Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?

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Gump Hasek

Spleen Merchant
Nov 9, 2005
10,167
2
222 Tudor Terrace
Your ticket prices have virtually nothing to do with revenue sharing if you are in a strong market. Your ticket prices are a function of what level of profitability your market's owner wants to reap. Nothing more or less.

Interesting angle. If the owner wishes to keep his profitability near let us say a fixed rate of X percent this season, and during the season his revenue sharing expense goes up to Y, it can easily be argued that one of the ways to make up for that increased expense is to increase ticket prices if you've a captive audience. It is not as cut and dried as you claim.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
So its basically blackmail (of some kind). We take your tax dollars to give to MH to buy the team. Then you have to shell out more of your own dollars to have basic community necessities (ie police:shakehead). This could potentially turn into a bigger financial disaster for Glendale than it already is.

Not quite. The payment of $100M to MH for the parking rights is to come from the Bond sales; while the funds for the Arena Management portion of the agreement is supposed to come from a combination of parking revenues & a CFD, not from General Revenues for basic services. You are however quite correct in suggesting that should attendance not pickup, additional events booked well beyond the Coyotes this could all go Kaboom, leaving the COG without a team & some serious debt problems on their hands. If we take it that far, you'd pretty much have to be looking at a Municipal Bankruptcy because their'd be no way for a city of that size to continue servicing the debts on the Arena & Parking Bonds. Orange County & Vallejo, both in CA are examples of what happens when a muni's forced into BK; and through reorganization how that affects debt servicing charges on bonds thereafter, most of which are either seriously written down or off.... Its' absolutely a hi-wire act & not for the feint of heart, however, its' a roll of the dice the COG is willing to make. Totally damned if they dont do anything & damned if they do proceed as planned in light of the overall terms of the deal itself, as they are already on the hook having built the arena & have outstanding debts to service on the Bonds they floated to build it. Here at least their able to buy some more time, hope & pray things turnaround with the economy, surprise us please Mr. Hulsizer.
 
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Fugu

Guest
Approximately $3m per team per year is paid to fund central operations. That includes everything from Gary's pay to the referees. Not sure if it includes league-wide insurance policies like the long-term disability contract blanket deal or if they teams pay those fees directly to the insurer.

That does not include:
- Revenue sharing payments by the top 10 teams.
- Playoff revenue sharing payments.


I'm only working in the one direction, a valuation of the NHL's contribution to each team. GC provided $8.4m from the BK, and I assume your figure is from a similar time point? (E.g., he allows for 3% growth per annum, but there should be an increase in operational cost as well, like Bettman getting a raise).

The Revenue Transfer and Playofff Revenue Sharing only affects some teams, to differing levels, but it actually might make the 'net worth' worse than better since it's money flowing out from the team to the central office, not the other way around.

I think we have the file here, on NHL costs (tax release, iirc).
 

Fugu

Guest
Interesting angle. If the owner wishes to keep his profitability near let us say a fixed rate of X percent this season, and during the season his revenue sharing expense goes up to Y, it can easily be argued that one of the ways to make up for that increased expense is to increase ticket prices if you've a captive audience. It is not as cut and dried as you claim.


I tend to agree that while the ideal is to have supply and demand at exactly the right point to maximize profit, what we end up with is varying demand for different games, plus the individual vs STH price levels. I do think that most operations will look at price before anything else when they want to hit a certain profit level (thanks to things like their self-imposed league tax).
 

MAROONSRoad

f/k/a Ghost
Feb 24, 2007
4,067
0
Maroons Rd.
That is true, although one should note that I do not put a lot of stock in the "actual attendance" numbers that are bandied about as having been produced in the bankruptcy hearings.

Contrary to what many understand, they are not sworn statements. Their source was none other than J. Balsillie.

Given the fact that the revenues are bitten off in $5-17 pieces, the estimates are not all that sensitive. What matters is whether the CoG gets its half a million or so cars a year.

So you are suggesting that Balsillie's team lied in their submission to the court and completed fabricated the actual and paid attendance numbers rather than ask Moyes for the actual numbers? That would be smart given that the NHL would have the actual numbers also. :laugh:

And everyone else including the NHL that had access to the actual and paid figures did nothing to refute Balsillie's figures? I guess the NHL didn't want to expose Balsillie as a liar because they liked him so much. :sarcasm:

I don't think that is likely. Nice try though. :p:

GHOST
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,445
34,546
I continue to have an issue with this claim the COG will never have >5,500 parking spaces that it can utilize. While the parking reports use those numbers, when you use the estimates of 2.6 -2.8 persons per car, the max attendance for any event is 14,000.

The lease clearly says the COG must provide no <5,500 spaces (5,000 for patrons, 500 for team). The parking reports also indicate there are >9,400 spaces in play.

It appears to me the parking report estimates are extremely conservative.

To accommodate a sold-out hockey game you'd need >6,100 spaces. For a concert, >7,100. Even if the contention is that all events over a year will average 13,000 - 14,000 patrons per event, you'll still >5,000 spaces for hockey games, concerts and, likely, Cardinals games on Sundays.


I think it is useful to consider two issues separately:

1) Which parking areas is the City of Glendale monetizing through a payment of $100 million to Hulsizer? In this case, it is "not less than 5,500", with 500 of those to be provided to Hulsizer for use by the team and management. So the $100 million is the amount paid in return for not less than 5,000 parking spaces. Based on CBRE and Walker's estimates, the net present value of those 5,000 parking spaces is substantially less than $100 million. This relates to concerns about the "gift clause". It is implied that the future revenue from these parking spaces (defined as the "City Parking Area") belonged to the Arena Manager, though I am not sure if previous agreements were explicit about which parking lots came under the lease agreement for the purposes of generating parking revenue.

2) The City of Glendale has other sources of revenue, that could include other parking revenues, that could come into play to finance the bonds. This could be above and beyond the 5,000 spots that are specified as the "City Parking Area" in the lease agreement with Hulsizer.
 

aj8000

Registered User
Jun 5, 2010
1,256
35
This point appeared to cause some confusion with the CBRE report which reviewed the Walker Report.

The lease provides for not less than 5500 spots (up to some 500 of which are provided to the team, if memory serves). However, there are more available. It simply provides for a minimum commitment (in case Westgate needed some of the other 4000 or was building over them from time to time and/or needed laydown areas for construction, for example).

One would have though that, if they were going to restrict CoG's parkign pricing, they would have so provided in the lease.

They did not so provide.

Given that parking revenues are pledged as security to the bonds, I would be very doubtful that they would limit their pricing capacity (although anything is possible). The topic may be addressed in the Offering Memorandum.

Back to the old devil's advocate position eh GSC2k2?

In a nut shell, if the COG owns the arena and the land around it and are in the process of negotiating a new lease with a new owner, you do not give the parking revenues to the new owner just to buy it back for 100 million. You just do not include the parking rights in the new lease.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
In a nut shell, if the COG owns the arena and the land around it and are in the process of negotiating a new lease with a new owner, you do not give the parking revenues to the new owner just to buy it back for 100 million. You just do not include the parking rights in the new lease.

Well why not?. If your backs to the wall & its perfectly legal, why wouldnt you take advantage of every loophole available & drive a Mac through it if you could?. According to Beasley "no taxpayer funds will be required to service the debts on the Bonds". I have a very hard time believing that, however, live by the Sword, and if they fall on it & die trying well, thats their decision to make. What other options or alternatives did they/do they have?. No one's willing to plunk down $170M+ just to buy the franchise as is/where is; and they dont want to even consider life without an NHL team in the arena. If your arguing that the COG somehow broke the Gift Clause by assigning/including the parking rights in the Lease & in buying them back breached the borders, I think you'll find any number of legal minds & others who could mount a pretty vociferous defence & likely win that argument before a judge in Arizona. If your referring to the Arena Management portion of the agreement, Im not so confident. Perhaps with some tweaking, but as it stands, Id say its the Achillies' Heel to this thing getting done without Challenge, combined with the existing issues swirling around transparency & lack there-of.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
So you are suggesting that Balsillie's team lied in their submission to the court and completed fabricated the actual and paid attendance numbers rather than ask Moyes for the actual numbers?

Lied? Certainly not. That is a serious criminal offence. I would not do so without evidence, and even with evidence would not discuss same on a hockey chat board.

To explain, I will first refresh your memory as to where those figures came from. They were included by JB in his application for ownership to the NHL. As it was pertinent for Baum J.'s purposes that he receive confirmation that the application have been made and received, the Balsillie team filed that application with the court.

They filed it with a declaration swearing that it was a true copy of said application. I have no doubt that it was.

It was not relevant for any other purpose. The application was not filed for the truth of any of the contents. Much as it was a bit of a treasure trove of information for us here, it was not in the least bit pertinent to the matters at hand before Baum J. All that "information" about attendance, and drop counts (a phrase which is thrown around nowadays like we were all pros ;) ) - none of it was pertinent to the issue before Baum J., which was the right of the NHL to select its owners. Same thing for the supposed "losses" incurred by Moyes. For purposes of the matters before the court, it makes no difference what the losses were, which is why they drew comparatively little attention or argument. Of course, counsel for Moyes and JB tried to cloud the issue by filing all that stuff, but none of it mattered, because none of it pertained to the issue.

Had Baum J. ruled differently on the rights of the NHL, it is possible that the next step would have been whether the NHL was adhering to its criteria for movement, and some of those items might have become relevant. We never got there, because JB never got to that point.

This answers your question as to why the NHL would not just ask Moyes for the numbers - it was not germane. Why would they ask him?

That would be smart given that the NHL would have the actual numbers also. :laugh:

Although as noted above, none of this mattered for the bankruptcy, I will address this in passing. The NHL would not "have the actual numbers". They would, if anything, have the numbers that Moyes and his management and operations team provided them.

And everyone else including the NHL that had access to the actual and paid figures did nothing to refute Balsillie's figures? I guess the NHL didn't want to expose Balsillie as a liar because they liked him so much. :sarcasm:

I don't think that is likely.

See above. Why would anyone refute such figures? They were not the subject matter. I know that, for us observers, the whole bankruptcy was nothing less than a referendum on the suitability of PHO as a market, and for others, something even more: a referendum on the NHL's sunbelt strategy (not "experiment" - strategy). for the lawyers and the court, that was irrelevant (except for some lawyers who were acting as PR reps for their clients in the courts of public opinion).

Nice try though. :p:

GHOST

Pretty successful IMO. Thank you for the kudos. ;)
 

RR

Registered User
Mar 8, 2009
8,821
64
Cave Creek, AZ
I think it is useful to consider two issues separately:

1) Which parking areas is the City of Glendale monetizing through a payment of $100 million to Hulsizer? In this case, it is "not less than 5,500", with 500 of those to be provided to Hulsizer for use by the team and management. So the $100 million is the amount paid in return for not less than 5,000 parking spaces. Based on CBRE and Walker's estimates, the net present value of those 5,000 parking spaces is substantially less than $100 million. This relates to concerns about the "gift clause". It is implied that the future revenue from these parking spaces (defined as the "City Parking Area") belonged to the Arena Manager, though I am not sure if previous agreements were explicit about which parking lots came under the lease agreement for the purposes of generating parking revenue.

Why look at it separately, since the agreement does not?

Section 9.9.1 specifically addresses the $100M the COG is paying to Hulsizer: it is for the "Arena Parking Rights." That includes the entire City Parking Area, the Parking Naming Rights, and Parking Advertising.

Nothing about the $100M in exchange for 5,500 parking spaces. Nothing. It is for the entire City Parking Area that has been defined as all parking within the Westgate.

The only relevance of 5,500 spaces is the COG cannot make available < that number of spaces to the Arena Manager.

2) The City of Glendale has other sources of revenue, that could include other parking revenues, that could come into play to finance the bonds. This could be above and beyond the 5,000 spots that are specified as the "City Parking Area" in the lease agreement with Hulsizer.

True, but that also represents part of the Arena Parking Rights the COG is paying $100M for.

Maybe 8.1.2 better clarifies this:

"The City shall take all actions necessary to provide, manage and operate, for the benefit of the Team and the Arena Manager, not less than 5,500 parking spaces located within a one-half mile radius of the geographic center of the Arena (the “City Parking Areaâ€)". All of Westgate and Arena parking falls within that one-half mile geographic requirement.
 
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OthmarAmmann

Omnishambles
Jul 7, 2010
2,761
0
NYC
Not annually, but you probably don't mean cumulatively either. PLease explain.

Annually.

The OM provides preliminary debt service projections on page 16 (page 23 of the pdf). Debt service is projected to be $8.3 million in 2012 and increases to $10 million by 2017, where it remains for the rest of the projection (that's for the 2011A and 2011B bonds combined). Given the face amount for the 2011A and 2011B bonds of $107 million and $9 million respectively (page 2), those preliminary numbers contemplate an interest rate of 6.8% and 6.4% respectively. I will accept that JPM has their pencils sharpened around that assumption.

Walker's NOI projection (appendix E, starting on page 320 of the OM pdf) on the other hand shows income of $2.4 million in 2012 growing to $4 million in 2017 in the base case. In no year is Walker's base projected NOI sufficient to cover the corresponding year's debt service. The cumulative deficit is $118 million, which optimistically assumes that it is costless to finance the annual deficits.

Folding in the $1.5 million per year from Ellman still results in a cumulative deficit of $73 million and annual deficits in all years but 2040.

Missed my point. There's been an assumption here that 5,000 spaces are the max the COG can generate revenue from. That is false. There are >9,000 space available. Has nothing to do with best case scenarios, illustrates the reports are based on very conservative numbers.

I don't see this actually being an issue. Walker shows projected parking demand in figure 54 of their report (p 67, p 266 of the OM file). There are very few events where there are more than 5,500 spots projected. It seems from that table that no cap was placed on the number of revenue generating spots from the last row in that table.

If memory serves, all of the reports felty comfortable with those figures. I don't think they attached a probability to it, but they all characterized those car/event/attendance projections as quite conservative. Given that Walker chose a 2.6-2.8 car/attendee ratio (2.5 is the more universally used number), and given that they assume zero playoff appearances in 30 years, they do seem conservative in at least some respects.

Walker used 2.5 to 2.7 (figure 53, p 66, p 265 of the OM file). They also assume that the three pre-season games attract 7,500 attendees in all years of the projection, which does seem optimistic given that they've been drawing about that much for regular season games in October for the past few years. The projected event attendance numbers came from CSL, which is the firm retained by MH to manage the facility. It is possible that CSL sandbagged the numbers, but given that they only get the contract if the deal goes through, you'd think they'd be incentivized the other way.

If we say that the pre-season games offset the post-season games over the long run, we could crudely adjust Walker's revenue by a factor of 2.7/2.5. This still results in a significant shortfall.

One would have to scale Walker's NOI up by 44% to result in a cumulative deficit of zero by 2041, and that still results in a short fall of a few million dollars for the next 15 years (again that includes the $1.5 million from Ellman... it's 71% without that).

All of these deficits coupled with the additional $97 million outlay comes at an inconvenient time for the city. I admit I haven't looked at their pension fund, but if it's similar to the vast majority of public pensions, they have a significant funding gap while their workforce ages. If these outlays cause them to delay contributions to their pension fund (a popular tactic) they could very well find their in a "death spiral" in a few years if they have to liquidate assets to cover benefits. Again, I admit I haven't looked at their pension, but this is an issue for the vast majority of state and local governments and I'd be surprised if they're different.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
I think it is useful to consider two issues separately:

1) Which parking areas is the City of Glendale monetizing through a payment of $100 million to Hulsizer? In this case, it is "not less than 5,500", with 500 of those to be provided to Hulsizer for use by the team and management. So the $100 million is the amount paid in return for not less than 5,000 parking spaces. Based on CBRE and Walker's estimates, the net present value of those 5,000 parking spaces is substantially less than $100 million. This relates to concerns about the "gift clause". It is implied that the future revenue from these parking spaces (defined as the "City Parking Area") belonged to the Arena Manager, though I am not sure if previous agreements were explicit about which parking lots came under the lease agreement for the purposes of generating parking revenue.

The parking areas which Hulsizer is monetizing - not the CoG, who is doing the opposite of monetizing them - would be the rights which he will be acquiring from the NHL, who acquired them from the Moyes bankrupt estate. They exist under a number of related agreements, none of which (if memory serves) was the AMULA. As noted above in a response to another poster, the arena operator has the right to parking on the grounds. If i can ever find my MUDA and parking agreements, I can able to identify them specifically, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to know. The parking rights have the caveat that the parking shall be "not less than" a certain number of spots (due to the ongoing nature of the development, as is witnessed by the temporary parking agreement (relating to the construction of a garage in exchange for taking away 1440 spots) and a number of other similar arrangements.

The CoG did not grant the arena manager or the team any parking rights under the original AMULA.



2) The City of Glendale has other sources of revenue, that could include other parking revenues, that could come into play to finance the bonds. This could be above and beyond the 5,000 spots that are specified as the "City Parking Area" in the lease agreement with Hulsizer.

Indeed, it would be ALL of the parking spots rights which have been transferred to the City in exchange for the $100M, not just the "not less than" figure.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Back to the old devil's advocate position eh GSC2k2?

In a nut shell, if the COG owns the arena and the land around it and are in the process of negotiating a new lease with a new owner, you do not give the parking revenues to the new owner just to buy it back for 100 million. You just do not include the parking rights in the new lease.
Not sure of your point. Can you try to articulate it in a different way?
 

RR

Registered User
Mar 8, 2009
8,821
64
Cave Creek, AZ
I don't see this actually being an issue. Walker shows projected parking demand in figure 54 of their report (p 67, p 266 of the OM file). There are very few events where there are more than 5,500 spots projected. It seems from that table that no cap was placed on the number of revenue generating spots from the last row in that table.

But it is an issue if someone is going to claim the City is paying only for the rights to 5,500 spaces (5,000 for patrons). That was the point I was addressing.
 

OthmarAmmann

Omnishambles
Jul 7, 2010
2,761
0
NYC
All of these deficits coupled with the additional $97 million outlay comes at an inconvenient time for the city. I admit I haven't looked at their pension fund, but if it's similar to the vast majority of public pensions, they have a significant funding gap while their workforce ages. If these outlays cause them to delay contributions to their pension fund (a popular tactic) they could very well find their in a "death spiral" in a few years if they have to liquidate assets to cover benefits. Again, I admit I haven't looked at their pension, but this is an issue for the vast majority of state and local governments and I'd be surprised if they're different.

Based on the June 30, 2010 financials, their combined pension and retiree health liabilities are $338 million with assets of $164 million, which means they have a deficit of $174 million OBS. With the total pension benefits only 48% funded, this is not very healthy.

Like many other municipalities, the biggest issue is the post-retirement health obligation of $107 million, which is completely unfunded.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Annually.

The OM provides preliminary debt service projections on page 16 (page 23 of the pdf). Debt service is projected to be $8.3 million in 2012 and increases to $10 million by 2017, where it remains for the rest of the projection (that's for the 2011A and 2011B bonds combined). Given the face amount for the 2011A and 2011B bonds of $107 million and $9 million respectively (page 2), those preliminary numbers contemplate an interest rate of 6.8% and 6.4% respectively. I will accept that JPM has their pencils sharpened around that assumption.

Walker's NOI projection (appendix E, starting on page 320 of the OM pdf) on the other hand shows income of $2.4 million in 2012 growing to $4 million in 2017 in the base case. In no year is Walker's base projected NOI sufficient to cover the corresponding year's debt service. The cumulative deficit is $118 million, which optimistically assumes that it is costless to finance the annual deficits.

Folding in the $1.5 million per year from Ellman still results in a cumulative deficit of $73 million and annual deficits in all years but 2040.

Numbers! Excellent. Let's discuss.

If you would review the debt service amounts, you would note that they clearly contemplate a component for principal. This is confirmed in the summary of the indenture as set forth in schedule A-1 (starting on page 35 of the pdf). The principal portion is placed in the "Bond Retirement Fund". As such, your interest rate calculations which do not assume such component are not correct in my view.

Why does this matter? I suspect that you already know by now, but I will explain for anyone else reading this. In calculating the viability of an investment such as these parking rights to determine whether one "breaks even", one does not look at the portion of any debt service related to the principal. The reason is that, at the end of the financing, one still has the asset which one has purchased. Certainly one must look at the value of an asset for an asset that is losing its value (such as a piece of machinery with a definite usable life span), but such is not the case with land rights such as this. The fact is, of course, that the value of the land will be worth more than its acquisition price, given the nature of the development.

In other words, if you DO count the principal, you are actually counting profit for the owner of the parking rights. IF, for example, at the end of the thirty years, you have paid all of the debt service AND the principal, you are left with the land rights, free and clear. In that case, you have MADE $100M in profit.

To put it in another way, what you are referring to as a "cumulative deficit" is in fact the equity in the land rights that the CoG will have paid off. the CoG still has the asset which will be worth $100M as a minimum, and likely well in excess of that 30 years from now.

As such, there is no such cumulative deficit. Based on Walker's self-admitted conservative projections, there is a deficit at the beginning, but it is reduced year by year and overcome in the later years of the term of the bonds.


Walker used 2.5 to 2.7 (figure 53, p 66, p 265 of the OM file). They also assume that the three pre-season games attract 7,500 attendees in all years of the projection, which does seem optimistic given that they've been drawing about that much for regular season games in October for the past few years. The projected event attendance numbers came from CSL, which is the firm retained by MH to manage the facility. It is possible that CSL sandbagged the numbers, but given that they only get the contract if the deal goes through, you'd think they'd be incentivized the other way.

Noted on the 2.5/2.7, which is different from the 2.6/2.8 that i thought I recalled. That being said, you should be aware that 2.5 is a pretty universal standard in the parkiing business, so it is conservative nevertheless (since the only time they used the universal 2.5 standard is where they were referring to the penny-ante "other" events, which were chickenfeed as a parking contributor by comparison).

To correct you on a point, CSL is NOT the firm retained by MH to manage the facility. They are in fact only a consultant firm, and do not manage facilities. The documentation clearly indicates that they were hired as a consultant (page 197 of PDF). They were not even hired by Hulsizer, interestingly enough.

Accordingly, your speculation about CSL's incentives as noted above is not germane.

If we say that the pre-season games offset the post-season games over the long run, we could crudely adjust Walker's revenue by a factor of 2.7/2.5. This still results in a significant shortfall.

I don't think the numbers support you here, at all.

If you are suggesting that a shortfall of ~2500 patrons per pre-season game (even assuming that to be the case) offsets 17,000 patrons (times two at a minimum) every few years, without even taking into account >4 game series or longer runs than one-round-and-out every so often, then i simply have to challenge that as unsupportable. That would assume that one can project anything longterm from the current disjointed scenario when attendance has been depressed.

One would have to scale Walker's NOI up by 44% to result in a cumulative deficit of zero by 2041, and that still results in a short fall of a few million dollars for the next 15 years (again that includes the $1.5 million from Ellman... it's 71% without that).

As noted above, the numbers that you cite are fundamentally flawed due to the principal component issue.

All of these deficits coupled with the additional $97 million outlay comes at an inconvenient time for the city. I admit I haven't looked at their pension fund, but if it's similar to the vast majority of public pensions, they have a significant funding gap while their workforce ages. If these outlays cause them to delay contributions to their pension fund (a popular tactic) they could very well find their in a "death spiral" in a few years if they have to liquidate assets to cover benefits. Again, I admit I haven't looked at their pension, but this is an issue for the vast majority of state and local governments and I'd be surprised if they're different.

This is not in the least bit germane to the Business of Hockey. It has not a thing to do with this transaction. I am at a bit of a loss as to why you would raise it apropos of nothing.

Other than the last nonsequiter, great discussion.
 

MountainHawk

Registered User
Sep 29, 2005
12,771
0
Salem, MA
Public pensions are going to die, and relatively soon. The money isn't there, and today's taxpayers aren't going to agree to pay those bills.

So, take any deficit with a grain of salt.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,445
34,546
Why look at it separately, since the agreement does not?

Section 9.9.1 specifically addresses the $100M the COG is paying to Hulsizer: it is for the "Arena Parking Rights." That includes the entire City Parking Area, the Parking Naming Rights, and Parking Advertising.

Nothing about the $100M in exchange for 5,500 parking spaces. Nothing. It is for the entire City Parking Area that has been defined as all parking within the Westgate.

The parking areas which Hulsizer is monetizing - not the CoG, who is doing the opposite of monetizing them - would be the rights which he will be acquiring from the NHL, who acquired them from the Moyes bankrupt estate. They exist under a number of related agreements, none of which (if memory serves) was the AMULA. As noted above in a response to another poster, the arena operator has the right to parking on the grounds. If i can ever find my MUDA and parking agreements, I can able to identify them specifically, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to know. The parking rights have the caveat that the parking shall be "not less than" a certain number of spots (due to the ongoing nature of the development, as is witnessed by the temporary parking agreement (relating to the construction of a garage in exchange for taking away 1440 spots) and a number of other similar arrangements.

The CoG did not grant the arena manager or the team any parking rights under the original AMULA.





Indeed, it would be ALL of the parking spots rights which have been transferred to the City in exchange for the $100M, not just the "not less than" figure.

RR, with due respect, I can't see how you think that parking lots not associated with the arena can be considered part of the valuation of the parking rights that are being monetized to the tune of $100 million. As GSC rightly points out, in this deal Hulsizer is monetizing future parking revenue rights. Presumably there is a geographical limit to that, and that would logically have to either have been spelled out in previous Arena lease agreements or logically related to "Arena Property" per se. Just because the City of Glendale needs to justify giving Hulsizer $100 million, doesn't make it proper to assume that he already has parking revenue rights to properties not directly covered under the lease agreement. To think that Hulsizer can monetize properties not associated with the Arena, including, for example, Westgate lots, would seem to go well beyond the limit of reasonable considerations.
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
23,008
7,625
Toronto
So are the bonds still going on sale tomorrow, or is National Margarita day going to cause a delay? With no news yet again, It's 11:15.
 
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Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,445
34,546
Numbers! Excellent. Let's discuss.

If you would review the debt service amounts, you would note that they clearly contemplate a component for principal. This is confirmed in the summary of the indenture as set forth in schedule A-1 (starting on page 35 of the pdf). The principal portion is placed in the "Bond Retirement Fund". As such, your interest rate calculations which do not assume such component are not correct in my view.

Why does this matter? I suspect that you already know by now, but I will explain for anyone else reading this. In calculating the viability of an investment such as these parking rights to determine whether one "breaks even", one does not look at the portion of any debt service related to the principal. The reason is that, at the end of the financing, one still has the asset which one has purchased. Certainly one must look at the value of an asset for an asset that is losing its value (such as a piece of machinery with a definite usable life span), but such is not the case with land rights such as this. The fact is, of course, that the value of the land will be worth more than its acquisition price, given the nature of the development.

In other words, if you DO count the principal, you are actually counting profit for the owner of the parking rights. IF, for example, at the end of the thirty years, you have paid all of the debt service AND the principal, you are left with the land rights, free and clear. In that case, you have MADE $100M in profit.

To put it in another way, what you are referring to as a "cumulative deficit" is in fact the equity in the land rights that the CoG will have paid off. the CoG still has the asset which will be worth $100M as a minimum, and likely well in excess of that 30 years from now.

Huh? Not sure I follow, GSC...

What "asset" will the COG have purchased at the end of 30 years that they don't already own?

Hasn't the City of Glendale de facto only proposed to purchase parking rights for 30 years? They are not purchasing the land use rights in perpetuity. So at the end of this lease, Glendale's parking rights will also expire, will they not? So based on the logic of this agreement, once this 30 year lease is completed, logically the same or a new Arena Manager could continue to claim the parking revenue rights and either keep them to generate revenue for themselves or monetize them again and resell them to the City of Glendale for another defined period.

Consider the situation if Hulsizer monetized the 30-years of parking revenue rights and sold them to a third private party. At the end of the thirty years, what fixed asset would the private party then own? Would that party now own the land use rights in perpetuity? I think not.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
RR, with due respect, I can't see how you think that parking lots not associated with the arena can be considered part of the valuation of the parking rights that are being monetized to the tune of $100 million. As GSC rightly points out, in this deal Hulsizer is monetizing future parking revenue rights. Presumably there is a geographical limit to that, and that would logically have to either have been spelled out in previous Arena lease agreements or logically related to "Arena Property" per se. Just because the City of Glendale needs to justify giving Hulsizer $100 million, doesn't make it proper to assume that he already has parking revenue rights to properties not directly covered under the lease agreement. To think that Hulsizer can monetize properties not associated with the Arena, including, for example, Westgate lots, would seem to go well beyond the limit of reasonable considerations.
THere is a geographic limit in the new lease. It is within one half-mile radius of the arena.

If you look at the Walker Report, on page 31 (page 230 of the offering memorandum PDF), you will find that, in fact, it includes the parking for the entire Westgate complex.

Keep in mind as well that Hulsizer is not monetizing properties, but rather contractual rights in respect of those properties.
 

RR

Registered User
Mar 8, 2009
8,821
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Cave Creek, AZ
RR, with due respect, I can't see how you think that parking lots not associated with the arena can be considered part of the valuation of the parking rights that are being monetized to the tune of $100 million. As GSC rightly points out, in this deal Hulsizer is monetizing future parking revenue rights. Presumably there is a geographical limit to that, and that would logically have to either have been spelled out in previous Arena lease agreements or logically related to "Arena Property" per se. Just because the City of Glendale needs to justify giving Hulsizer $100 million, doesn't make it proper to assume that he already has parking revenue rights to properties not directly covered under the lease agreement. To think that Hulsizer can monetize properties not associated with the Arena, including, for example, Westgate lots, would seem to go well beyond the limit of reasonable considerations.

Whileee, I'm not talking about anything outside of the Westgate/Arena development.

Walker included the exhibit in its report diagramming the "Arena Parking System." It shows 9,714 total spaces: 6,578 specific to the Arena, and 3,136 specific for Westgate.

You continue to argue the COG is purchasing ONLY the rights to 5,500 spaces. That is false. It is paying for 6,578 if you want to precise.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,445
34,546
Whileee, I'm not talking about anything outside of the Westgate/Arena development.

Walker included the exhibit in its report diagramming the "Arena Parking System." It shows 9,714 total spaces: 6,578 specific to the Arena, and 3,136 specific for Westgate.

You continue to argue the COG is purchasing ONLY the rights to 5,500 spaces. That is false. It is paying for 6,578 if you want to precise.

Thanks for the clarification on the parking system. My point is that Hulsizer can logically only monetize those parking areas that fall logically under the Arena management and would be used for Arena events. If there are 6,578 spaces that are within 1/2 mile and are de facto part of the "City Parking Area" as defined in this and previous agreements, then I agree that this agreement is monetizing that many, minus 500 for the Arena manager and team. I am not familiar enough with the geography or previous agreements to know whether that is the case.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
Huh? Not sure I follow, GSC...

What "asset" will the COG have purchased at the end of 30 years that they don't already own?

Hasn't the City of Glendale de facto only proposed to purchase parking rights for 30 years? They are not purchasing the land use rights in perpetuity. So at the end of this lease, Glendale's parking rights will also expire, will they not? So based on the logic of this agreement, once this 30 year lease is completed, logically the same or a new Arena Manager could continue to claim the parking revenue rights and either keep them to generate revenue for themselves or monetize them again and resell them to the City of Glendale for another defined period.

Consider the situation if Hulsizer monetized the 30-years of parking revenue rights and sold them to a third private party. At the end of the thirty years, what fixed asset would the private party then own? Would that party now own the land use rights in perpetuity? I think not.

You are asking the right questions, Whileee.

In fact, they are purchasing the rights in perpetuity back. Please refer to section 8.1.1 of the new lease, wherein MH is transferring to the CoG "all of [his] rights and obligations with respect to the City Parking Area". Hulsizer is renouncing and reconveying back to the CoG all of his parking rights over those lands. FYI, it is done under a separate agreement called an Agreement of Assignment, Reconveyance, Modification and Abrogation of Rights which is entered into pursuant to the terms of the lease. It is not governed or limited by the duration of the lease.
 
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