Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[BusinessGoose]

I don't care for meaningful returns

Just get different names for us to be mad at

Same philosophy as canning Sullivan

 

[SEALBound]

What could the Penguins realistically sell if they went in that direction?

There are not a lot of candidates for the Pittsburgh Penguins to realistically move for meaningful returns if they decided to sell at the NHL Trade Deadline this season.

www.pensburgh.com

Actually, the binning on the players into their respective groups is spot on. That's different from "how likely" the move is to happen. For example, Pettersson is in the same group with Guentzel, which absolutely makes sense. I think we'd get a fantastic return on Pettersson but the fact is, we need him. He's not someone we should be trading.

I'm not totally convinced that Smith should be in the same group with Rakell and Graves though. I think it would be easier to find a trading parter with Smith vs Rakell and Graves. Rakell and Graves would require a hockey trade where you are swapping similar contracts for underperforming guys.

I like that he looks at every player and has the discussion, even if it's unlikely or not in the Penguins best interest. It's an interesting discussion about some guys, like DOC, Eller, and even Rust and Carter.

If I'm Dubas, and I know I've said this in the past, I look at nearly everyone. Calls on Sid/Geno/Letang/Petts/Rust obviously go away pretty quick but I would at least entertain what some other GMs are thinking, especially ones that want to boslter bottom 6. Like I'd gladly (GLADLY) give away Nieto, Acciari, Carter, Harkins, and Rudwedel to any taker for minimal return. I would even entertain taking on a cap dump for a slightly higher return.

As he said, the goalies are a wild card but man what a wild ride it would be if Dubas pulls the trigger on Jarry. Man alive would that be wild. I could see something like Jarry to Edmonton for Skinner+1st. Then we turn around and trade for someone else. Like sending Skinner to Columbus for Merzlikins+ or to NJ for Vanacek+ or something. Something where it's a bit of musical chairs for goalies where we get a cut for being the middle man. Then we resign Neds and run a tandem. Risky but I'm not sure the end result is anything that moves the needle much.

 

[molon labe]

If Sid and Geno were 26 and 27 instead of 36 and 37 I'd be way more confident in their ability to will this team into the playoffs. However, they're already performing at or even above what you expect for older stars.

This isn't a burn it down year, but Guentzel isn't going to be the difference between a conference finals and a Cup finals either. JR loves to over pay for "his guys." I say take the 1st and top prospect you know he's will to give and call it a season.

You could have a Rust - Sid - Geno line 1 for the same price as a non-upgraded Guentzel and I could make a very, very solid argument for Geno landing 40 goals with Sid to do most of the zone work.

The problem with this team is most deeply in it's roster construction and money spent - which goes hand in hand with our coach.

We absolutely (might have) been able to get someone like JT Miller. Certainly Tarasenko. We COULD have depth difference makers. The problem is the blown wad on Rakell/Smith who don't really bring anything at all to this club.

So, even at their ages - they can still anchor a team as a line 1 combo. Geno is making 6M which is literally Rakell/Smith (5M each) territory. He shouldn't be expected to perform to these 8,9,10M 2C's floating around. Nor should anyone with a brain think the Rakell's and Smiths' of the world are going to elevate Geno enough to get that old play from him.

The time was last year to move him to wing. That could have been with Miller (maybe) - but absolutely should be with Sid if we move on from Jake. We're already a 1-line team so the focus should be filling out depth and finding a system to support that depth. I'd love a Kadri 2C tbh.

 

[molon labe]

You could have a Rust - Sid - Geno line 1 for the same price as a non-upgraded Guentzel and I could make a very, very solid argument for Geno landing 40 goals with Sid to do most of the zone work.

The problem with this team is most deeply in it's roster construction and money spent - which goes hand in hand with our coach.

We absolutely (might have) been able to get someone like JT Miller. Certainly Tarasenko. We COULD have depth difference makers. The problem is the blown wad on Rakell/Smith who don't really bring anything at all to this club.

So, even at their ages - they can still anchor a team as a line 1 combo. Geno is making 6M which is literally Rakell/Smith (5M each) territory. He shouldn't be expected to perform to these 8,9,10M 2C's floating around. Nor should anyone with a brain think the Rakell's and Smiths' of the world are going to elevate Geno enough to get that old play from him.

The time was last year to move him to wing. That could have been with Miller (maybe) - but absolutely should be with Sid if we move on from Jake. We're already a 1-line team so the focus should be filling out depth and finding a system to support that depth. I'd love a Kadri 2C tbh.

To close that thought - you could run Kadri as 2C with Smith/Rakell if they don't move - who makes only 1M more than Guentzel currently. That's money in money out. Jake hopefully brings something decent back and I'd argue this team is a better team tomorrow with that roster without Jake on it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I tend to agree that this team if constituted differently but with most of the same core pieces could be a playoff team. It just simply cannot play the kind of game the FO/coaching staff thinks it can anymore.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... of course this team has enough talent that it should be at least a wildcard team pretty solidly. I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from the optimistic sort and I had these guys getting in this year with relative ease.

Couldn't say why the results don't line up with the ability, though. Must be Ron Hextall's fault.

 

[molon labe]

I mean... of course this team has enough talent that it should be at least a wildcard team pretty solidly. I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from the optimistic sort and I had these guys getting in this year with relative ease.

Couldn't say why the results don't line up with the ability, though. Must be Ron Hextall's fault.

We need that impactful C. Not EK.

I mean, like others - EK was miles better than what we gave up for him - but we did NOT need Zucker 2.0 with Smith.

If we could land Kadri today to center line 2, lose Jake for futures, you literally check all boxes.

Rust-Sid-Geno
Rakell-Kadri-Smith
X-Eller-X
Whatever... + Carter

- That roster performs better than the one we have today with Jake on it. Geno is absolutely the best option to replace Jake should we move on from him. He's got the chemistry with Sid, has the hands, has the vision, has the IQ - and his lapses on a line like that could absolutely be balanced by Sid. It's that line 2 without Geno we've never considered that I think could just be structured a bit differently to get different styles of goals. Kadri/Smith could play well off one another. You can still rotate Rust and Rakell to different degrees of success.

Frankly - I'd personally work in Huberdeau into the deal if that's what it took to get Kadri. I'd downgrade EK to upgrade the offense since having Letang/EK has already proven NOT to elevate mediocre forward group.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree with a lot of that. I will say that it's become obvious that in this system at least the idea of trying to jumpstart your middle-of-the-road, milquetoast forward group from the back end seems like folly. Trying to play the low-to-high tip game without any net front presence probably has a lot to do with that, though. But I'm sure they aren't being coached to do that (for years) and it's just the players fault.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm sure they'll do it because they can't help themselves, but respectfully, this team being a buyer is f***ing asinine.

-edit- A few of us have been clamoring for guys like Coleman and Bennett for years to bolster the top-9 and get a bit more snarl/muscle (without sacrificing the playing ability), but I have no idea how you even approach revamping a roster as set for the next few years as this one is. Eight of twelve forwards are here next year or longer. The top-4 on the blueline are as well. Unless Dubas really starts performing some major surgery to the lineup, this bland slopshit hockey is what we're gonna get until Sid decides he's done. Even if Dubas changed out a bunch of parts to shift the paradigm of this team's on-ice product, you still need to start at square one; firing the coaching staff.

 

[molon labe]

I agree with a lot of that. I will say that it's become obvious that in this system at least the idea of trying to jumpstart your middle-of-the-road, milquetoast forward group from the back end seems like folly. Trying to play the low-to-high tip game without any net front presence probably has a lot to do with that, though. But I'm sure they aren't being coached to do that (for years) and it's just the players fault.

Everyone who watches the game regularly knows the coach and his system(s?) have been a huge part of the failures we've had. They'd also know his control over the roster (dressed) and roster (constructed). That entire group has needed to go for some time now (4 years?)

System and roster both need to change. I just have to take breaks from preaching to the choir about the system/coach and have lately focused on the roster.

I'm sure they'll do it because they can't help themselves, but respectfully, this team being a buyer is f***ing asinine.

We quite literally can't be a buyer.

We can trade though.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Everyone who watches the game regularly knows the coach and his system(s?) have been a huge part of the failures we've had. They'd also know his control over the roster (dressed) and roster (constructed). That entire group has needed to go for some time now (4 years?)

System and roster both need to change. I just have to take breaks from preaching to the choir about the system/coach and have lately focused on the roster.

No I get it I just can't help but be sardonic haha

I wouldn't say "everyone" though. There are plenty that still insist that the players are like... intentionally doing the same stupid things over and over again for years and somehow even though they don't approve the coaching staff is being made to allow it for... reasons.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Everyone who watches the game regularly knows the coach and his system(s?) have been a huge part of the failures we've had. They'd also know his control over the roster (dressed) and roster (constructed). That entire group has needed to go for some time now (4 years?)

System and roster both need to change. I just have to take breaks from preaching to the choir about the system/coach and have lately focused on the roster.


We quite literally can't be a buyer.

We can trade though.

Same shit. This team needs to start subtracting, starting with Sullivan and Reirden any time, as well as Jake by the TDL. Too many guys are locked in for too long, some with NTC or absurd cap hits, to make any notable difference at this stage of the era. That's the reality. /shrug

And again, I expect FSG and the FO to keep up this bullshit masquerade which is just years of rebuilding hockey without the benefit of being a team with zero chance at a Cup (top prospects added to the organization). I'm just saying it's f***ing dumb, and a little bit pathetic anymore.

-edit- Also, this sentiment of "do right by Sid" and "gosh we're so spoiled/priveleged as fans" is cringe as f***.

(Neither post or point was directed toward you. Just in general--mainly shouting at the void as if FSG and Dubas can hear. )

 

[molon labe]

Same shit. This team needs to start subtracting, starting with Sullivan and Reirden any time, as well as Jake by the TDL. Too many guys are locked in for too long, some with NTC or absurd cap hits, to make any notable difference at this stage of the era. That's the reality. /shrug

And again, I expect FSG and the FO to keep up this bullshit masquerade which is just years of rebuilding hockey without the benefit of being a team with zero chance at a Cup (top prospects added to the organization). I'm just saying it's f***ing dumb, and a little bit pathetic anymore.

-edit- Also, this sentiment of "do right by Sid" and "gosh we're so spoiled/priveleged as fans" is cringe as f***.

(Neither post or point was directed toward you. Just in general--mainly shouting at the void as if FSG and Dubas can hear. )

So adding any player - unless through the draft is bad in your eyes? That's just jaded lenses.

Answer probably lies somewhere in the middle but just saying tear it down for the sake of it - doesn't have a track record either. Unless you have a clear goal in mind (Bedard - who's now long gone) - pointless almost. Those teams almost always just stay middle of the pack even moreso than these claimed Penguins (see Detroit).

You can definitely trade your way into success when you have a couple core pieces. But cap management just becomes all that more focused.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So adding any player - unless through the draft is bad in your eyes? That's just jaded lenses.

Answer probably lies somewhere in the middle but just saying tear it down for the sake of it - doesn't have a track record either. Unless you have a clear goal in mind (Bedard - who's now long gone) - pointless almost. Those teams almost always just stay middle of the pack even moreso than these claimed Penguins (see Detroit).

You can definitely trade your way into success when you have a couple core pieces. But cap management just becomes all that more focused.

I mean, I'm fine adding players for the next chapter. You build a legit contender through the draft. That's how this team won 3 Cups in the era, and where the vast majority of winners were built. You definitely don't tinker or perform major surgery to add to a team pockmarked with 36 year olds and about to be six years removed from seeing the 2nd round, with zero help coming in the way of prospects.

Yeah, I think they should trade Jake for a haul of futures at the TDL, fire the coaching staff as soon as the season's over (immediately, really, but whether it be after the RS or after they putz around for a week of playoff hockey), and start seeing if teams would be interested in guys like Rust, Rakell, EK and Petts this summer. I realize Rust and EK have NTC but if you find a landing spot and a trade that works, ask 'em to waive.

This team's already got the same shot at the Cup as a team like Ottawa, Buffalo, Chicago, etc. Zero. Might as well start getting something for being losers.

 

[Darren McCord]

I tend to agree that this team if constituted differently but with most of the same core pieces could be a playoff team. It just simply cannot play the kind of game the FO/coaching staff thinks it can anymore.

if you change coaching and the powerplay is average they are in a playoff spot. You dont even need to change the roster for that.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I was doing the math this morning and they have to go 25-13 down the stretch. That is a .657 winning percentage. That gets them to 98 points.

If they keep going at their current pace, they will have 68 points at the trade deadline and would need to go 15-5 to get to 98 points.

The math is not in their favor unless they pick it up massively. IMO, they need to go on a 10-12 game win streak to make it happen.

 

[HandshakeLine]

if you change coaching and the powerplay is average they are in a playoff spot. You dont even need to change the roster for that.

I know, which is why it's baffling that we never even consider this.

No I get it I just can't help but be sardonic haha

I wouldn't say "everyone" though. There are plenty that still insist that the players are like... intentionally doing the same stupid things over and over again for years and somehow even though they don't approve the coaching staff is being made to allow it for... reasons.

let's face it, nobody likes to lose like Sidney Crosby.

 

[66-30-33]

Rierden is as untouchable as Sullivan.

 

[Darren McCord]

I know, which is why it's baffling that we never even consider this.

Also like just change reirden why is he untouchable too. Like I get the sully thing but put someone else in the staff.

Do something. I am iffy in Dubas summer but he is absolutely just as bad as Hextall if he sits with this.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know, which is why it's baffling that we never even consider this.

Dying on the coaching hill is always pretty silly.

In the NHL it's downright malpractice.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also like just change reirden why is he untouchable too. Like I get the sully thing but put someone else in the staff.

Do something. I am iffy in Dubas summer but he is absolutely just as bad as Hextall if he sits with this.

Yeah, like I'll buy that maybe a dumb owner like FSG doesn't want to bite the bullet on a $5 million pay out per year to a head coach they shouldn't have pressured the FO to sign an extension for. But it's a f***ing AC!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Dying on the coaching hill is always pretty silly.

In the NHL it's downright malpractice.

I miss when the cliche rang true that NHL coaches were hired to be fired.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Same shit. This team needs to start subtracting, starting with Sullivan and Reirden any time, as well as Jake by the TDL. Too many guys are locked in for too long, some with NTC or absurd cap hits, to make any notable difference at this stage of the era. That's the reality. /shrug

And again, I expect FSG and the FO to keep up this bullshit masquerade which is just years of rebuilding hockey without the benefit of being a team with zero chance at a Cup (top prospects added to the organization). I'm just saying it's f***ing dumb, and a little bit pathetic anymore.

-edit- Also, this sentiment of "do right by Sid" and "gosh we're so spoiled/priveleged as fans" is cringe as f***.

(Neither post or point was directed toward you. Just in general--mainly shouting at the void as if FSG and Dubas can hear. )

Yeah. We have had no tangible success since 2018 and we have an organization committed to running out the string. People are present-biased. The rearview means something, but it diminishes by~20% or so each year.

Actually more based on below meta-study.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://docs.iza.org/dp14625.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj3iOnQlPmDAxV5MVkFHclcDcAQFnoECDAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw36FyJgC_bxcPinysvt4ygb

 

[HandshakeLine]

I love that we lucked into a worse ownership than the f***ing Kraken.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I miss when the cliche rang true that NHL coaches were hired to be fired.

Oh it's still very true. It's just that the Penguins think they know better.

And with results like these who can argue?