Fogelhund
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Player Development
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Peasy
Registered User
It is weird that over the past 10 years, the leafs have shown that they can clearly develop forwards, and do it pretty well too. But when it comes to defence and goaltending really, they are completely lost. How can you be so great at developing one position, but so poor at the others? But I guess this doesnt just happen to the Leafs. You have orgs like Nashville that clearly do a great job developing D men and goalies but when it comes to forwards theyre lost.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
I really don't think one can develop D-men in the AHL. AHL and NHL are two completely different leagues. It takes a lot longer for D-men to develop anyway.
Goalies are voodoo - I don't think there is any science or art form where one can develop a goalie and he will be consistent for years. Unlike other positions Goalie I would say is 70% mental, 25% skill, 5% athleticism and 10% positioning.
The mental thing is something either you have or you don't. Although, a good defensive system can definitely help with the mental thing for the goalies.
SprDaVE
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- Sep 20, 2008
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There's no really formula or an amount of money that will make things better. There are so many factors that play into this. Drafting better, having luck and also the player doing his own part in his development. Putting the onus on the team when it's a lot more complicated than that and there's no real linear aspect to it. This team has put in a lot of effort and money in it's overall development infrastructure when Shanahan was hired.
The Leafs have developed and drafted some good D over the years. Is it as good as some others teams? Probably not. But it's not as bleak as it sounds at all.
The Leafs have developed and drafted some good D over the years. Is it as good as some others teams? Probably not. But it's not as bleak as it sounds at all.
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Zonk
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- Jul 2, 2012
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Assistant General Manager, Player Development | Dr. Hayley Wickenheiser
Director, Player Development | Danielle Goyette
Player Development | Nik Antropov, Denver Manderson, Thomas Pacina, Rich Clune, Joe Underwood, Patrick O’Sullivan
Thanks, OP, for posting this. I had wondered the same thing on why the Leafs can only develop forwards, but had never looked at the list of staff responsible. I think that there may be a pattern in who the Leafs hire for player development.
Wickenheiser was a forward.
Goyette was a forward.
Antropov was a forward.
Manderson was a forward.
Pacina? I could not find anything on his playing career, but he has a lengthy career as a coach and is married to Wickenheiser.
Clune was a forward.
Underwood was a defenseman, never drafted and never played professionally.
O'Sullivan was a forward.
Director, Player Development | Danielle Goyette
Player Development | Nik Antropov, Denver Manderson, Thomas Pacina, Rich Clune, Joe Underwood, Patrick O’Sullivan
Thanks, OP, for posting this. I had wondered the same thing on why the Leafs can only develop forwards, but had never looked at the list of staff responsible. I think that there may be a pattern in who the Leafs hire for player development.
Wickenheiser was a forward.
Goyette was a forward.
Antropov was a forward.
Manderson was a forward.
Pacina? I could not find anything on his playing career, but he has a lengthy career as a coach and is married to Wickenheiser.
Clune was a forward.
Underwood was a defenseman, never drafted and never played professionally.
O'Sullivan was a forward.
It is simple really my friend .. forwards are easiest players to come by in draft .. wingers either have it by 17/18 or they may become 4th liners after some defensive training in minors .. D men take much longer to develop as positioning and partner play is much much more difficult to teach and develop and Leafs have never drafted and developed D men in past 70 years (it has to be main focus of a pro team and all discussion/efforts have to be singular on it) .. Centres somewhere in between wingers and D men unless you get a top pick .. in G it is hardest to fully predict but SIZE, ATHLETICS and POSITIONING need to all come together with a highly competitive guy with a history of success from time he started between da pipes .. with G you have to go back to 8-9 years old and monitor through draft .. which means you have to trust people who have lived in rinks watching championship Sunday tournament hockey in their respective towns/cities .. in Leafs case they relied on Paul/Mitch Marner for Woll draft .. and it was da right call .. other big issue is TO corporate types who spend other peoples money on their tickets like to see offense when they drink their wine and eat their cheese at games so it has an influence on personnel and then on draft .. bottom line it won't happen here in TO so we have to rely on trades to bring in top end D on weird cAP deals like McCabe;s
Fogelhund
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I just can't agree that better training, and better prep doesn't make better players. Leaving player development, to do their own part, instead of having an organization plan, seems rather haphazard.
It won't make average potential players turn into stars... but it would give players a much better chance of hitting whatever potential that they might have, and groom them to play on your team.
It's one of those areas that spending isn't capped, so why not spend extra to develop your players better?
Exactly... where are the D specialists in all of this?
SprDaVE
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- Sep 20, 2008
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Who says they aren't doing that? It seems like there's a big assumption they just don't care or aren't doing enough when I'm saying it's just not fair to say that and it's a lot more complicated than looking at who's hired and making your own conclusions that the program isn't good enough
Fogelhund
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Wanting offensively exciting play, doesn't preclude you from developing your D players too... including offensively inclined D men. It's about winning, and winning in the playoffs... where the corporate types can spend even more money on a deep playoff run....
I looked at it a couple of years ago, but over half of the top three nominated Norris D men, were drafted outside of round 1 at one point.... I'm not suggesting we turn everyone into Norris potentials, but D are pretty hard to predict, outside of the very top of the drafts. Developing the ones that you've got, should be a plan instead of overpaying to bring in others.
SprDaVE
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Just because a player was a forward and not a defenseman, it doesn't mean they don't understand the concept of training, developing and being able to coach players from a defense perspective. It's very irrelevant. On the flip side, hiring Wayne Gretzky isn't gonna make your team more apt in developing star forwards -- the Coyotes will tell you that.
So many of these people have been removed from competitive play in well over 10 years, some a lot more than that. Many of them studied and understand many aspects of the game to do what they do.
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Fogelhund
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If you aren't getting results, the program isn't good enough.... I mean that's the bottom line right? Have we developed enough NHL D? Rhetorical question right?
SprDaVE
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I don't think it's been great, more like average, but I also don't think it's an issue of the development people in place either. There's a lot of factors into it.
Where are some examples compared other teams? Is there something we can compare that shows the Leafs are among the bottom in the last say, 10ish years? Let's compare some of these development people here as well.
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Bomber0104
Registered User
Maybe having a former player or two in coaching and/or player development who was actually a successful NHL defenceman would help?
That'd probably be a good idea, dunno though...
Who have they developed?
They drafted a number of guys who needed little development. Lily is not a good job, Sandin, hmmm, Timmons?, Holmberg? Maybe McMann, Robertson should be better,
I realize that but all of us in da over 60 crowd we can't wait for a 10 year D development plan to start to pay dividends .. which we have never even started
Fogelhund
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Well... I'm hoping the 60+ crowd is around for more than 10 years.. and I suspect it would take less than that to pay dividends. It's more like 4-5 years from draft to NHL for the average D man....
I'd also hope that the org could take a long-term view, and build for more than just then next 10 years.. big ask I know.
Peasy
Registered User
I said theyve done a solid job with forwards.
Hyman, Kapanen, Johnsson, Bunting etc all took positive steps forward while being with the leafs.
When you compare that to D, its a stark difference. Sandin, Lilj, Dermott etc never hit similar highs as these guys and we were often left underwhelmed.
I imagine that we already spend more than many teams on player development. There's just a lot more than goes into the quality of defensemen you end up with than just how many player development coaches you hire.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
Thats pretty interesting. I'd like to get Muzzin on player development if he is able to and willing to. We need someone in player development that also preaches intangibles not just finesse plays
I don't think the Leafs have done much better, or much worse, than most other teams. You might have a couple teams that just develop guys at a great rate, and some teams that can't develop anyone....but most teams are in the middle. That is where the Leafs are. They don't have a lot of high draft picks...and if you look at the league, MANY late first rounders dont' turn into stars....and many/most guys taken from the 2nd round and beyond don't even make the league or make very little impact.
I would like the Leafs to be a team like Boston that just spits out 'next man up' who is always good.....but they aren't "bad" for the draft currency they have to work with.
I would like the Leafs to be a team like Boston that just spits out 'next man up' who is always good.....but they aren't "bad" for the draft currency they have to work with.
Primary Assist
The taste of honey is worse than none at all
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This reminds me of studies that have been done on "generational talents" in the arts. Writers like Shakespeare or Mark Twain, painters like Van Gogh. One of the biggest factors of producing all time classic works is simply being voluminous. Even the best and most creative minds produce a bunch of mediocre to middling works for every masterpiece.
I think the Leafs have the same problem, they've simply traded away too many picks and prospects to find the diamonds in the rough you need to balance out the stars on a roster.
And I'd also like to take a moment to say rest in peace to Rodion Amirov. Our prospect pool would look much deeper with a blue chip forward like him right now. If there's one thing I can say former management did extremely well during their tenure, it was taking care of him and his family to the best of their abilities.
I think the Leafs have the same problem, they've simply traded away too many picks and prospects to find the diamonds in the rough you need to balance out the stars on a roster.
And I'd also like to take a moment to say rest in peace to Rodion Amirov. Our prospect pool would look much deeper with a blue chip forward like him right now. If there's one thing I can say former management did extremely well during their tenure, it was taking care of him and his family to the best of their abilities.
Sadly, you have to go all the way back to 1996 to see Leafs draft a defenceman outside out of lottery that became anything close to a star - Tomas Kaberle. Ever since, it's been mostly misses, with the only notable exceptions being Rielly (top 5 pick), Schenn (top 5) and I guess Stralman? Pretty bad record, considering the resources at their disposal.
Only other guys to play more than 'cup of coffee' in the NHL were Colaiacovo and Harrison in 2001, White in 2002, Gunnarsson in 2007, Dermott in 2015. Recent draftees would be Sandin, Durzi and Lilly - two of whom are no longer in the organization, but again - nothing close to (all)star material.
Only other guys to play more than 'cup of coffee' in the NHL were Colaiacovo and Harrison in 2001, White in 2002, Gunnarsson in 2007, Dermott in 2015. Recent draftees would be Sandin, Durzi and Lilly - two of whom are no longer in the organization, but again - nothing close to (all)star material.
The Iceman
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- Sep 22, 2007
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This posts deserves 2 thumbs up, not just the one that I was able to give it.
I agree with Hyman, Kappa never really developed, Bunting we did not develope, he was FA.
I consider development as 3rd 4th 5th rounders who the Marlies turn into very effective players...not been many. There are 3 or 4 on Marlies right now that could be future key guys, so maybe next year. We have zero effective 3 or4 lines guys which can from their. McMann is coming, Robertson is working that way, but not yet key guys.
notDatsyuk
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- Jul 20, 2018
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If you're not getting results with the players you have been given, maybe it's the players. You can't make a good chicken stew out of hummingbird wings.
Have we drafted enough potential NHL D? Have we kept them long enough to develop properly? How many of our traded away prospects and picks were/could have been defencemen?
