Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[VT]

I looked at stats.

Patrik is the 30th in goals (24), the 22nd in EVG (20), with everyone ahead of him having more games and better partners. Ford example Draisaitl has 21 EVG, DeBrincat 22 EVG, McDavid 25 EVG or Ovechkin 26 EVG. Yes, Matthews has 32 EVG but his partner is Marner. Or Forsberg has 27 EVG in 48 games but his partners are Granlund and Duchene.

Btw, Bjorkie has 16 EVG, which is also a very nice number. Again, he doesn't have partners like the most players over him.

What is important we still have reserves.

 

[majormajor]

I looked at stats.

Patrik is the 30th in goals (24), the 22nd in EVG (20), with everyone ahead of him having more games and better partners. Ford example Draisaitl has 21 EVG, DeBrincat 22 EVG, McDavid 25 EVG or Ovechkin 26 EVG. Yes, Matthews has 32 EVG but his partner is Marner. Or Forsberg has 27 EVG in 48 games but his partners are Granlund and Duchene.

Btw, Bjorkie has 16 EVG, which is also a very nice number. Again, he doesn't have partners like the most players over him.

What is important we still have reserves.

Our shooters play with strong playmakers and in an offensively geared system. They don't have excuses and don't need any, they're doing well.

 

[Vapaatunnus]

Whose opinion?

Here.

 

[VT]

Our shooters play with strong playmakers and in an offensively geared system. They don't have excuses and don't need any, they're doing well.

Do you think Jenner/Nyquist/Sillinger/Roslovic are strong playmakers (I compare them with partners players who are down)? Only Voracek and probably Domi are (I don't count Laine because I put him to scorers in this case). But Domi didn't play with Bjorkie/Patrik. Of course don't forget we have problems with the first pass from defense because Boqvist is often injured, Bean was too. Gavrikov's, Peeke's the first pass isn't extra. Kukan and Bayreuther aren't strong d-men. Carlsson has quite good the first pass but Lars didn't believe him. Also our defense often has problem with opponent's forchecking.
Now playmakers other players:
- Matthews - Marner
- Ovechkin - Kuznetsov
- Draisaitl - played with RNH too
- Forsberg - the great Forsberg -- Granlund -- Duchesne line
- Guentzel - Crosby
- DeBrincat - often played with Kane
- Connor - although Dubois isn't a playmaker, he does very much work, wins battles and similar, so that partners could have chances to score
Etc.
Yes, Lars's system helps offense but if all it is better our offense would be more better. Simply it shows how good wingers we have.

 

[Halberdier]

Our shooters play with strong playmakers and in an offensively geared system. They don't have excuses and don't need any, they're doing well.

They are doing well, but it's not an excuse to state the fact that they in fact are *NOT* playing with strong playmakers, the exception being early season when Laine was playing with Voracek, who is a strong playmaker like Laine himself also is.

In addition to Voracek and Laine himself, there aren't "strong playmakers" on the team. Domi might be that occasionally and for example Nyqvist is not bad and provides definitely support on that sector. I have high hopes that Sillinger will be strong-ish playmaker in the future.

 

[VT]

They are doing well, but it's not an excuse to state the fact that they in fact are *NOT* playing with strong playmakers, the exception being early season when Laine was playing with Voracek, who is a strong playmaker like Laine himself also is.

In addition to Voracek and Laine himself, there aren't "strong playmakers" on the team. Domi might be that occasionally and for example Nyqvist is not bad and provides definitely support on that sector. I have high hopes that Sillinger will be strong-ish playmaker in the future.

I think Domi is a very good playmaker.

 

[Halberdier]

I think Domi is a very good playmaker.

Agreed, but he seems to be pretty unpredictable on that. Like 1 game on, 1 game off type.

 

[majormajor]

They are doing well, but it's not an excuse to state the fact that they in fact are *NOT* playing with strong playmakers, the exception being early season when Laine was playing with Voracek, who is a strong playmaker like Laine himself also is.

In addition to Voracek and Laine himself, there aren't "strong playmakers" on the team. Domi might be that occasionally and for example Nyqvist is not bad and provides definitely support on that sector. I have high hopes that Sillinger will be strong-ish playmaker in the future.

They don't have a Marner, Crosby, Kane level super-elite playmaker, but Voracek and Domi are in that next tier down. Domi hasn't been any streakier than you'd expect for his role and ice time. His primary assist rate is actually near the top of the league. Our scorers are in a good situation to score, playing for a team with an offensive lean to it. There might be 20 teams that they'd score less with.

 

[VT]

They don't have a Marner, Crosby, Kane level super-elite playmaker, but Voracek and Domi are in that next tier down. Domi hasn't been any streakier than you'd expect for his role and ice time. His primary assist rate is actually near the top of the league. Our scorers are in a good situation to score, playing for a team with an offensive lean to it. There might be 20 teams that they'd score less with.

Domi didn't play with them. Laine played most game with Nyquist. Without Patrik in the roster Bjork didn't play with them. Also Boone and Silly couldn't join Jakub and Bjorkie/Patrik ideal. Only if Roslo began to play between Bjorkie and Jakub, the play was better.
Next. Except DeBrincat -- Kane, the couples are center - wingers, or the whole lines:
Matthews (c) - Marner (w)
Draisaitl (c) - RNH/Hyman/Puljujarvi/Kane (he played dome games with him)
Rust (w) - Crosby (c) - Guentzel (w)
Ovechkin (w) - Kuznetzov (c)
Forsberg (w) - Granlund (c) - Duchesne (w)
Robertson (w) - Hintz (c) - Pavelski (w)
Connor (w) - Dubois (c)
Larkin (c) - Raymond (w)
Gaudreau (w) - Lindholm (c) - M. Tkachuk (w)
etc.
Of course compare the first pass their teams and our (because of injuries).
So again, we have excelent wingers but don't know it. Of course Lars has done many for our offense.

 

[majormajor]

Domi didn't play with them. Laine played most game with Nyquist. Without Patrik in the roster Bjork didn't play with them. Also Boone and Silly couldn't join Jakub and Bjorkie/Patrik ideal. Only if Roslo began to play between Bjorkie and Jakub, the play was better.
Next. Except DeBrincat -- Kane, the couples are center - wingers, or the whole lines:
Matthews (c) - Marner (w)
Draisaitl (c) - RNH/Hyman/Puljujarvi/Kane (he played dome games with him)
Rust (w) - Crosby (c) - Guentzel (w)
Ovechkin (w) - Kuznetzov (c)
Forsberg (w) - Granlund (c) - Duchesne (w)
Robertson (w) - Hintz (c) - Pavelski (w)
Connor (w) - Dubois (c)
Larkin (c) - Raymond (w)
Gaudreau (w) - Lindholm (c) - M. Tkachuk (w)
etc.
Of course compare the first pass their teams and our (because of injuries).
So again, we have excelent wingers but don't know it. Of course Lars has done many for our offense.

There are better playmakers but I don't see that many of them. Playing with Granlund, Hintz, Dubois, Raymond, etc... is nice but it doesn't get you more goals than playing with Voracek, at most the same. Actually every one of those teams has scored fewer goals than the Jackets.

 

[VT]

There are better playmakers but I don't see that many of them. Playing with Granlund, Hintz, Dubois, Raymond, etc... is nice but it doesn't get you more goals than playing with Voracek, at most the same. Actually every one of those teams has scored fewer goals than the Jackets.

If the line has very good chemistry and it's support d-men, it's more than two players.
Dubois isn't a playmaker that's right and I wrote it. But he's smarter than Boone, strong and can play very good around the boards, in the front of the net. Thanks to him wingers have more free places and the puck.PLD is enough underrated.
Larkin is a center, if he is a winger and he would play with Raymond (plus Fabbri/Bertuzzi/Namestníkov who is excelent in defense) it would be something other.

 

[Columbus Jack]

Most of this team's forwards are having career years or at least very good years. We didnt see this theme spewed last year when the team was sinking. This team's players are playing very well, definitely above average. I'm willing to bet that "the normal" is somewhere between this year and last year.

There's absolutely no way this team has "strong playmakers", they have one strong playmaker in Voracek and an elite talent in Laine that can create offense for himself and others. Nyquist is at the end of his career who is playing well. Domi is extremely inconsistent to be considered a "strong playmaker" in my book. Sure, he's good when he's going, he's also invisible for 10 games and then comes alive. Strong in my opinion means he brings it more often than that and changes the game more often than not.

Larsen should be commended, he's making a young team that has little experience and elite talent, watchable and somewhat competitive. But my god that doesn't mean this team has "strong playmakers".

This team has a lot of young talent playing above average and that's okay but let's not get ahead ourselves, this team has a long way to go along with a lot more development needed.

 

[NotCommitted]

The team is playing offense happy game and many guys are performing at a level where any criticism or downplaying their talent is hardly warranted. At the same time, Laine is leading the team in goals and tied for 1st in both total points and even strength points (as tracked by NHL.com, so includes one team playing without a goalie, 4v4 etc I think) despite playing 16-19 games less than others. P/GP 1.07 vs 0.77 of 2nd best (Bjorkstrand).

Without taking anything away from others, that's a notable gap. But looking at the roster, you would hope for a gap since Laine has clearly the most offensive potential. It just shows he has been able get his game back on track after horrible last season and has created offense on his own without having to rely on an elite playmaker to create his chances for him. That's obviously great and what you hope to see. I would still give quite a bit of credit to Jenner, who really stepped up to the 1C role and has made things easier for Laine with all the things he does. I'm sure Laine has benefitted from training with Barkov, but I would still assume being around Voracek has also really helped him take his playmaking to next level. His passing was always top notch, but there's so much more than well executed passes that go into playmaking. If you watch guys like Voracek, there's so much going on, like where they skate with the puck, how they control the rhythm with speed changes, when they decide to circle back a bit etc. and those are the kind of things that are starting to show up more in Laine's game.

On the defensive side he has also improved by quite a bit, someone just looking at xGF% or xGA might not see it, since those metrics are pretty much the same as last season, but just watching him play, it seems pretty obvious to me at least how much more naturally defensive plays come to him and he breaks up plays regularly, backchecks well a lot of the time and his breakouts are mostly really good. I haven't looked at stats, but it would seem to be they go through him a lot. More importantly the horribly bad metrics last year came in a system and with a personal focus that seemed to kill his offense in the process, but now it seems well integrated.

He still has bad games but the lows don't seem nearly as low to me anymore, all in all I'd say he's had a great season this far all things considered, I just wish he had been able to play the full schelude. It looks like they could have truly challenged for a playoff spot if they had a full season of Laine + just a bit more consistency from guys like Bjorkstrand. Sadly the goalie injuries might have messed up things anyway. The D and center positions need some help though, but what's the timeline for that?

Btw. Domi I find hard to judge, sure he's been inconsistent, but he's also had so little TOI that it's hard to say if his excellent per 60 numbers would have translated to playing higher up in the line up. Lately he's been very good and at least on his day he is a very good playmaker.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Now on pace for 50g on a full season.

 

[Marioesque]

I don't care what his pay looks like, could not be less interested. The lower the better from team POV but still an absolute must sign. Jarmo could not convince bread or Bob, but Laine is worth more and he knows it. It's gonna happen.

Laine is already at 23 a legit point per game + player with who he has around him. You put another elite player in that line and he could get to 1.3+ per game, McDavid numbers. With much higher emphasis on goals.

He is far more important to keep than Breadman or Bob were. A legit piece to build around. Laine wins games, the more you feed it, the more he wins

 

[Finner]

9M/8years anytime. Top 10player in the league

 

[majormajor]

I don't care what his pay looks like, could not be less interested. The lower the better from team POV but still an absolute must sign. Jarmo could not convince bread or Bob, but Laine is worth more and he knows it. It's gonna happen.

Laine is already at 23 a legit point per game + player with who he has around him. You put another elite player in that line and he could get to 1.3+ per game, McDavid numbers. With much higher emphasis on goals.

He is far more important to keep than Breadman or Bob were. A legit piece to build around. Laine wins games, the more you feed it, the more he wins

One can hope. We'll see about his level after a bit more time has past. If you just assessed McDavid by his best 25 games then he is better than Gretzky.

I'm also not sure if we share the same assessment of what Bob and Bread did as Jackets.

In two years as a Jacket Panarin carried his line to a 60% GF (a 3-2 score). 139GF to 94GA in 160 games. Just looking at this year, Laine is 34 GF to 33 GA in 43 games, basically even. Relative to their teams, Laine has a GF% 6.5 percentage points higher than the team without him. Panarin was 10.9 percentage points better than the team without him over the span of two years*. That's a different level of awesome.

* Those numbers are the GF% Rel, I'm not 100% sure if my interpretation is correct but it's at least very close to literally true. Everything is from naturalstattrick.

 

[Xoggz22]

One can hope. We'll see about his level after a bit more time has past. If you just assessed McDavid by his best 25 games then he is better than Gretzky.

I'm also not sure if we share the same assessment of what Bob and Bread did as Jackets.

In two years as a Jacket Panarin carried his line to a 60% GF (a 3-2 score). 139GF to 94GA in 160 games. Just looking at this year, Laine is 34 GF to 33 GA in 43 games, basically even. Relative to their teams, Laine has a GF% 6.5 percentage points higher than the team without him. Panarin was 10.9 percentage points better than the team without him over the span of two years*. That's a different level of awesome.

* Those numbers are the GF% Rel, I'm not 100% sure if my interpretation is correct but it's at least very close to literally true. Everything is from naturalstattrick.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I find it hard to lay comparisons based on statistics at this point. The team, in general, was better during the Panarin/Bobrovsky days. Team as a whole. Their defensive play/style was different and clearly impacts their underlying statistics. However, just watching them play, both Laine and Panarin are easy to see as elite players. Small sample in Columbus but Laine has been an elite goal scorer in the past. He's now showing an improved overall game. Panarin was thought to be offense only when he first arrived in Cbus but also showed he can play within a system (to a degree) and was such a playmaker and made everyone around him better. Currently, I probably still give the edge to Panarin as his sample size is larger in Cbus, however, I have been consistent with my desire for Laine to be here long term and I think now he showing why to many others. He is another elite player at 23 that appears to still be on the way up.... along with this team.

And I also don't see any connection with Laine, Bob or Panarin (nothing to do with your post but rather the prior posts) and their desire to stay or Jarmo's ability to keep them. It's been documented enough that Bob wanted $10MM AAV or more and Jarmo wasn't going there and Bread was destined for NYR the day he was traded from Chicago. Both have been supported by Rimmer, and I, for one, believe him. Laine is a completely different story from what we're currently hearing. Anything <$10MM AAV would be outstanding.

 

[Murky]

One can hope. We'll see about his level after a bit more time has past. If you just assessed McDavid by his best 25 games then he is better than Gretzky.

I'm also not sure if we share the same assessment of what Bob and Bread did as Jackets.

In two years as a Jacket Panarin carried his line to a 60% GF (a 3-2 score). 139GF to 94GA in 160 games. Just looking at this year, Laine is 34 GF to 33 GA in 43 games, basically even. Relative to their teams, Laine has a GF% 6.5 percentage points higher than the team without him. Panarin was 10.9 percentage points better than the team without him over the span of two years*. That's a different level of awesome.

* Those numbers are the GF% Rel, I'm not 100% sure if my interpretation is correct but it's at least very close to literally true. Everything is from naturalstattrick.

It is generally accepted that good shooters and players that can't finish break all corsi-based stats. So called and much debated clutch players would break them even more if you believe such a thing exists. I believe Laine is both but only when he is on. That being said I agree with you that Panarin is in a different tier than Laine. Hopefully Laine can reach that level at some point. But Panarin is the real deal.

 

[EDM]

Laine has made it clear that he likes Columbus and wants to stay here.Jarmo would have to get tied down in some act of utter incompetence to blow this situation.

 

[Easternbull]

Patrik still sometimes looks like a lost 10m$ cone when the other team is cycling the puck.

But his backchecking and sticklifts are leading to more takeaways.

Mark Messier commented after Laines brakeaway goal against the panthers that his skating looks just as efortless like Lemiux and that that he does not get enough credit for how fast he can move.

Look at that goal against the blues, that is the fastest all star skater he is pulling away from.

His stop start acceleration is not the greatest, but when he gets a short rolling start/loop, Patrik can rely fly for a big man.

 

[majormajor]

I'm not disagreeing with you but I find it hard to lay comparisons based on statistics at this point. The team, in general, was better during the Panarin/Bobrovsky days. Team as a whole. Their defensive play/style was different and clearly impacts their underlying statistics.

That the team was better was why I showed the relative goals results (GF%Rel). The gap between Panarin's results (superstar) and his team results (good) was much bigger than the gap between Laine's results (even) and his team results (bad).

It is generally accepted that good shooters and players that can't finish break all corsi-based stats. So called and much debated clutch players would break them even more if you believe such a thing exists. I believe Laine is both but only when he is on. That being said I agree with you that Panarin is in a different tier than Laine. Hopefully Laine can reach that level at some point. But Panarin is the real deal.

I didn't mention any corsi stats. Those are the goals results, how many the Jackets score and how many the opponents score.

 

[Byrral]

In the past couple months Laine has taken his game from a frustrating player not worth keeping around to an important asset that still has room to improve. After seeing some of these deals the past couple of days whether he signs here long term or not his value has got to be pretty high right now. He seems to want to play here and similar to when Werenski signed that is a great thing for the team/city. But I also think Zach was slightly over paid and I'm concerned about the number it's going to take to keep Laine here. I have a range that I'd like to see him sign at but I'm no cap expert so I have no idea what that number should be and I will rely on the experts. But this is an important summer for Jarmo and Laine to get this done and at a number that protects both sides. Otherwise Jarmo is going to get a huge haul for him if he has to move him.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Patrik Laine would be ‘pretty shocked’ if Blue Jackets move him in deadline deal​

Patrik Laine has restored his reputation as an elite NHL forward this season and has only one year of restricted free agency left.

Those two factors have led to speculation that he might be used as a major trade asset by the Blue Jackets at some point. Laine told The Dispatch last week that he’s not worried about it, but added that he would be surprised if it happened in a deadline deal.

“I think I’m past that point of worrying,” said the 23-year old forward, who leads the Jackets with 25 goals and is tied for the team lead with 48 points. “I think I’ve done everything I could in this situation, and if that kind of thing happens, then it just happens and I’ve got to move on. But I’m not gonna lie, I’d be pretty shocked at this point.”

Laine also said he’s open to signing a contract extension that keeps him in Columbus beyond next season. The sides have yet to begin serious discussions, but are expected to ramp up talks in the offseason — another indicator that Laine will probably not be traded before the deadline.

“I love it here and I’d love to play here in the future,” Laine said. “I think it’s just up to (the front office). Whenever they want to talk, we’ll listen and kind of go from there. We’ve still got lots of time with the deadline and everything going around, but I’m sure it’ll be a topic at some point.”

Blue Jackets' Korpisalo awaits trade deadline outcome: 'It would be sad to leave'

Korpisalo would be 'sad' to leave Blue Jackets in deadline deal. Additional notes: Laine open to extension, Nyquist hopes to stay put

www.dispatch.com

 

[karhukissa]

Laine has made it clear that he likes Columbus and wants to stay here.Jarmo would have to get tied down in some act of utter incompetence to blow this situation.

Even though he's young, he's like a mature family man. Heck he's a young millionaire and has been with same girl since early teens or something. So he probably doesn't care about the big lights in NYC or sunny Florida, he likes Columbus and enjoys his time there.

Also fans love him and he seems to really like his teammates. And the most important part imo: Larsen. He let's Patrik play exactly with his strenghts, just shoot the puck and enjoy. I think the last time when i saw him playing like that, was with Tappara in FEL.

And it's very important for him mentally, that he's one of the best forwards in the league when he just plays his own game. Based on his interviews, he's always been extremely critical towards himself and too harsh also, i feel like he just took too much pressure to prove himself that he can really be one of the top forwards. He even said when he was like 16 that his goal is to be the best forward in the NHL. Not one of the best, the absolute best.