Pelle Lindbergh, as a Player

BlueBull

Habby Man
Oct 11, 2017
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Vancouver Island
Pelle Lindbergh's Legacy has always been known a Story of Heartbreak, and his car crash and subsequent death in 1985 is one of the darkest moments in NHL history.
However, his short-lived career has been overshadowed by the event, and thanks to that, While I do know he was very good, winning the Vezina in 1985, I never knew what made him one of the best goaltenders in the NHL.

To all of you old heads: What was it like to watch Lindbergh live? And what was it that made him such an elite goaltender?

Let's Discuss.
 
He was quick and flexible which came in good use since his style was more of a puck chaser. He was quite short (5’9) plus had quite short pads. Lots of net to cover for him to say the least. Pelle worked his ass off and sweated a lot so he inherited the bottle on top of cage in NHL.
 
At a point in time in which the reporting of some news wasn't always immediate, receiving updates especially from international leagues was through a Sunday sports column in a major metro newspaper or publications such as The Hockey News.

After the Flyers drafted Pelle Lindbergh. there were short blurbs on his abilities but that was customary at the time especially in lieu of current technology. The fact that the Flyers were his favorite team and Bernie Parent his top player -- as amplified by the similarities in masks -- was an added bonus.

Then came the 1980 Olympics. To see Lindbergh in that opening game against the US in which Bill Baker scored in the final 30 seconds, the script was written ideally. Lindbergh played solidly and the US got a much needed point and in dramatic style to set up what was to become one of the most enormous success stories in sports history. The US got gold and Sweden medaled as well.

Lindbergh's professional days weren't always met with success. He struggled and at times mightily to even warrant demotions. The Flyers defense in much of the early 1980s was injury-riddled and at times superstar forward Bill Barber moved to the blueline to fill in gaps. Until the "big four" of Mark Howe, Brad McCrimmon, Brad Marsh and Doug Crossman stabilized that area, there was a cacophony of inconsistency as highlighted by Frank Bathe (under 30 games played) being named the team's best defensemen in Lindbergh's first bout at the NHL.

Lindbergh showed promise in the following two seasons but there were hiccups along the way. He was an All-Star in 1982-83 and there was hope and optimism until suffering a wrist injury in an exhibition game against the Soviets. When he returned, a few days later, he was an All-Star goalie but as the story was written was part of a rookie hazing haircut ritual which along with a poor showing in the game followed him internally through insecurities. It was at times frustratiing and even nauseating for many involved including him. That next season was easily forgettable but in reality wasn't.

Eventually, under the guidance of rookie coach Mike Keenan, Lindbergh and the team reached a next level and blossomed. Freshness abounded. The team went from a foundation of possibilities to an exhilarating power. It was the expansion of youth and younger vets like Poulin, Propp, Kerr, Howe and Lindbergh that there was a new direction cut short in the 1985 Finals. Under Keenan, it was a much beloved team and Lindbergh was as much as the star as anyone in that era. Fans adored him. His personality was magnetic but his play exuded confidence. There was an aura of certainty that this was a group of players under a head coach who were an attachment to a community. It was fun. it was growing and it seemed something special awaited. Until that fatal night and life changed for all who had any emotional ties to that team.
 
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As a 9-year-old Oilers' fan, what I remember is that Lindbergh couldn't play in game five of the 1985 Finals... and as a result, the Oilers manhandled Philly, after what had been a quite close series to that point. So, aged 9, I thought, "Lindbergh must be good."
 
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As a 9-year-old Oilers' fan, what I remember is that Lindbergh couldn't play in game five of the 1985 Finals... and as a result, the Oilers manhandled Philly, after what had been a quite close series to that point. So, aged 9, I thought, "Lindbergh must be good."
I think Pelle went out of gas going into finals. He had played 65 regular games plus a long playoff run. His playing style was very exchausting.

Philly let in tons of goals in those 5 games against Edm.
 
Philly let in tons of goals in those 5 games against Edm.
Not really, no. They let in 1, 3, 4, and 5 goals with Lindbergh (mostly) in net (he wasn't in for Gretzky's second goal in game four). So, that's around 3.25 GPG against, which isn't great if you want to win the Cup, but it's not bad for mid-80s' and it's quite good vs. Edmonton. The Oilers only romped in game five when Lindbergh was out.
 
Given the results that mediocre goalies in Froese and Hextall got under Philly's defensive system after Lindbergh was killed, I think it's fair to wonder if he was just a 'pretty decent' goalie made great for that one year by Keenan's system and overrated since.

Bob Froese 1984-1986

68GP 44-12-3 2.50 .911

Pelle Lindbergh 1984-86

73 GP 46-19-7 3.00 .888
 
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One thing I remember about Lindbergh is that he did not come out and challenge as far out as most goalies of that era. He got up and down exceptionally fast as well. Also very good at finding and smothering loose pucks or rebounds that may have gotten a bit away from him. Also would not bite on dekes much or make the first move
 
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Given the results that mediocre goalies in Froese and Hextall got under Philly's defensive system after Lindbergh was killed, I think it's fair to wonder if he was just a 'pretty decent' goalie made great for that one year by Keenan's system and overrated since.

Bob Froese 1984-1986

68GP 44-12-3 2.50 .911

Pelle Lindbergh 1984-86

73 GP 46-19-7 3.00 .888

Flyers defensive system was better when Froese was there. He faced fewer shots by a large margin. Also goalies stat lines are really volatile. Hard to compare goalies like that.
 
Flyers defensive system was better when Froese was there. He faced fewer shots by a large margin. Also goalies stat lines are really volatile. Hard to compare goalies like that.

Except they also played together from 1982-84 and Froese had better numbers in both those seasons by a wide margin, too.

I know what all the arguments will be, but it’s kind of a crazy thing the way ‘journeyman’ Bob Froese statistically outperformed ‘superstar’ Pelle Lindbergh on the same teams over a 4 year period. It’s either an incredible statistical anomaly or the narrative doesn’t ring true.
 
Except they also played together from 1982-84 and Froese had better numbers in both those seasons by a wide margin, too.

I know what all the arguments will be, but it’s kind of a crazy thing the way ‘journeyman’ Bob Froese statistically outperformed ‘superstar’ Pelle Lindbergh on the same teams over a 4 year period. It’s either an incredible statistical anomaly or the narrative doesn’t ring true.

He had better numbers in one season. You can't honestly take his, what? 15 games in 85 as evidence of anything. Like I said. Goalie stats are volatile.

If Pelle wasnt so good. Why did Keenan of all people keep him in games for 60 mins? And use him as a starter if Froese was better?

And you seem to think he became a superstar after his death but he was a "superstar" before that. People didn't construct a narrative.
 
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He had better numbers in one season. You can't honestly take his, what? 15 games in 85 as evidence of anything. Like I said. Goalie stats are volatile.

If Pelle wasnt so good. Why did Keenan of all people keep him in games for 60 mins? And use him as a starter if Froese was better?

And you seem to think he became a superstar after his death but he was a "superstar" before that. People didn't construct a narrative.

Froese and Lindbergh played together for 4 years from 1982-83 through 1985-86. They both played ~150 games behind the exact same Philly teams, and both received more starts in 2 of those seasons.

Froese had better numbers in all 4 years individually and substantially better numbers cumulatively. Better W-L record and substantially better GAA and save %.

Again, I'm aware of what all the arguments will be. But the numbers don't line up with the narrative. Either Froese is way better than he's given credit for or Lindbergh is overrated because of one big season behind a great defensive team and because of the circumstances of his death. Or both.
 
Froese and Lindbergh played together for 4 years from 1982-83 through 1985-86. They both played ~150 games behind the exact same Philly teams, and both received more starts in 2 of those seasons.

Froese had better numbers in all 4 years individually and substantially better numbers cumulatively. Better W-L record and substantially better GAA and save %.

Again, I'm aware of what all the arguments will be. But the numbers don't line up with the narrative. Either Froese is way better than he's given credit for or Lindbergh is overrated because of one big season behind a great defensive team and because of the circumstances of his death. Or both.

Or Philly like any other team tightened up defensively when the lesser goalie was on the ice. Mostly starting games vs lesser opponents while resting Lindbergh another. The only season where you would have a point is the 84 season where Froese was better.

Also skip the whole "4 years together". They played 3 seasons on the same team. First season Lindbergh was the starter, second Froese and the third Lindbergh was the best goalie in the world and Froese played ~15 games. Then Pelle died.

The reason for Pelles superstardom isnt just because of "one great season hurr durr". He was voted Flyers best play er already in 83. Something Froese never was awarded.

So basically everyone in the Flyers organization as well as media thought Lindbergh was better at the time. Before his death. Its not a narrative, it's what happened.
 
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Froese and Lindbergh played together for 4 years from 1982-83 through 1985-86. They both played ~150 games behind the exact same Philly teams, and both received more starts in 2 of those seasons.

Froese had better numbers in all 4 years individually and substantially better numbers cumulatively. Better W-L record and substantially better GAA and save %.

Again, I'm aware of what all the arguments will be. But the numbers don't line up with the narrative. Either Froese is way better than he's given credit for or Lindbergh is overrated because of one big season behind a great defensive team and because of the circumstances of his death. Or both.

There was a year where Bunny Laroque had better numbers than Dryden.

You just didn’t see how much more confident the team played when Lindbergh was in net vs Froese. No shocker that the flyers were upset the year he passed away. They were always on the lookout for an upgrade and finally got it with Hextall. They recaptured the spark with a young Hextall, who was incredible his rookie year, but he just couldn’t maintain it due to too heavy a workload and little injuries. Teams played nervous with Froese. If you saw it you’d know.
 
In passing, it seemed to me that Lindbergh was a little bit out of control sometimes. But he certainly had a lot of potential. I think he's one of those goalies that might have been able to survive on bad defensive teams if he had to...but also had the sense and the technical know-how to be dependable behind a strong defensive team (which we saw briefly).

Froese seemed much weaker technically and a weak skater. Gave up a goal per game more after leaving Philadelphia, unsurprisingly.
 
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Or Philly like any other team tightened up defensively when the lesser goalie was on the ice. Mostly starting games vs lesser opponents while resting Lindbergh another. The only season where you would have a point is the 84 season where Froese was better.

Also skip the whole "4 years together". They played 3 seasons on the same team. First season Lindbergh was the starter, second Froese and the third Lindbergh was the best goalie in the world and Froese played ~15 games. Then Pelle died.

The reason for Pelles superstardom isnt just because of "one great season hurr durr". He was voted Flyers best play er already in 83. Something Froese never was awarded.

So basically everyone in the Flyers organization as well as media thought Lindbergh was better at the time. Before his death. Its not a narrative, it's what happened.

There was a year where Bunny Laroque had better numbers than Dryden.

You just didn’t see how much more confident the team played when Lindbergh was in net vs Froese. No shocker that the flyers were upset the year he passed away. They were always on the lookout for an upgrade and finally got it with Hextall. They recaptured the spark with a young Hextall, who was incredible his rookie year, but he just couldn’t maintain it due to too heavy a workload and little injuries. Teams played nervous with Froese. If you saw it you’d know.

I'm aware of all these arguments. But they're all kinda hearsay, you know?

Like, there is a huge difference in the reputations and the narrative around these two players. This isn't Fuhr/Moog where maybe there's a statistical advantage for Moog at times but Fuhr's reputation is better but it's a case where one is 'great' and the other is 'really good'. One of these guys is considered a superstar cut down in his prime. The other is considered a journeyman backup who had a fluke season behind a great defensive system in Philly.

And for a gulf in reputations to that extent, you'd think you'd be able to find some actual statistical evidence to back it up. That Lindbergh's greatness would be borne out in the statistics (or at least some of the statistics!) relative to Froese. But that didn't happen - and in fact it's quite the opposite.

And again, it isn't like this was a 70/10 split for 4 years like Brodeur or Hasek's backups. Froese was called up midway through 82-83 season and started 24 of the final 40 games. Then started a majority in 83-84. Then was obviously the clear backup in 84-85 before starting 50 games in 85-86 after Lindbergh was killed. Froese was seeing a starter-type workload for the majority of the time while putting up better numbers than Lindbergh was with a starter workload.

If the 'looked nervous with Froese' thing was accurate, then you'd expect they scored significantly less with Froese in net and won fewer games. Again, that didn't happen.

Bunny Laraque never had a better save % than Dryden, and there was only one year when it was even close.
 
And for a gulf in reputations to that extent, you'd think you'd be able to find some actual statistical evidence to back it up. That Lindbergh's greatness would be borne out in the statistics (or at least some of the statistics!) relative to Froese. But that didn't happen - and in fact it's quite the opposite.
I don't think it's the opposite, even based on the stats. It's entirely fair to ask that question of whether Lindbergh's reputation is possibly overinflated, as it's not unusual in cases where careers are cut short too early, but I do think Lindbergh was clearly the more talented goalie and Froese's reputation was mainly bolstered by one great season (as is general consensus), and that conclusion is defensible given the statistical record.

You're trying to make a talent argument (Lindbergh may have been only "pretty good"), and you're using performance stats as evidence, but talent and performance are not the same thing. Performance is only relevant as far as it reflects talent, and there are very good reasons to suggest that for an extended period of time from his injury in 1983 to the end of the 1983-84 season, Pelle Lindbergh was not performing at anywhere near his actual talent level.

Here's the breakdown:

PeriodWLTGAASv%
1982-83 (Before wrist injury)
16​
7​
3​
2.70​
0.902​
1982-83 (After wrist injury)
7​
9​
0​
4.07​
0.849​
1983-84 season​
16​
14​
3​
4.11​
0.859​
Rest of career
58​
25​
7​
2.91​
0.901​

(Note: All those numbers above are including playoffs)

The binomial probability of an .892 career goalie making 1192 or fewer saves on 1393 consecutive shots is .00002. The evidence seems pretty undeniable that injuries and personal struggles in that year and a half significantly disrupted Lindbergh's performance, and the obvious conclusion is that his results during that extended down period show primarily that something was wrong with him, not that he lacked elite talent, given the excellent results both before and after.

Some additional points:

1. NHL seasons don't happen in a vacuum. Lindbergh was a highly touted prospect (the first European goalie ever drafted by the NHL), he was representing Sweden internationally as a teenager, he was named the best goalie in the AHL in his first taste of North American action. Pretty much everything in his career through age 21 indicated that he had elite potential. Of course prospects don't always pan out or have linear development paths, but if we're trying to evaluate the talent level of a guy who played his last career game at age 26 they are definitely points in his favour.

2. Lindbergh was pretty unanimously the best Swedish goalie of his generation, and he played at a time when North American goaltending was pretty thin. I don't see any evidence at all to think that North American goaltending was surpassing European goaltending in the early to mid-'80s (if anything I'd maybe argue the opposite), so the idea that one of Europe's best was actually nothing special against a relatively weak talent pool doesn't strike me as particularly plausible, just a priori.

3. All Flyer goalies not named Froese or Lindbergh from 1982-83 to 1985-86 combined to go 25-18-4, 3.66, .877. That's not really overwhelming evidence of a huge defensive lift, it's worse than what the third goalies were doing in places like Long Island, Washington or Chicago. Keenan's system helped for sure, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that he was completely responsible for those goaltending results, and I do think that Hobnobs is correct that the Flyers likely peaked defensively in 1985-86 or later (they were actually quite a young team in Lindbergh's Vezina season, with an average skater age weighted by GP of just 23.7 in the 1985 playoffs).

4. Bob Froese had a strong 1985-86 season, but the rest of his performance in this period was definitely clearly a level below. In particular, his 1984-85 season was greatly aided by one of the weakest strength of schedules I've ever seen for a goalie with 15 or more GP (-0.52 as measured by Hockeygoalies.org). In that season, 48% of his shots faced came against the terrible Rangers and Penguins, and he posted a .946 against those two teams combined compared to a much more pedestrian .883 against the rest of the league.

In summary, Froese is probably a bit underrated given his actual results, even in an appropriate team context, but saying he was better all four seasons doesn't really reflect reality. Lindbergh had periods when he was off his game and performing much worse than Froese, but when healthy and in form I think he was more or less always the better goalie.
 
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The Lindbergh / Froese thing is interesting. I have often thought that Ron Hextall's rookie season, for example, was quite overrated (at the time) in the context of how good the Flyers were defensively and in particular when looking at Froese's numbers the year before Hextall arrived.

But to really compare two goalies on the same team in that era, we'd probably have to a deep-dive into "strength of competition". If Froese was regularly facing the Leafs and Devils and Lindbergh was regularly facing the Islanders, Capitals, Bruins, Canadiens, etc., then we might fairly conclude that the equal numbers actually make Lindbergh look much better.
 
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Growing up walking distance from the Spectrum, I watched Lindbergh close-up in person many, many times. What made him among the best in the world were:

1. His reflexes were insane. He was literally like a cat and was as acrobatic as anyone I've ever seen.

2. His personality. Pelle was a big kid who was beloved by everyone and never had a bad day. He was always smiling and his enthusiasm was contagious.

3. His mind. Pelle thought the game as well as anyone and was mentored by the great Bernie Parent. He was a true student of the game and was obsessed with mastering the craft.
 

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