Possible reasons Subban left off Team Canada

[aufheben]

Well, Montreal finished ahead of Nashville in the overall standings every season except last since Bergevin took over the team. Montreal's accumulated 28 more points in the standings during that stretch despite a disaster year last year, and also won 3 playoff series to Nashville's 1. Not to mention Bergevin's Stanley Cup ring with the Hawks. Nothing against Poile, but night and day? Really?

Yeah last season when the Preds were a contender, like they are again this season. If there's one team I really trust when evaluating defensemen it's the Nashville Predators AINEC. Hamhuis, Weber, Klein, Suter, Josi, Ekholm, Jones, Ellis. They knew what they were doing trading Weber.

 

[janesy12]

This is a silly thread. Weber is there for his shot and because he's a stay at home defender.


Idk why this thread is a thing and not a letang Giordano or Brodie thread. Is it just because since he was traded from Montreal everyone weirdly loves subban?

Yes and all of a sudden the entire Habs fan base seems to dislike Subban.... weird how that works eh?

 

[Uhmkay]

Team Canada almost always picks dmen that are very solid defensively first who also have offensive upside. Every other dman on the team besides Vlasic are also very good offensively. Why would you replace one of them for a guy who has shown that he's going to play his way rather than do better on defence?

Every other dman on the team has shown that they're willing to put the team first. And I'm going to guess that there is also a little bit of a drama issue with PK or he rubs people the wrong way and don't want that mix on the team.

I'd also have taken Letang before Subban as well.

 

[Seanaconda]

Yes and all of a sudden the entire Habs fan base seems to dislike Subban.... weird how that works eh?

I'm not a montreal fan my opinion on subban hasn't changed I've always thought he's slightly overrated by some. Def a number one dman but not a top 5 in the world. Somewhere in the top 10 -15

 

[Jigger77]

Yeah last season when the Preds were a contender, like they are again this season. If there's one team I really trust when evaluating defensemen it's the Nashville Predators AINEC.

Well then, had I known you had such convincing arguments to support the claim that Poile is night and day over Bergevin I would not have asked!

I can't blame you for liking your GM and me liking ours though. But there's no way Poile is "night and day" over Bergevin. Results indicate the opposite if anything.

 

[aufheben]

Yes building a contender is good actually. He's not my GM either, any neutral fan wouldn't even think about twice about it.

 

[Jigger77]

Yes building a contender is good actually. He's not my GM either, any neutral fan wouldn't even think about twice about it.

People can think whatever they want. End of the day Bergevin has better results both in the playoffs and regular season by a sizeable margin.

 

[MXD]

Letang, Girodano, Brodie, Seabrook and if age eligible, Ekblad are all higher on the depth chart than Subban. The reason he isn't there is simple; he's not good enough

I don't understand why people who have never played, are so sure they know what it takes to win hockey games. It's like a guy who has never driven a car telling you what parts should go into building the engine

Subban is too much of a disaster in his own zone to ever be on a Championship team. And he's too concerned about himself than about winning. Him not being picked is easy to understand. But I guess you need to understand hockey first

...And that's the other extreme, which I also happen to disagree with.

For the umpteenth time : SUBBAN IS VERY GOOD DEFENSIVELY, if defense can be interpreted as "play without the puck in view of gaining the puck". His decision-making is just not always the best and he favors the risky play. But that's mostly with-the-puck.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

..And your argument basically boils down to you think Subban was better, so he's better. EVEN MORE LOGICAL.

Right?!

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Letang, Girodano, Brodie, Seabrook and if age eligible, Ekblad are all higher on the depth chart than Subban. The reason he isn't there is simple; he's not good enough

I don't understand why people who have never played, are so sure they know what it takes to win hockey games. It's like a guy who has never driven a car telling you what parts should go into building the engine

Subban is too much of a disaster in his own zone to ever be on a Championship team. And he's too concerned about himself than about winning. Him not being picked is easy to understand. But I guess you need to understand hockey first

Well, it's a bit harsh in form but very true. Subban last year was a shade of himself. Made way too many turnovers at inoportune times. Didn't hit or block shots as often either. He is no longer a top10 D in the league, he can bounce back as he's still young but he's closer to Tyson Barrie than he is to Eric Karlsson.

 

[Pandaman11]

It's gotta be the officials of Team Canada being associated with the Canadiens right? And their disdain for PK?

In no universe are Jay Bowmeester, Jake Muzzin and Marc-Edouard Vlasic better ice hockey players than PK Subban.

I hope PK comes back with a vengance against his former team and Hockey in Canada in general.

Oh god, not another I-don't-understand-the-difference-between-lefties-and-righties topic

 

[Seanaconda]

Oh god, not another I-don't-understand-the-difference-between-lefties-and-righties topic

And vlasic is a different type of defensman but arguably the best defensive dman in the league

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

PK Subban is too unpredictable and therefor isn't the safest bet to place when assembling a team to win a best-on-best tournament.

But what do they know, right?

When you're taking Jay Bouwmeester over Kris Letang, what DO you know? Not to mention, if you wanted a lefty, you have Mark Giordano and TJ Brodie sitting there for you.

 

[The Macho King]

Canada wants a very structured game. Subban is not a structured player. Just doesn't fit in with the type of team they're building.

 

[webersshot]

It's gotta be the officials of Team Canada being associated with the Canadiens right? And their disdain for PK?

In no universe are Jay Bowmeester, Jake Muzzin and Marc-Edouard Vlasic better ice hockey players than PK Subban.

I hope PK comes back with a vengance against his former team and Hockey in Canada in general.

No but they play the left side, which is an important attribute to babcock and rightfully so..why should we question his methods with what he's accomplished...we are witnessing probably the most or close to the most dominate team canada there has ever been. Those players have been great, and truth be told, they're probably all better defensively than PK subban. I love PK, I love his drive and his skill and his personality just like everyone else, but vengeance against hockey in canada? ok

 

[oilerbear]

It's a LHD-RHD thing.

Brodie and Letang were 2 guys I thought might have added some good mobility to this team.

the most mobile thing is the puck.
Ie a Pass.

You do not want Dmen skating up the puck; allowing the opposition to set-up a walled trap for preventing zone entry. then allowing them time to compress around the HSCA preventing penetration and shots from the HSCA area were 70-75% of goals come from.

the worst thing of all is that allowing opposition to set-up that defence means the Dman has abandoned the defence of his own HSC Area. giving a great opportunity at fre path counter attacks that penetrate and a much higher than leadue average HSCA shot rate. look at the leading Even offensive dmen in the game. just bruta HSCA shot counts and EVGA.

Subban is a brutal HSCA d.
gives up bottom 60 HSCA shot counts. 12.85+ HSCA shots/60
He plays in front of the best HSCA save% goalie price .889
yet he is the 133 Best EVGA d in the game.

Last year with
subban got
12 games of top caliber HSCA save% from price
15 games of equal caliber HSCA save% from Condon
with below league average HSCA save% goaltending he was 2.58 EVGA.
there are only 32 of 420 (#1-14 fwds0 that can genearate the 2.89 EVGF/60 to have a chance at wild card playoff position.

Weber is the #2 HSCA d man in the game.

When discussing Even offence.
top 12 forwards average 1.45 EVP/60
Dmen average .67 EVp/60

when you look at he top EVp/60 D
overall player rank for even offence.

#158 Karlsson 1.52
------------------------ #6 Player
#194 Burns 1.39 played fwd and D
------------------------#7 Player
#218 Carlson 1.32 (76% assists)
#225 Brodie 1.30
#232 Hedman 1.27
#236 Byfuglien 1.25 played Fwd and D.
----------------------- #8 Player
#247 Orlov 1.21
#247 Subban 1.21
---------------------#9 Player
bottom 60 EVGA d in Bold.

there is one dman above desired league average production rate.
but
you get to below #10 player even production rate before we see D men getting consistent EVGA/60.

if any of a teams top 9 forwards are on the ice.
it is conter productive to +ve goal differential to have a dman try to drive offence.
your top 2 Dmen should only be doing it when 4th lines are on the ice.

HSCA d period.

 

[Hockey POTUS]

...And that's the other extreme, which I also happen to disagree with.

For the umpteenth time : SUBBAN IS VERY GOOD DEFENSIVELY, if defense can be interpreted as "play without the puck in view of gaining the puck". His decision-making is just not always the best and he favors the risky play. But that's mostly with-the-puck.

Agreed. Subban is VERY good defensively. All you need to know about that is what happens when he is off the ice for the Canadiens. Habs gave up many fewer scoring chances when he was on. Had many more chances on the opposition when he was on. Therrien didn't like him but played him half the game because even he knew that the team was much better on offense and defence when Subban played.

One of the things he does very well - maybe better than any D in the league - is evade a heavy forecheck. PK could beat speedy forwards to the puck, hold them off and make a quick play to start the breakout in situations when most D would have their face against the glass.

 

[Scotty B]

I think the best argument is that subban really didn't have a great year. I would be more upset if I was a Flames fan. And piets only playing left cuz keith is injured

No it's because Muzzin was a less than ideal pick from the getgo...They brought in J-Bo to replace Keith have u forgotten already?

 

[CrypTic]

Team Canada almost always picks dmen that are very solid defensively first who also have offensive upside. Every other dman on the team besides Vlasic are also very good offensively. Why would you replace one of them for a guy who has shown that he's going to play his way rather than do better on defence?

Every other dman on the team has shown that they're willing to put the team first. And I'm going to guess that there is also a little bit of a drama issue with PK or he rubs people the wrong way and don't want that mix on the team.

I'd also have taken Letang before Subban as well.

Last season, Vlasic had more points in fewer games played than Pietrangelo or JBo. He had one less point than Muzzin (39 vs 40, both had 8 goals) but only played 67 games to Muzzin's 82 games. Why are they better offensively than Vlasic?

I would have taken Letang on the team as well. There are other things I'd have done differently too. But I'm not running TC nor have I in any way earned the right to do so.

Edit to add: Vlasic was on a 48 point pace last season. I hate pace arguments when used to compare players and realize that Vlasic might have scored fewer or more points if he'd actually played all 82 games but I don't understand why ppl keep acting like he only brings defense and other players are sooooo much better at offense than he is.

 

[Seanaconda]

Last season, Vlasic had more points in fewer games played than Pietrangelo or JBo. He had one less point than Muzzin (39 vs 40, both had 8 goals) but only played 67 games to Muzzin's 82 games. Why are they better offensively than Vlasic?

I would have taken Letang on the team as well. There are other things I'd have done differently too. But I'm not running TC nor have I in any way earned the right to do so.

Edit to add: Vlasic was on a 48 point pace last season. I hate pace arguments when used to compare players and realize that Vlasic might have scored fewer or more points if he'd actually played all 82 games but I don't understand why ppl keep acting like he only brings defense and other players are sooooo much better at offense than he is.

Is vlasics first year he has done good offensively and everyone on these boards goes crazy if you use a 1 year sample size

 

[CrypTic]

Is vlasics first year he has done good offensively and everyone on these boards goes crazy if you use a 1 year sample size

First, you're trying to guess how a player will play in this tournament. IMO how they played this year is a much better indicator of that than how they played in prior years. I understand why you'd have some hesitation if you're thinking about trading for a player but that's not what you're trying to predict here. Why would you look at how a player did three years ago to predict their play in a very short series now? It doesn't make much sense in this context IMO.

I really don't understand that when a big reason that the person's points changed was their usage, not their underlying abilities. (E.g., in 2014 Doughty said that Vlasic had a very good shot, he just didn't shoot much.) Vlasic has a new coach who wants him to contribute more offensively, which he can do if asked. He's always been good at moving the puck and passing it to forwards. That's been part of his game for a long time.

Second, Vlasic did about the same as JBo in the 2014-15 season. JBo had 24 points in 72 games, Vlasic had 23 in 70.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Yeah last season when the Preds were a contender, like they are again this season. If there's one team I really trust when evaluating defensemen it's the Nashville Predators AINEC. Hamhuis, Weber, Klein, Suter, Josi, Ekholm, Jones, Ellis. They knew what they were doing trading Weber.

Did "they" know what they were doing when they signed Rinne to a outrageous contract, and the following offseason losing Suter for nothing to UFA and exposing their franchise D to a crippling offersheet, after a long drawn out contract dispute?

Sounds like competence alright. Poile is a genius because Filip Forsberg. The guys been the game for 30 years and has had less success than Bergevin in 4.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Yes building a contender is good actually. He's not my GM either, any neutral fan wouldn't even think about twice about it.

Well they should think twice, because there isn't a shred of evidence that suggests Poile is better than Bergevin.

I know its popular opinion to hate on Bergevin, but prove to me that Poile is better. Good GMs build successful teams, so it should be easy for you.

 

[Seanaconda]

First, you're trying to guess how a player will play in this tournament. IMO how they played this year is a much better indicator of that than how they played in prior years. I understand why you'd have some hesitation if you're thinking about trading for a player but that's not what you're trying to predict here. Why would you look at how a player did three years ago to predict their play in a very short series now? It doesn't make much sense in this context IMO.

I really don't understand that when a big reason that the person's points changed was their usage, not their underlying abilities. (E.g., in 2014 Doughty said that Vlasic had a very good shot, he just didn't shoot much.) Vlasic has a new coach who wants him to contribute more offensively, which he can do if asked. He's always been good at moving the puck and passing it to forwards. That's been part of his game for a long time.

Second, Vlasic did about the same as JBo in the 2014-15 season. JBo had 24 points in 72 games, Vlasic had 23 in 70.

Tbh I love vlasic I was just saying how people on this site are I would take vlasic if he had no offense

 

[Battle Lin]

everybody should know that PK is better than most of them...but canada likes safe and boring Dmen, and let their elite forwards take care of offense