Post-Game Talk: Pens 2, Oilers 1: The Junior Player Edition

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

More like "This team, who hasn't always been otherworldly at scoring in the playoffs, has always been elite offensively during the regular season. We have the deepest group of forwards we've ever, and likely will ever have in the Sid and Geno era, and we're scoring like a lottery team. We can't scratch/dress the right players, we can't get TOI distribution correct, and we can't get lines correct. Our goals against numbers are skewed to all Hell because our goaltenders have been unreal through ~15 games. I can see with my own eyes, and recognize the fact that our blueline sucks ass, and that our prolific scorers (Sid, Geno, Kessel) are all producing at a fraction of their normal rates--and have been since MJ's arrival. The PP has been hot doo-doo for a calendar year, despite boasting the most firepower in the league for the man-advantage."

Anyone who cites the facts is not overreacting. We've just seen this movie before. Again, and again, and again, and again.

The blueline isn't going to get any better as long as Cole plays anywhere above the bottom pairing, Scuderi continues to dress, Letang doesn't get his head out of his ass, Maatta doesn't shake off the rust, and our coach stops trying to spread the talent too thin. It's not a "they're just having a rough stretch" scenario. Cole's not a top-4 guy, he's a good bottom pairing guy, but he's not a top-4 defenseman. Maatta's got a ton of work to do in order to get back to what we saw in his rookie year, and he's not gonna do it while dragging around Scuderi or Lovejoy. Letang's playing garbage, stupid hockey again, and has not only been bad defensively for someone of his talent and athleticism, he's been a non-factor in transition and on the PP.

Forgive me for looking at things realistically, and not being super excited about going 9-4 to start the season, all things considered.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, if you only look at the negatives, then I guess saying this team sucks is realistic. I think I have a gold star for you somewhere. Just ignore how well the bottom-6 has produced and played and how well Fleury has been playing and you can realistically say the Pens suck.

Your argument is essentially Fleury is guaranteed to regress (completely true) and there is no possible chance the top-6 or D rebound. If you look at it like that, then I can understand why you think this team sucks. I just think it's stupid to think that way. I just don't understand why people have to jump to extremes (they suck or they're great). This is a good team that has flaws.

 

[radapex]

Everything Is Awesome!

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying it has the potential to be. It'll come down to the coaching staff making the right adjustments over the course of the season, and JR bringing in the pieces that need to be addressed.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I can't deny that it's pretty sad there's so much complaining despite the fact we're winning. Granted it's the old "winnin' ugly" thing that some teams go through (in all sports), and aspects of our game are not encourging right now. But we ****ing won some games here; even a proverbial sith lord has to see some positives in that. Are we winning some games despite ourselves or maybe because it's still early and some opponents haven't found their groove? Yeah probably, but we (hopefully) haven't hit ours yet either.

Force Dupuis to retire and get Scuderi out of here and I'll be reasonably happy as a fan for now. Reality is no matter what team you are there will always be one old guy or one slow guy or one dumb guy on your team that you don't want on your team. That's hockey in the cap era. My biggest concern right now is I don't recognize Sid a lot of the time as the player I used to watch. And listening to ROOT tell us how he's "dominating" is a ****ing laugh-and-a-half.

A lot of the fire seems to be gone from him and consequently the team. I don't generally see the same issue with Geno; he's out there playing a good 200 foot game most of the time and playing with some zip to his game. But overall, I often get the impression I'm watching a star player (Sid) and his team in a "full speed scrimmage". I know we're a talented team overall and maybe a very confident in itself team but I don't see much urgency in the way we skate and make passes sometimes, or in the way sometimes try to make these extra passes in the offensive zone. I feel like I'm watching a team that thinks to itself "boy we have a lot of talent and can turn it on at any time, so let's just play it cool and zoom around a bit and make some snappy thread passes and it'll eventually go in for us... we're too good not to score."

As opposd to "I have to out-hustle this guy standing next to me if I want to get to the right spots with or without the puck." or "I want that god-damned puck!" Even though he's not the only one with this issue, that's what I miss the most from Sid. He used to own that f-ing puck and area around the puck. He wanted it more than any two players around him and still managed to get great shots and passes off. I don't know where that guy went but I don't think we can blame it on Devils Hockey Era 2.0 or the coach.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

The stars, who took the pens out behind the woodshed and who everyone is pointing to as an excuse for a couple of their losses in order to convince themselves to feel better about their record have given up 15 more goals than the pens. What a joke right? Real teams sacrifice everything for defense. Except they've scored 21 more goals in the process. Probably because they realize their roster advantage over other teams is in their forwards and thus are playing in a way to execute that advantage, and it's working. Or what about mtl and nyr? Both with similar defensive success but with far better offensive production. Coaching apparently doesn't have to be an all or nothing concept.

It can and likely will be argued that the Stars won't be competing for the Stanley Cup. They're like the young, fun offensive Pens of seasons past, that were a force in the regular season but couldn't play the type of game to win in the playoffs against the top teams.

Benn is a different monster in that he has the size to fight through, but even Seguin, who can score from range, is like to be stopped by playoff hockey - which includes systems, officiating, and player defensive commitment.

Playing like the Stars would be more exciting, lead to more goals, but ultimately haven't we been down that road before? Admittedly each time prior we weren't a team built around Sid and Geno vs. now I would argue we are more so.

I'll get down with the "we're relearning how to play defensive hockey to win when it matters" just because I prefer something positive at the moment, but it's always in the forefront of my mind that outside of much better defense from our centers our defense is still not good enough to prevent serious danger from high percentage areas.

Yakupov will score when Cole backs into the zone and throws his body weight to the boards eventually. Scudjoy's penchant for letting slot passes from behind the net will go in eventually. Taylor Hall back hand toe-drag to pull the puck between the dots is going to get sniped eventually. And that's just against the Oilers.

 

[pistolpete11]

Everyone keeps talking about Pouliot replacing Letang on the top PP unit. In the long run, I think it's their best shot at having a deadly PP too, but in the meantime, how about Dumoulin? He's been getting better and better with every game and is showing more confidence. His back skating, finding a lane, and getting a shot through last night was impressive. He's not quite as fast as Letang to cover up if they turn the puck over, but he's not too far off.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Oh and

-- for Root Sports broadcast team. Clowns.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Everyone keeps talking about Pouliot replacing Letang on the top PP unit. In the long run, I think it's their best shot at having a deadly PP too, but in the meantime, how about Dumoulin? He's been getting better and better with every game and is showing more confidence. His back skating, finding a lane, and getting a shot through last night was impressive. He's not quite as fast as Letang to cover up if they turn the puck over, but he's not too far off.

The issue with Dumoulin on the PP is that Letang's this organization's golden boy on the blueline. He'll never get taken off, regardless of his play or production.

It's the same reason I kind of chuckle whenever anyone mentions how good of a PPQB Pouliot is going to end up. Yeah, maybe, but here? Nah, not unless we start running with 2D and 3F on the power play. Letang's chiseled in stone on that top PP unit, now and forever. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Move Cole back to the right side and scratch Scuds so Maatta doesn't have to take over Simon's babysitting obligation while he gets his own game in order and I think the blueline outlook gets a lot more rosy.

 

[Tunez33]

Id take PH off Sid's line. Move Sprong up. Fehr becomes a good fit for those two.

If not that, something has to happen, Sid is just not getting the puck at all. We have two D-men who can move the puck well right now. And Sid has two guys on his line who cant skate the puck into the O-zone or get it to Sid with speed. Its dump and chase.

i think you try to swap kessel and horn again, with fehr on the left wing, i guarantee you that line will look a million times better. Only do this if es scoring continues to lack

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Move Cole back to the right side and scratch Scuds so Maatta doesn't have to take over Simon's babysitting obligation while he gets his own game in order and I think the blueline outlook gets a lot more rosy.

Maatta - Letang
XXXX - Dumo
Clendening/Lovejoy (shudder) - Cole

We swing one trade, big as it may be, for a #2/3, long-term d-man, and we're golden.

Pouliot, assuming he's not still a dumpster fire next season, can take over a spot on the bottom pair.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

i think you try to swap kessel and horn again, with fehr on the left wing, i guarantee you that line will look a million times better. Only do this if es scoring continues to lack

Geno and Kessel are flying almost every time their line is out there. I'm not breaking that up just to try and square-peg Sid and Kessel together again. If we need skill on Sid's wing, we have Sprong and Bennett, or Perron. Decide whichever wing guys will play on, but a combination of Sid, Hornqvist and one of those three would be just fine.

Assuming Hornqvist can/will transition to LW, and doesn't miss too much of a beat until he's comfortable;

Hornqvist - Crosby - Sprong/Bennett
Fehr - Malkin - Kessel
Perron - Bonino - Bennett/Sprong

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dumoulin-Letang
Maatta-Vatanen
Cole-Clendening/Lovejoy

Make it happen JR

 

[plaidchuck]

Giving up assets for a second pairing D would be a waste at this point. With how discombobulated the top six has looked, nothing can solve that without a certain captain pulling his head out of his ass.

And god can we stop with the suggestions for shoehorning players on off wings? Feels like bylsma is on here suggesting lines. Horns is a RW yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[ColePens]

I don't think there are people whining just to whine. People are bringing up very important ideas that the team needs to recognize going forward:
- Stop going into prevent.
- Powerplay
- Defensive pairings
- Old guys getting playing time over youth.

The Buffalo game is a good indicator of some issues. We were controlling play until we went into prevent and completely went into prevent and Buffalo owned the 3rd period.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Maatta - Letang
XXXX - Dumo
Clendening/Lovejoy (shudder) - Cole

We swing one trade, big as it may be, for a #2/3, long-term d-man, and we're golden.

Pouliot, assuming he's not still a dumpster fire next season, can take over a spot on the bottom pair.

IIRC, Dumo's left-side only. As good as Cole was last season, I'd be hesitant to write him off as a top 4 option when he's playing on his less comfortable side. I advocated him being tried with Letang before the season, but they're clearly struggling.

Maybe...

Maatta - Letang
Dumo - Cole
Pouliot - Lovejoy/Clendening

Or alternately...

Dumo - Letang
Maatta - Clendening
Pouliot - Cole

 

[DegenX]

IIRC, Dumo's left-side only. As good as Cole was last season, I'd be hesitant to write him off as a top 4 option when he's playing on his less comfortable side. I advocated him being tried with Letang before the season, but they're clearly struggling.

Maybe...

Maatta - Letang
Dumo - Cole
Pouliot - Lovejoy/Clendening

Or alternately...

Dumo - Letang
Maatta - Clendening
Pouliot - Cole

Bolded, please. Although, for Pooh to come up someone needs to go. We don't have enough cap space at the moment to recall anyone. That means a trade needs to happen, provided Duper doesn't go on LTIR or the hydra sacks up and waives Scuderi if they can.

 

[plaidchuck]

The team's problem is completely system related. Even with a healthy D group last year they looked like crap against the good teams.

And I don't see the system or staff changing when you see those "best defensive team in the league" headlines even if we know it's a fraud.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

IIRC, Dumo's left-side only. As good as Cole was last season, I'd be hesitant to write him off as a top 4 option when he's playing on his less comfortable side. I advocated him being tried with Letang before the season, but they're clearly struggling.

Maybe...

Maatta - Letang
Dumo - Cole
Pouliot - Lovejoy/Clendening

Or alternately...

Dumo - Letang
Maatta - Clendening
Pouliot - Cole

Eh, either way, I don't care what we classify the guy as number-wise, we need a 1st/2nd pairing defenseman in my opinion. A long-term option, not just a rental. That's our biggest need, by far and away, regarding personnel.

 

[plaidchuck]

I'm tired of this team spending more assets to fix problems they created in the first place.

 

[Boocock]

I don't think there are people whining just to whine. People are bringing up very important ideas that the team needs to recognize going forward:
- Stop going into prevent.
- Powerplay
- Defensive pairings
- Old guys getting playing time over youth.

The Buffalo game is a good indicator of some issues. We were controlling play until we went into prevent and completely went into prevent and Buffalo owned the 3rd period.

This. I think the second item is close to being corrected (when Kessel just controls the PP, it produces). But switching to prevent doesn't help - I don't understand why we can't play with the same defensive intensity that we do in the first period.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Bolded, please. Although, for Pooh to come up someone needs to go. We don't have enough cap space at the moment to recall anyone. That means a trade needs to happen, provided Duper doesn't go on LTIR or the hydra sacks up and waives Scuderi if they can.

I dunno, man. Are we really sold on Clendening being a 2nd pairing guy? We saw all of, what, 4 periods of hockey from him as a Penguin so far?

He couldn't be as bad as Scuderi, but that's a big risk.

As for Pouliot, he better have made leaps and bounds in his development and all-around play in WBS, cuz he was Scuderi-bad in camp/pre-season.

 

[Boocock]

I dunno, man. Are we really sold on Clendening being a 2nd pairing guy? We saw all of, what, 4 periods of hockey from him as a Penguin so far?

He couldn't be as bad as Scuderi, but that's a big risk.

As for Pouliot, he better have made leaps and bounds in his development and all-around play in WBS, cuz he was Scuderi-bad in camp/pre-season.

I'm not saying you're advocating for him not to be played. In fact, I figure you want him to be played. But, the only way for us to know exactly what we have in Clendening is for the coaching staff to put him in the lineup.

 

[DegenX]

I dunno, man. Are we really sold on Clendening being a 2nd pairing guy? We saw all of, what, 4 periods of hockey from him as a Penguin so far?

He couldn't be as bad as Scuderi, but that's a big risk.

As for Pouliot, he better have made leaps and bounds in his development and all-around play in WBS, cuz he was Scuderi-bad in camp/pre-season.

No, I'm not sold on Clendening being a 2nd pairing guy. I've been saying for a while now that we need to make a trade for a legit second pairing guy. With that said, it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon, so I think those pairings will make the most of what we have to work with at the moment.

 

[mpp9]

Maatta doesnt look like a guy who can handle a top pairing role right now. And you need Dumoulin separate from Letang to have any semblance of puck moving ability when 58 or 8 arent out there.

Tough problem to fix with this personnel. Gonna have to be a trade.