Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Anyone still enamored with Bryan "Ultimate Penguin" Rust?

Oh, I can think of a couple guys.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Oh, I can think of a couple guys.

The broadcast team and media doesn't count. They're idiots.

 

[vodeni]

I feel catering to Sid has contributed greatly to the mess we’re in so I’m not as enthused about him as others.

not sure about this...what did you mean by catering to Sid?..play with Jake? why not, they suck defensively but they are still overwhelmingly positive, so why not? He's been carrying this team for a while, what else Sid wants that is a detriment to this club success? I can't think of anything.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

not sure about this...what did you mean by catering to Sid?..play with Jake? why not, they suck defensively but they are still overwhelmingly positive, so why not? He's been carrying this team for a while, what else Sid wants that is a detriment to this club success? I can't think of anything.

Well... (supposedly) lobbying to bring Malkin back, yeah? Seeing as how that's a unanimous and unmitigated disaster that has cost the team two straight years (or was it five?) of misery single-handedly I'd say that's a pretty egregious one.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The broadcast team and media doesn't count. They're idiots.

Sullivan, Michael. Crosby, Sidney.

 

[molon labe]

I agree, I hate the way we've built the team. Sullivan insists on the:

Scoring Line 1
Scoring Line 2
Defensive Line
Checking Line

model which hasn't been successful in today's NHL in quite some time. They need to go back to the 2016 model of:

Scoring Line 1
Scoring Line 2
Scoring Line-lite 3
Defensive Line

Looking at who was available in free agency, they could have built a team like that. We still could:

Jake-Sid-Rust
DOC-Malkin-Puustinen
Smith-Eller-Rakell
Nieto-Acciari-Carter

But...we refuse.

I agree but would like two assholes thrown into the fold. One is none.

Whether that's Kadri or an overly physical defender - it can't just be what we have. The problem with what we have is that it outright SUCKS. I'm not sure what era it wouldn't suck - so no clue what they saw constructing the roster.

The problem with what you've built - is that it still depends heavily on a line 2 centered by Geno without playmaking help. He needs someone like Kadri, Huberdeau, Tarasenko, etc - to either make a play to him or finish his own. If L2 is cold - that roster is tough going. What's more worrisome - is that type of roster will get absolutely folded against a team like the Panthers. That's why those clubs are hot right now - everyone followed the Pens 2016 and teams like the Blues and Vegas and (nearly) Florida just bullied those teams. You can't be one dimensional anymore. But I don't think the solution is 50/50 (like we have now) - it's more 90/10. Push your identity most nights. Get some scumbag goals on others (why the Hornqvist absence has been felt more than any other).

 

[Gurglesons]

No matter what you change Mike Sullivan will always be there.

 

[Darren McCord]

It's a touchy subject and a slippery slope. You need a good relationship between the GM and HC, and they both need to be on the same page. Otherwise, you get the Sullivan and Hextall relationship and get guys like Granlund. Or even with JR - Reaves, and Sullivan sticks him on the 4th line for 5min a game.

Dubas controls the roster but Sullivan controls the lineup. The better solution is to fire Sullivan.

I think for the first year Dubas is deferring to Sully because its been his team and you have new owners and management. Sullivan is the only one to have survived ecerything. I don't agree with it but I do see Dubas just giving Sully everything he wants for the year.

The truth behind everything is Dubas probably doesn't care about this year or the next two. He's treading water until Sid, Geno and Letang are gone so it can be HIS team.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas if things go south will move quicker if he can on the retool. I do think he knows this is simply not working but hoped it would. Just no moves except Jake. Smith injured is on a 2 year deal so Dubas didn't give out deals that were killers here. He can move Karlsson after next year and Rust as well. Rust actually has a salary that is not bad as to cash outlay. Geno also has a declining salary as well. So add a LW who fits the rebuild next year. Add a RD with size and grit. Two years from now Pens will have a core with Pickering, Yager, Poulin Puusitien, DOC as keepers. Finsh in top 10 draft and hope for lottery draw is favorable. After next year: Draft picks for Rust, Karlsson, Geno and the deal moving jake adds talent to be developed. Unforuately, this will take years to rebuild the kind of talent to be a cup contender. But it can be done with puck luck.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think for the first year Dubas is deferring to Sully because its been his team and you have new owners and management. Sullivan is the only one to have survived ecerything. I don't agree with it but I do see Dubas just giving Sully everything he wants for the year.

The truth behind everything is Dubas probably doesn't care about this year or the next two. He's treading water until Sid, Geno and Letang are gone so it can be HIS team.

Letang is here for 4 more years.

Dubas is somehow worse than Hextall so far.

 

[Andy99]

The broadcast team and media doesn't count. They're idiots.

I think he meant Mike Sullivan lol

 

[Ryder71]

I’m slowly coming around to the realization that Mike Sullivan is going to potentially outlast Sidney Crosby in Pittsburgh.

Sullivan is probably better suited for a reclamation than aged out stars.

Anyone still enamored with Bryan "Ultimate Penguin" Rust or Ricky "5 Goals But Little Things" Rakell?

No, however with their onerous limitations (NMC's) they can't easily be moved. But Jake can and he'll bring a Kings ransom! Dubas just has to maximize the return.

 

[HandshakeLine]

not sure about this...what did you mean by catering to Sid?..play with Jake? why not, they suck defensively but they are still overwhelmingly positive, so why not? He's been carrying this team for a while, what else Sid wants that is a detriment to this club success? I can't think of anything.

Extending Sullivan, playing the way they do on the PP, the style of game the team plays, GCR— these are all things that Sid has some major pull in, and that’s not even getting to him preferring to play with certain kinds of players or getting JR to sign Jack Johnson as a favor to ol’ Jack.

I love Sid but dude did his share to make this team as shitty as it is now. That’s all. If there was a firmer voice in the FO or coaching staff it’d be a moot point but we got nothing but sheer cowards working for us there.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Like if Sid thought this team was actually in trouble there’d be changes made instantly. But Sid clearly doesn’t see a problem, which is itself one of the major problems.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Extending Sullivan, playing the way they do on the PP, the style of game the team plays, GCR— these are all things that Sid has some major pull in, and that’s not even getting to him preferring to play with certain kinds of players or getting JR to sign Jack Johnson as a favor to ol’ Jack.

I love Sid but dude did his share to make this team as shitty as it is now. That’s all. If there was a firmer voice in the FO or coaching staff it’d be a moot point but we got nothing but sheer cowards working for us there.

I think a lot of this is the team and whoever is in charge of it at the time kowtowing to him, But I can see how it's functionally the same in some ways. But I don't think Sid outright demands much if anything. It just doesn't really seem in his nature but it's not like we're pals or anything so who knows, really.

At least in regards to JJ... that could have very well been exclusively a JR thing, too. Remember that JJ was "the one that got away" from JR years before that. And he could have just been like "hey Sid isn't this neat... I signed your buddy!"

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think a lot of this is the team and whoever is in charge of it at the time kowtowing to him, But I can see how it's functionally the same in some ways. But I don't think Sid outright demands much if anything. It just doesn't really seem in his nature but it's not like we're pals or anything so who knows, really.

At least in regards to JJ... that could have very well been exclusively a JR thing, too. Remember that JJ was "the one that got away" from JR years before that. And he could have just been like "hey Sid isn't this neat... I signed your buddy!"

For sure, but that blind spot is one of the ways we got into this mess. Sometimes Sid isn’t the alpha and the omega and you have to not kowtow to him.

But I think the bigger problem is that Sid can’t really admit that something isn’t working anymore so we get stuck in this weird holding pattern where it’s simply bad luck or puck luck that costs us, not the style or coach or roster because Sid can’t cotton to that.

It’s beyond me how Sid doesn’t get any share of the blame for the PP even though he’s a major reason for it being the way it is.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

For sure, but that blind spot is one of the ways we got into this mess. Sometimes Sid isn’t the alpha and the omega and you have to not kowtow to him.

But I think the bigger problem is that Sid can’t really admit that something isn’t working anymore so we get stuck in this weird holding pattern where it’s simply bad luck or puck luck that costs us, not the style or coach or roster because Sid can’t cotton to that.

It's a fine balance. I don't have a problem catering a bit to franchise players. Especially ones that have won everything for you and arguably had a big hand in saving the franchise. Hell it's a LOT better than catering to... oh... I dunno... coaches.

But yeah I mean... at this point it's probably time to gently remind dude that shits looking dire and a change of tack isn't suggested but definitely happening regardless.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I wonder what this team would have looked like if we catered to Letang or Malkin in their prime, to be quite honest?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It’s beyond me how Sid doesn’t get any share of the blame for the PP even though he’s a major reason for it being the way it is.

Simply put... there will always be lower hanging fruit. Maybe when everyone gets their wish and the knockaround guys are shipped off to environs unknown shit will start hitting his fan here and there. But he's Sid. He's a living hockey legend. And while by no means perfect most Penguins fans are gonna handwave a hell of a lot with him. I'm not even mad about it or anything. It's just expected.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wonder what this team would have looked like if we catered to Letang or Malkin in their prime, to be quite honest?

Probably bad but in a different way.

The answer of course is to not try to shoehorn your best players you've been gifted into any particular system, way you WANT them to play or linemate situation and instead try to put them individually in the best positions to succeed. If your system only allows for 1/4ish of your core to be successful then you're f***in' up.

I don't understand why NHL coaches and GMs think they have to paint with such broad strokes. It's just lazy.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Extending Sullivan, playing the way they do on the PP, the style of game the team plays, GCR— these are all things that Sid has some major pull in, and that’s not even getting to him preferring to play with certain kinds of players or getting JR to sign Jack Johnson as a favor to ol’ Jack.

I love Sid but dude did his share to make this team as shitty as it is now. That’s all. If there was a firmer voice in the FO or coaching staff it’d be a moot point but we got nothing but sheer cowards working for us there.

The greatest players very rarely make the greatest executives.

I am 100% sure Sid has told Hextall, Rutherford, Dubas and FSG he loves Sully as well. Contrary to all this board's projection onto Crosby, there is nothing that indicates Sid is dissatisfied with MS or ever has been.

 

[Turin]

I would kill to have the 15 million combined salary of Smith, Rust and Rakell off the team.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I would kill to have the 15 million combined salary of Smith, Rust and Rakell off the team.

Truer words.

This is far more a drag on this team than people seem to be copping to.

EDIT: I'm sorry but these guys just aren't "perfectly fine top six players." You could probably get this kind of production and consistency from a wide swath of guys and at far cheaper. Rust started out on fire. Woo hoo. So did Malkin and it hasn't let him off the hook. Raks was great last year. Well that was last year. He looks like ZAR this year. Smith... lol... bye, bud. We hardly knew ye.

 

[canadianguy77]

Like if Sid thought this team was actually in trouble there’d be changes made instantly. But Sid clearly doesn’t see a problem, which is itself one of the major problems.

Im constantly amazed at the number of posters on here who have access to that guy’s most inner thoughts and desires. If you guys are that close to him, why don’t you yourselves try and influence his decisions? Because if i’m reading it right, if you’re close to Sidney Crosby, you basically have direct communication with the players, coaches, management and ownership all in one fell swoop, because Sidney Crosby is all of those things.

Must be exhausting trying to keep up with it all…

 

[SEALBound]

I agree but would like two assholes thrown into the fold. One is none.

Whether that's Kadri or an overly physical defender - it can't just be what we have. The problem with what we have is that it outright SUCKS. I'm not sure what era it wouldn't suck - so no clue what they saw constructing the roster.

The problem with what you've built - is that it still depends heavily on a line 2 centered by Geno without playmaking help. He needs someone like Kadri, Huberdeau, Tarasenko, etc - to either make a play to him or finish his own. If L2 is cold - that roster is tough going. What's more worrisome - is that type of roster will get absolutely folded against a team like the Panthers. That's why those clubs are hot right now - everyone followed the Pens 2016 and teams like the Blues and Vegas and (nearly) Florida just bullied those teams. You can't be one dimensional anymore. But I don't think the solution is 50/50 (like we have now) - it's more 90/10. Push your identity most nights. Get some scumbag goals on others (why the Hornqvist absence has been felt more than any other).

You just need your skill to be better than the other team's physicality. Everyone kept saying "Oh, we'll just hit the 2016 Pens team! That will work!" and the Penguins dummied everyone pretty easily. You need to build your team around who you have as your core and the style that suits them best. The problem with the "gets some scumbags" (which, I totally agree and want as well) is that it's tough to find scumbags who aren't liabilities who are reasonably available. The Wilsons, Tkachuks, and Troubas of the league get snatched up pretty well. Then you have to pay Jeannot like returns for them because they are such a rare commodity.

I think for the first year Dubas is deferring to Sully because its been his team and you have new owners and management. Sullivan is the only one to have survived ecerything. I don't agree with it but I do see Dubas just giving Sully everything he wants for the year.

The truth behind everything is Dubas probably doesn't care about this year or the next two. He's treading water until Sid, Geno and Letang are gone so it can be HIS team.

I think he does. His legacy in Pittsburgh begins with handling the remaining years of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. If you fail them, you start your legacy as a failure. I don't think Dubas has that level of individual ownership that would make him think that.

I would kill to have the 15 million combined salary of Smith, Rust and Rakell off the team.

3 of 4 top 6 wings, eh?

To be replace by who? Name names.