Players you think are better or worse than the evidence would suggest?

[Felidae]

Since this forum tends to be pretty rigorous in its analysis of players statistically, I'd be interested to know what are some players that you think are better or worse despite little to no evidence to back up your claim? Just based on your own knowledge and what you've seen with your own eyes.

I guess players that were propped up by better teammates are an easy target for the "worse" category. Like Esposito, Kurri.

And going the other way, players that were aesthetic like Perrault I imagine would be common answers.

But hopefully we get some more spicy takes..

Click to read more...

 

[Michael Farkas]

*cracks knuckles*

I don't do "hot takes", and I can't wait for that language to evolve out of linguistics, so I'm cautious to participate as a result of that line haha

Now, if we had a thread named, say, Michael Farkas presents: the thread of correct opinions. Well, ok...

I don't know, I'll monitor this and see...

 

[jigglysquishy]

If we are considering players who are better than their voting records/stats show I'll offer some.

Duncan Keith won 2 Norrises, but only has one more top 5 finish. But he spent a decade as a top five defensemen in the league, who was able to be a heavy-minute playoff machine. In particular, his outlet pass and defensive play contributed a lot to the Blackhawk's playoff success.

Chris Pronger has a spotty Norris record, but was the second best defensemen in the league for a decade. His playoff runs in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2010 were excellent. But he only won one Cup and no Smythe because he was a bit undisciplined.

Both were recognized as greats, but their actual trophy case is paltry in comparison to their on-ice ability.

 

[MadLuke]

Brodeur could be both.

 

[Felidae]

*cracks knuckles*

I don't do "hot takes", and I can't wait for that language to evolve out of linguistics, so I'm cautious to participate as a result of that line haha

Now, if we had a thread named, say, Michael Farkas presents: the thread of correct opinions. Well, ok...

I don't know, I'll monitor this and see...

Maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else.

But was it you who said watching footage of Gordie Howe you didnt come away as impressed considering his reputation and in comparison to a select few megastars that overlapped with his career? Or something along those lines..

 

[MS]

I'll cover both sides of this and say that Teppo Numminen was a better player than Rob Blake.

One a much better player than his awards/reputation, one a much worse player.

 

[frisco]

In the spirit of the thread, I'll make a case for my man, Gilbert Perreault:

--Statistically, is rated behind Clarke, LaFleur, Espo, Trottier and others. That being said, although Perreault had some good teammates, he was clearly and most definitely the best player on Buffalo for about a 15-year run. While the other guys played on legendary stacked teams and therefore racked up accomplishments and Cups and had unreal talent and coaching (Shero, Bowman, Arbour--wow) surrounding them, Perreault (at least compared to those guys) didn't have Orr, Parent, The Big Three, Bossy/Potvin or anything near that caliber to support him.
--Purely subjective and eye-test, but Perreault was one of the most gifted and aesthetically pleasing players to watch ever. The only player to play in the 72 Summit, 76 Canada Cup, 79 Challenge and 1981 Canada Cup, he really had a gear that no one else had even in best-on-best situations when the elite of the hockey world congregated. If he'd played in the YouTube era, his highlight reel might be more impressive than anyone (yes, I'm including McDavid, Mario, Jagr, Orr, Bure).
--Here on HOF he's rated in the 120's on the group list, I think. The majority of other best lists have him way higher. The Hockey News has him around 70 and so forth.
--Perreault is one of the very few top scorers to actually up his point/game in the playoffs vs. regular season. Considering he was the focal point of the other team's defensive schemes, that's impressive.

My Best-Carey

 

[Nick Hansen]

If we are considering players who are better than their voting records/stats show I'll offer some.

Duncan Keith won 2 Norrises, but only has one more top 5 finish. But he spent a decade as a top five defensemen in the league, who was able to be a heavy-minute playoff machine. In particular, his outlet pass and defensive play contributed a lot to the Blackhawk's playoff success.

Chris Pronger has a spotty Norris record, but was the second best defensemen in the league for a decade. His playoff runs in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2010 were excellent. But he only won one Cup and no Smythe because he was a bit undisciplined.

Both were recognized as greats, but their actual trophy case is paltry in comparison to their on-ice ability.

I'd add Henrik Lundqvist to this category. He was the most consistent and best goaltender, or atleast top 3, for about a decade. Only one Vezina to show for it while Bobrovsky has two. I mean, come on...

 

[Mike C]

Since this forum tends to be pretty rigorous in its analysis of players statistically, I'd be interested to know what are some players that you think are better or worse despite little to no evidence to back up your claim? Just based on your own knowledge and what you've seen with your own eyes.

I guess players that were propped up by better teammates are an easy target for the "worse" category. Like Esposito, Kurri.

And going the other way, players that were aesthetic like Perrault I imagine would be common answers.

But hopefully we get some more spicy takes..

Esposito propped up? You're joking right?

 

[MadLuke]

Esposito propped up? You're joking right?

In how many Top player list does Esposito feel like a very dominant 5 time Art Ross winner ?

Would seeing McDavid > Esposito shock many ? Yet Esposito outscored the closest non teammate by 56% from 69 to 75 in his 7 season prime, McDavid during his 7 season prime it is by 32%

Quick looking evidence could suggest and not taken into account WHA, Orr, etc... put Esposito in McDavid-Jagr league, maybe not that far from Lemieux, 152 pts when no one in the league score 100 pts that does not have has the chance to play with you, outscoring a legend like Bobby Hull in his prime, did Lemieux ever dominate the league that much ?

 

[McGarnagle]

If anything, Esposito is underrated because people just write him off as riding Bobby Orr's coattails and underrate his own contributions or the idea that his presence also helped Orr's scoring go up in the same way Orr helped his scoring go up during their peak from 70-75.

 

[MadLuke]

This, the thinking he is worst than evidence suggest tend to go overboard, and would be considered overrated by many by someone that think he was 95% of what his number suggests, a 2ppg cup winning playoff run being just Espo being Espo, beating Orr to the Hart trophy a couple times was mostly voters being right, playing at that all time great level competing with the small group to whom his the best non Wayne Gretzky to ever play.

 

[jigglysquishy]

This forum voted him 3rd to 7th top pre Gretzky centre. With most of that 5th through 7th being his contemporaries (Mikita/Clarke).

It's not a wild opinion to have him as best post Beliveau pre Gretzky centre (1931 through 1961 birth years). It's also not wild to have him third in the same age bracket.

If it was 1980 and we did an all time list I feel like Clarke>Esposito would be the consensus.

 

[Mike C]

In how many Top player list does Esposito feel like a very dominant 5 time Art Ross winner ?

Would seeing McDavid > Esposito shock many ? Yet Esposito outscored the closest non teammate by 56% from 69 to 75 in his 7 season prime, McDavid during his 7 season prime it his by 32%

Quick looking evidence could suggest and not taken into account WHA, Orr, etc... could put Esposito in McDavid-Jagr league, maybe not that far from Lemieux, 152 pts when no one in the league score 100 pts that does not have has the chance to play with you, outscoring a legend like Bobby Hull in his prime, did Lemieux ever dominate the league that much ?

Orr aside, Espo is top 25 all time in assists

In 67-68 Orr played half a season and Phil still went 34 and 49

As a Ranger--no Orr, no Park he went 29 in 62 the year he got traded, then 34, 38, 42 and 34. What better teammates propped him up there?

Phil has become underappreciated and undervalued as time has gone on

 

[Michael Farkas]

Maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else.

But was it you who said watching footage of Gordie Howe you didnt come away as impressed considering his reputation and in comparison to a select few megastars that overlapped with his career? Or something along those lines..

I don't know about that. I know I have had some questions about how great of a skater he was. I remember talking to VI about that. I don't think Howe as a whole was an issue for me. I'm the guy that went after Shore and Richard last top 100...

 

[maddskkilz]

Pavel Bure is ridiculously underrated. 2x 60 goal scorer and 5x 50 goal scorer (with seasons of 58 and 59 goals meaning he was ostensibly 3 goals away from being a 4x 60 goal scorer. If he could have won the Art Ross away from Jagr in 2000 he’d likely rank much higher.

Oh right. 3 of his 50 goal seasons are right in the midst of the DPE. 70 points including 35 goals in 64 playoff games is remarkable.

Plus Gold at WJC, WC, and Silver and Bronze at the Olympics including a 9 goal effort in 6 games in 98.

Between his shorter career, fewer trips to the postseason and some of the off-ice drama I think he doesn’t quite get his due.

 

[buffalowing88]

If we are considering players who are better than their voting records/stats show I'll offer some.

Duncan Keith won 2 Norrises, but only has one more top 5 finish. But he spent a decade as a top five defensemen in the league, who was able to be a heavy-minute playoff machine. In particular, his outlet pass and defensive play contributed a lot to the Blackhawk's playoff success.

Chris Pronger has a spotty Norris record, but was the second best defensemen in the league for a decade. His playoff runs in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2010 were excellent. But he only won one Cup and no Smythe because he was a bit undisciplined.

Both were recognized as greats, but their actual trophy case is paltry in comparison to their on-ice ability.

Wow, I agree on Pronger but I was actually going to post that Keith is NOT as good as his record and trophies suggest.

Still an all-timer, but Doughty was better IMHO.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think I'm on board with that too...buff wing. On the condition, that you don't mention Tim Connolly in this thread...

 

[buffalowing88]

I think I'm on board with that too...buff wing. On the condition, that you don't mention Tim Connolly in this thread...

I make no promises!

 

[Vilica]

Pre-expansion top 100 players that are overvalued: Ted Kennedy, Bill Gadsby, Maurice Richard's playoff performances

Pre-expansion players that are undervalued: Red Kelly, Allan Stanley, Marcel Pronovost.

Kennedy is ranked between the 20-25th best center when he should probably be around 50-60th, Gadsby was his era's Dion Phaneuf, in that he put up points but bled goals against, and Richard's playoff numbers are propped up by the war years and the dynasty, and his performances during his prime are underwhelming in more than a few spots.

Kelly's midcareer position switch means he doesn't get ranked as highly as if he had spent his entire career at either center or defense. It is hard to say without video and +/-, but I think in the team switching (and thus WOWY) of both Stanley and Pronovost seems to indicate that they both did a much better job of preventing goals from being scored than guys like Gadsby and Bill Quackenbush.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It is hard to say without video

It's not as prevalent as NFL or MLB video, but all three of Kelly, Stanley, and Pronovost have plenty of film available on them.

 

[Vilica]

It's not as prevalent as NFL or MLB video, but all three of Kelly, Stanley, and Pronovost have plenty of film available on them.

I'm guessing most of the film on the three you mentioned is from their Toronto years. I was more referring to their non-Toronto playtime - Pronovost in Detroit, Quackenbush in Boston, Gadsby in New York/Chicago, Stanley in NY/Chicago/Boston, in the 40s and 50s. I was under the impression that those games were much more limited on television, especially full game replays.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Nah, there's enough out there...couple examples...

 

[seventieslord]

-Here on HOF he's rated in the 120's on the group list, I think. The majority of other best lists have him way higher. The Hockey News has him around 70 and so forth

We ranked him 132nd here. But that greatly overstates the difference. Between 1st and 132nd on our list, I see 52 players who were either pre-NHL or European players (who were outside of the scope of THN's list), or players too young to have been ranked ahead of Perreault at the time (some who were 25-33 but most whose careers hadn't even begun).

So really, the HOH forum ranked him about 80th all-time by the same criteria as THN (NHL only, circa 1998). Is that so egregious compared to 70th?

I know he's your favorite player but did you think he could be ranked top 100 forever? It's been 36 years and a lot of great players have come and gone in that time.

 

[Felidae]

I'll cover both sides of this and say that Teppo Numminen was a better player than Rob Blake.

One a much better player than his awards/reputation, one a much worse player.

Just looked into both of their norris records and damn, the difference is pretty significant. Definitely in the spirit of this thread.

Numminen: 7, 9, 11, 11

Blake: 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12, 17

It takes Blake's 6th best norris finish to be bested by Numminen's best which suggests an entirely different tier of player in their primes. Seems quite a few agree with you though.

it'd be pretty hard to convince someone like myself, who hasn't watched either play that numminen was the superior player.

Not asking you to do that of course.. but I am curious why do you snd anyone else think Blake fared much better in norris voting relative to his actual on ice impact, and vice versa for numminen.

If I'm to guess, it has to do with Blake's playstyle making him easily noticeable and Numminen being a more quiet, aesthetically unremarkable player + where he played?