a power play specialist. As a rookie he scored seven goals in 55 games. In his second year (1965-66) Yvan scored 16 of his 18 goals on the PP. The following season he scored 20 of his 25 goals with the man advantage. Yvan eventually scored over 150 power play goals during his NHL career.

http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2006/07/yvan-cournoyer.html

 

[Big Phil]

I dont know the exact stats but I would get the impression that Mike Ribeiro would have racked up quite a few PP points early in his career. He certainly wasnt a first liner but even in his rookie season was always on the power play

 

[Peter9]

A PP "Specialist" is different than somebody who is just damn good on the man-advantage. A specialist rides the pine until a certain situation arises.

Yvan Counoyer played a lot of minutes for the Habs, not just PP.

________________________


You are right with respect to most of Cournoyer's career. But Cournoyer was used almost exclusively on the power play during his first few seasons in the NHL under coach Toe Blake, particularly those seasons noted above where he scored a huge percentage of his goals on the power play, 1965-66 and 1966-67.

In his first two or three seasons, Cournoyer took a place on one of the regular lines only when one of the other forwards was injured. Blake gave him more time on regular shifts in his last season as coach in 1967-68, but only when Claude Ruel took the coaching reins after Blake retired did Cournoyer take a regular shift on a permanent basis. It was said that Blake did not trust Yvan's defensive skills sufficiently to play him on a regular line. Blake also said he did not want to place too much pressure on the young player.

I know this to be true because I have followed the Canadiens since 1953 and often saw them play throughout Cournoyer's career, including his first few seasons.

 

[Peter9]

Sorry, I got excited and responded before noting that later messages said the same thing I did. I'll be more careful in the future.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Early (sixties) Cournoyer is the first guy I thought of. Limited regular shift under Toe Blake, and with caution by Claude Ruel. He became a very solid two way player after that.

I wonder how many other teams would have had an issue with his defence?

 

[Oilers1*]

Robert Reichel was the first guy who came to mind when I opened this thread. But he's another guy who probably fits more as a mediocre second-liner with good PP skills than a 'specialist'.

How about John Slaney? In his few cups of coffee in the NHL, I don't think he ever saw much 5-on-5 time, but did have a couple good runs on the power-play in a few cities.

 

[billbillbill]

Andy Delmore would be the ultimate recent example. Either him or pre-lockout Dick Tarnstrom.

Looks like that might be Marc-Andre Bergeron's future as well.

 

[MXD]

The Niche? Basically somebody with good puck control and/or shooting and/or passing skills, which is lacking in a crucial domain (often speed, if not, defensive/physical strength to play 20 mins or 25 mins per game (if it's a F or a D...) without being... Kovalchuck-like with the puck.

Mike Ribeiro was exactly this in Montreal. Great vision, great passer, above average anticipation, and deceiving wrister. He was slow, weak and useless defensively, and didn't had the experience to shield those flaws. He gained experience, was able to somewhat shield those flaws (by gaining experience, and by his good hockey sense).

Pierre Dagenais was a bit like this as well (but only the shooting part though).

Tommy Sjodin? Wasn't he like... really undersized?

Some others had sorta similar skillsets. Reijo Ruotsalainen comes to mind, but the guy was so fast that he was able to sorta play defense in spite of size problems, and the fact he wasn't the best defensive player anyways.

Right now, a team could make a bet for Glen Murray to play the specialist role. Funny that the B's signed Ryder to play kindof the exact same role : unless he manages to put all together again... the guy just cannot control the damn puck.

Mark Streit? His hockey sense alone makes him more valuable than as a specialist.

I'd even go to say that IF Kovalev had less hockey sense (not great for a guy, considering his skills) or less puck skills, he would be a pure PP specialist.

I cannot remember if Kjell Dahlin was used this way towards the end of his short stint with Montreal.

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

When I opened this up I thought of Cliff Ronning and Dan Quinn.

 

[overpass]

Here's another way to look at this - look at the goals the player was on the ice for. The list below is sorted by PGF/TGF (power play goals for that the player was on the ice for divided by total goals for that the player was on the ice for.)

Name | Year |Team | GP | TGF | PGF | %
SAUVE, J.F. | 1986 | QUE | 75 | 74 | 64 | 86%
SJODIN, TOMMY | 1993 | MNS | 77 | 90 | 70 | 78%
WILSON, RON L | 1979 |TOR |46 |36 | 28 | 78%
TAMBELLINI, STEVE | 1987 | VAN | 72 | 67 | 49 | 73%
ANDREYCHUK, DAVE | 2003 | TBL | 72 | 64 |46 | 72%
GEOFFRION, BERNARD | 1968 |NYR | 59 | 42 | 30 | 71%
DIONNE, MARCEL | 1988 | NYR | 67 | 90 | 63 | 70%
NEDOMANSKY, VACLAV | 1983 | NYR | 57 | 50 | 35 | 70%
DELMORE, ANDY | 2003 | NAS | 71 | 66 | 46 | 70%
EKLUND, PELLE | 1986 | PHI | 70 | 88 | 61 | 69%
SPEZZA, JASON |2003 | OTT | 33 | 32 |22 | 69%
O'CALLAHAN, JACK | 1989 | NJD | 36 | 49 | 33 | 67%
SIMON, CHRIS | 2001 | WAS | 60 | 49 |33 | 67%
SAUVE, J.F. | 1984 |QUE |39 | 39 |26 |67%
JOHNSON, MARK | 1987 | NJD | 68 | 86 | 57 | 66%
STREIT, MARK | 2006 | MTL |48 | 38 | 25 | 66%
SACHARUK, LARRY |1976 | NYR | 42 | 32 | 21 | 66%
YOUNG, SCOTT | 2006 | STL |79 | 78 | 51 | 65%
ROUSSEAU, BOBBY |1974 | NYR | 72 | 75 | 49 | 65%
OUELLET, MICHEL |2006 | PIT | 50 | 49 |32 | 65%
GARDNER, PAUL | 1983 | PIT | 70 | 82 | 53 |65%

Most of these guys probably weren't true powerplay specialists, more like 4th liners at even strength and on the 1st power play unit. Sauve and Sjodin stand out at the top of the list.

 

[MS]

Here's another way to look at this - look at the goals the player was on the ice for. The list below is sorted by PGF/TGF (power play goals for that the player was on the ice for divided by total goals for that the player was on the ice for.)

Name | Year |Team | GP | TGF | PGF | %
SAUVE, J.F. | 1986 | QUE | 75 | 74 | 64 | 86%
SJODIN, TOMMY | 1993 | MNS | 77 | 90 | 70 | 78%
WILSON, RON L | 1979 |TOR |46 |36 | 28 | 78%
TAMBELLINI, STEVE | 1987 | VAN | 72 | 67 | 49 | 73%
ANDREYCHUK, DAVE | 2003 | TBL | 72 | 64 |46 | 72%
GEOFFRION, BERNARD | 1968 |NYR | 59 | 42 | 30 | 71%
DIONNE, MARCEL | 1988 | NYR | 67 | 90 | 63 | 70%
NEDOMANSKY, VACLAV | 1983 | NYR | 57 | 50 | 35 | 70%
DELMORE, ANDY | 2003 | NAS | 71 | 66 | 46 | 70%
EKLUND, PELLE | 1986 | PHI | 70 | 88 | 61 | 69%
SPEZZA, JASON |2003 | OTT | 33 | 32 |22 | 69%
O'CALLAHAN, JACK | 1989 | NJD | 36 | 49 | 33 | 67%
SIMON, CHRIS | 2001 | WAS | 60 | 49 |33 | 67%
SAUVE, J.F. | 1984 |QUE |39 | 39 |26 |67%
JOHNSON, MARK | 1987 | NJD | 68 | 86 | 57 | 66%
STREIT, MARK | 2006 | MTL |48 | 38 | 25 | 66%
SACHARUK, LARRY |1976 | NYR | 42 | 32 | 21 | 66%
YOUNG, SCOTT | 2006 | STL |79 | 78 | 51 | 65%
ROUSSEAU, BOBBY |1974 | NYR | 72 | 75 | 49 | 65%
OUELLET, MICHEL |2006 | PIT | 50 | 49 |32 | 65%
GARDNER, PAUL | 1983 | PIT | 70 | 82 | 53 |65%

Most of these guys probably weren't true powerplay specialists, more like 4th liners at even strength and on the 1st power play unit. Sauve and Sjodin stand out at the top of the list.

Awesome - that's exactly the list I was looking for and the statistic I cited in the first post. Some interesting names there.

4th liners who play on the #1 PP unit are the definition of PP specialists, no?

 

[Sadekuuro]

Jiri Hudler is perhaps becoming this type of player for the Red Wings.

 

[Al Bundy*]

How about Phil Housley?

This is a guy who once led the entire NHL in power-play points- more than Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull or Messier.

Has any other defenseman ever led the NHL in power-play points?

 

[a79krgm]

I've always wondered why we don't see more 'specialist' skill players, especially when almost every team is willing to carry an enforcer, something which has a highly questionable positive impact. You'd think you'd see poor offensive teams adding this type of player more often rather than failing with middling offensive players on the PP.

- Tommy Sjodin, who played for Minnesota and Quebec in the early 1990s. Small defender with sick skills on the point on the PP. On the ice for 90 Minnesota goals in 1992-93, 70 of which (78%) were on the PP. Incidentally, Sjodin is basically the Swedish Chris Chelios - still going strong in the SEL last year at the age of 43, 25 years after making his pro debut.

Oh, I haven't heard that name in a long time. I remember seeing Sjodin's first game in Minnesota. He showed great hands, but had nothing else to offer at defense.

We had another North Star defender who came to Minny for the same purpose a few years earlier. His name was Ron Wilson. He was a great passer and he could execute D-to-D passes faster than an eye blink. I never would have thought he would turn himself into a such a successful coach in the future.

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

it's tough because most guys that can score on the PP, you figure are good for some goals with even strength.

I'm thinking of situations where guys would solely come out on the ice for PP because they were hurt.. like Jagr in '06 playoffs.