Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[BB88]

A big part of that is possession. Laine doesn't spend much time in the offensive zone. A lot of one-and-done rushes and failed entries. Gaudreau will help a lot with that.

In Winnipeg he also refused to shoot a lot. Lot of the time he liked to look for a passing lane 1st.

He’s never really been a volume shooter, would love to see him change that mindset, especially with Gaudreau/Johnson/Voracek in the building

 

[LJ7]

In Winnipeg he also refused to shoot a lot. Lot of the time he liked to look for a passing lane 1st.

He’s never really been a volume shooter, would love to see him change that mindset, especially with Gaudreau/Johnson/Voracek in the building

Ideally he shoots an absolute ton this year. In my perfect world he gets 400 SOG off this season. I want it to look ridiculous/comical because to me the one thing that would unlock his potential is volume shooting.

 

[Marioesque]

I think shooting and puckhandling mechanics might be a huge factor in it too. He doesn't collect pucks and get the shot off from difficult positions as quickly as Matthews. That naturally leads to fewer shot attempts. I'm glad to hear that he's in better shape than he's ever been but I don't expect him to try to score goals like the one by Matthews in the video below, because his lack of agility, style of play and stick aren't perfectly designed for this type of quick play:

Laine is never going to be a super useful "around the net" player. He has the best shot in the game, his strength is elsewhere. For close range his stick isn't as useful as a shorter one. Matthews plays in those areas because that's the range he scores best from, that's where his strengths are best used. He is strong on the boards and lethal up close. Laine is looking to shoot from range because he can do it better from further away than others.

 

[Marioesque]

In Winnipeg he also refused to shoot a lot. Lot of the time he liked to look for a passing lane 1st.

He’s never really been a volume shooter, would love to see him change that mindset, especially with Gaudreau/Johnson/Voracek in the building

Agreed. I think it's a mixture of his tendency to wait for a good chance and opponents really focusing on covering his shooting lanes because they can't afford to let him get clean looks.

That's why I think this season he will be able to take more shots, the opponent just cannot focus on having one guy between him and net at all times anymore. Gaudreau will bring that time and space and passes.

 

[tunnelvision]

Laine is never going to be a super useful "around the net" player. He has the best shot in the game, his strength is elsewhere. For close range his stick isn't as useful as a shorter one. Matthews plays in those areas because that's the range he scores best from, that's where his strengths are best used. He is strong on the boards and lethal up close.

This seems only to support my theory. Understanding that he isn't strong around the net leads to preferring to stay on the perimeter which then leads to less scoring opportunities which eventually will result in fewer shot attempts?

Laine is looking to shoot from range because he can do it better from further away than others.

Is it equally true to say that he likes to shoot from far out because he knows isn't better than others near the net? Would it be more accurate to say he has the best shot in the game for certain type of shooting?

 

[Marioesque]

This seems only to support my theory. Understanding that he isn't strong around the net leads to preferring to stay on the perimeter which then leads to less scoring opportunities which eventually will result in fewer shot attempts?


Is it equally true to say that he likes to shoot from far out because he knows isn't better than others near the net? Would it be more accurate to say he has the best shot in the game for certain type of shooting?

Not necessarily, the players in a line dictate where they get shot attempts from. Conventional wisdom is closer the better, but with Laine's shot it's best for the team that he isn't driving the net and they look for him further out. It's easier to get chances from further out, because conventionally they are less defended areas, people don'tgenerally score from there with any condistency like Laine does. So they can choose to play to the net or to the perimeter. In Matthews's case it's best to make plays closer to the net than for Laine.

And yes that's absolutely fair, he knows he won't do as well in the crowd or in the boards as some different types of players do. He knows his strengths are further out on the perimeter.

Yes it's more accurate to say some shots. His wrist and slapshots are more accurate and have more velocity, especially the combination of both, than the competition. His backhand is mediocre at best so he clearly loses that type of shot.

 

[haulinbass]

Always was a big Laine and Gaudreau fan. Although Laine certainly has some big short comings it's hard not to love his shot and the talent he can display at times.

I use to go to Columbus games when I lived in Ohio. I will admit I haven't followed the team much in the last 2 or 3 seasons. Hard to not be drawn in by the team right now though.

Curious who you guys think will center Laine and Johnny. I almost think it has to be Jenner. Laine and Johnny aren't going to win many O-Zone puck battles and are going to need someone to dig for the pucks. Not quite sure how effective Roslovic and Sillinger are in that department. Just don't know enough about their game at this stage. It seems more of the case adding the right ingredient with these two rather than adding the most talent. Between the two the talent is already there.

Kent Johnson looked great vs Detroit in TC tournament. Obviously as interesting as the skill level would be with those three, there would be to many short comings at this point as a line.

Just really curious how you guys think things are going to shake out and what the teams going to look like.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Watched a bit of the game last night... He skates pretty damn fast now doesn't he? Like you can clearly see that he's been working on it.

 

[Ippenator]

Watched a bit of the game last night... He skates pretty damn fast now doesn't he? Like you can clearly see that he's been working on it.

He’s been working on it every year since he was in the NHL. I said it already years ago, that we should see the best results only when he will be around 23-25 years old. That’s how it goes with big boys who aren’t naturally gifted with a lot of fast twitch muscle cells in their legs. They need to do years of muscle training to get over the disadvantage that they have for their skating. Finally the hard training seems to give some results.

It also seems that he is now clearly leaner than he was usually at the beginning of seasons. That should help by some means as well. But the work wasn’t done just recently, but rather through several years of hard muscle training with his legs. Going quite much the Barkov path, but just about one year behind with the clearly better skating results, as Barkov showed very clear improvement only around his 23-24 year old season.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

He’s been working on it every year since he was in the NHL. I said it already years ago, that we should see the best results only when he will be around 23-25 years old. That’s how it goes with big boys who aren’t naturally gifted with a lot of fast twitch muscle cells in their legs. They need to do years of muscle training to get over the disadvantage that they have for their skating. Finally the hard training seems to give some results.

It also seems that he is now clearly leaner than he was usually at the beginning of seasons. That should help by some means as well. But the work wasn’t done just recently, but rather through several years of hard muscle training with his legs. Going quite much the Barkov path, but just about one year behind with the clearly better skating results, as Barkov showed very clear improvement only around his 23-24 year old season.

I've never thought of him as a bad skater and obviously he's worked on it every year, but this year I remember reading that he started ice training in July, which is a lot earlier than he usually does. So yes, extra effort seems to have been put in.

 

[Ippenator]

I've never thought of him as a bad skater and obviously he's worked on it every year, but this year I remember reading that he started ice training in July, which is a lot earlier than he usually does. So yes, extra effort seems to have been put in.

He started his ice training already the last four years in July. A couple of times in a week on the ice then. So no real change in that really. But the most intensive ice training he has always started only in August, when he goes to practice with Tappara’s Liiga group. And the same has applied for Barkov as well. Of course Laine and Barkov have been training together for the whole summer for the last three off seasons as well.

 

[Halberdier]

I've never thought of him as a bad skater and obviously he's worked on it every year, but this year I remember reading that he started ice training in July, which is a lot earlier than he usually does. So yes, extra effort seems to have been put in.

I think the biggest difference maker is that the "power forward" nonsense is now abandoned and Laine is again much lighter, like he was on his rocket rookie season when he scored 5-on-5 at will even with very skinny body & legs. For example 17-18 season didn't start all too well since Laine had been bulking a lot during the summer, probably doing a lot of stuff with heavy weights etc.

And just like @Ippenator said, guys with his enourmous size needs time to fill their bodies. His former team mate Wheeler (also 6'5") being prime example of that (drafted -04, being borderline star player only 7-8 years later). Laine is now beginning his draft+6 season.

Because of his sheer skill and tools, he has been able to contribute high level from the beginning, but that doesn't mean he was physically ready. It's really exciting to see in coming season how "lean Laine" does with soapy Johnny and who ever skates between them.

 

[BB88]

He’s been working on it every year since he was in the NHL. I said it already years ago, that we should see the best results only when he will be around 23-25 years old. That’s how it goes with big boys who aren’t naturally gifted with a lot of fast twitch muscle cells in their legs. They need to do years of muscle training to get over the disadvantage that they have for their skating. Finally the hard training seems to give some results.

It also seems that he is now clearly leaner than he was usually at the beginning of seasons. That should help by some means as well. But the work wasn’t done just recently, but rather through several years of hard muscle training with his legs. Going quite much the Barkov path, but just about one year behind with the clearly better skating results, as Barkov showed very clear improvement only around his 23-24 year old season.

The difference made in his game is that he started training with Barkov.

Who’s the best mentor to have in Finland

 

[Ippenator]

The difference made in his game is that he started training with Barkov.

Who’s the best mentor to have in Finland

Barkov is a good person to train with for sure, but still the difference for Laine has been made by years of training. I know that you are one of those who believe that you develop skating just by skating on the ice, but you also seem to not really understand the basics about skating and what type of issues different kind of players can have with skating.

Laine’s issues have been always his lack of explosiveness and also getting way too easily fatigued during a shift. He is one of those big guys that have a relatively small amount of fast twitch muscle cells in his legs, which means that it’s possible to develop the engine (legs) only gradually with hard training for the leg muscles. It’s a case of years of training for any players who has the similar situation. It was the same for Barkov himself, as he started to get the better skating results only around his 23-24 year old season. Same happened to the smaller Granlund, who also had clearly the similar kind of problem of lacking the fast twitch muscle cells in his legs. Years of hard training helped him as well.

None of them are and will ever be truly elite skaters, but they can be good skaters, which Barkov and Granlund already are, and Laine might be getting there. But no, Barkov for sure isn’t an elite skater, although I know that you have been trying to promote something like that over here. He is good or even very good for his size, but he doesn’t have the talent to be a truly elite skater. You can’t become a truly elite skater unless you have the natural gift for it. Training takes you of course a long way, but there are also limits to what you can do with training if the truly natural gift isn’t there.

 

[BB88]

Barkov is a good person to train with for sure, but still the difference for Laine has been made by years of training. I know that you are one of those who believe that you develop skating just by skating on the ice, but you also seem to not really understand the basics about skating and what type of issues different kind of players can have with skating.

Laine’s issues have been always his lack of explosiveness and also getting way too easily fatigued during a shift. He is one of those big guys that have a relatively small amount of fast twitch muscle cells in his legs, which means that it’s possible to develop the engine (legs) only gradually with hard training with the leg muscles. It’s a case of years of training for any players who has the similar situation. It was the same for Barkov himself, as he started to get the better skating results only around his 23-24 year old season. Same happened to the smaller Granlund, who also had clearly the similar kind of problem of lacking the fast twitch muscle cells in his legs. Years of hard training helped him as well.

None of them are and will ever be truly elite skaters, but they can be good skaters, which Barkov and Granlund already are, and Laine might be getting there. But no, Barkov for sure isn’t an elite skater, although I know that you have been trying to promote something like that over here. He is good or even very good for his size, but he doesn’t have the talent to be a truly elite skater. You can’t become a truly elite skater unless you have the natural gift for it. Training takes you of course a long way, but there are also limits to what you can do with training if the truly natural gift isn’t there.

For 6’3 guy Barkov is elite.
His strenght, technique, acceleration& speed is top tier for that size.
His skating is also very efficiant.

Laine was drafted 6 years ago. If you have to wait 6 years to see any real development that training model is straight up bs.

Go look at the top guys in this league and places they train. Absolutely no one approached the offseason the same as Rautala. Go also listen to urheilucasts Lehkonens rant on Rautala style offseason training.

Yet the Laine/Rautala model is the best approach while it has produced easily the worst results….
Just makes it sound like more you still don’t want to admit their offseason training has been far from perfect/ideal

 

[Ippenator]

For 6’3 guy Barkov is elite.
His strenght, technique, acceleration& speed is top tier for that size.
His skating is also very efficiant.

Laine was drafted 6 years ago. If you have to wait 6 years to see any real development that training model is straight up bs.

Go look at the top guys in this league and places they train. Absolutely no one approached the offseason the same as Rautala. Go also listen to urheilucasts Lehkonens rant on Rautala style offseason training.

Yet the Laine/Rautala model is the best approach while it has produced easily the worst results….
Just makes it sound like more you still don’t want to admit their offseason training has been far from perfect/ideal

No way Barkov is an elite skater. Not for his size or otherwise. To call him an elite skater is pure fanboyism. And I never said that Rautala is necessarily the most ideal training for Laine, but to claim that they were doing something horribly wrong is pure ignorance. You really think that you are a better expert in training than Laine and his support group, Rautala and his team and then finally the Jets and their training co-ordinators? If you really believe in that, then I have to tell you that you are pretty much having a God complex or something equavalent to that. And finally - Lehkonen himself was far from being a great coach, so I take usually his raging comments as more like entertainment than some great wisdom.

 

[BB88]

No way Barkov is an elite skater. Not for his size or otherwise. To call him an elite skater is pure fanboyism. And I never said that Rautala is necessarily the most ideal training for Laine, but to claim that they were doing something horribly wrong is pure ignorance. You really think that you are a better expert in training than Laine and his support group, Rautala and his team and then finally the Jets and their training co-ordinators? If you really believe in that, then I have to tell you that you are pretty much having a God complex or something equavalent to that. And finally - Lehkonen himself was far from being a great coach, so I take usually his raging comments as more like entertainment than some great wisdom.

I mean a year ago people were thinking is Laine worth his qualifier.
The comps he was compared to are so far ahead of him it’s not funny.

So yep great job guys.

& I have 15 years of experience from gym, competing, coaching, physioteraphy so I know something about human body. I’ve basically studied the human body one way or another the last 15 years.
& with that my mind is open towards different things, I’m not just stuck on one thing like Rautala and his approach to coaching.

I’ve listened on top of it enough pros talk about training and how it should be done, I’ve compared to their training to other real best players in the game and how their development has been far superior to Laines.

Your excuses towards Laines lack of development have been heard so many times and they don’t hold any weight.

If you have to wait 6 years to see results it’s bs training.
Just your natural human growth from 18-24 gives you some improvement.

All that training lead to people questioning is Laine worth his qualifier and his comps being far superior players vs him.

Once again I’m tired of the excuses, only heard them the last 6 years.

This is results business and results have been seen.
Nobody can show up to camp in garbage (hockey) shape and just tell the coach& Gm give me 7 years and I’ll be the player you wanted to draft


The best thing Laine has done has been changing his training to model Barkovs.
Who is an elite skater for player 6’3. Just watch him play

 

[Ippenator]

I mean a year ago people were thinking is Laine worth his qualifier.
The comps he was compared to are so far ahead of him it’s not funny.

So yep great job guys.

& I have 15 years of experience from gym, competing, coaching, physioteraphy so I know something about human body. I’ve basically studied the human body one way or another the last 15 years.
& with that my mind is open towards different things, I’m not just stuck on one thing like Rautala and his approach to coaching.

I’ve listened on top of it enough pros talk about training and how it should be done, I’ve compared to their training to other real best players in the game and how their development has been far superior to Laines.

Your excuses towards Laines lack of development have been heard so many times and they don’t hold any weight.

If you have to wait 6 years to see results it’s bs training.
Just your natural human growth from 18-24 gives you some improvement.

All that training lead to people questioning is Laine worth his qualifier and his comps being far superior players vs him.

Once again I’m tired of the excuses, only heard them the last 6 years.

This is results business and results have been seen.
Nobody can show up to camp in garbage (hockey) shape and just tell the coach& Gm give me 7 years and I’ll be the player you wanted to draft


The best thing Laine has done has been changing his training to model Barkovs.
Who is an elite skater for player 6’3. Just watch him play

Sorry, but if you really knew something as an expert about the human body as you claim, then you wouldn’t write so much rubbish about it. So sorry to say but I honestly don’t believe in you being any kind of expert in the subject. In fact your comments on the subject show that you are far from it. Sure, you can claim here whatever anonymously, but what you write really exposes you. You seem to have as well an obsession on the subject, so probably discussing more about it with you isn’t really a good thing.

 

[DougKnowsBest]

I have to say. Out of all the years I’ve posted and read things on this website. No non stickied player thread has felt as “global big time” as this thread.


Porty had a line about laine looking like a shark circling the zone. It really grabbed my imagination as to what laine could accomplish this season considering the shape he is in and the attitude he currently has

So on the eve of this campaign. To my friends from Columbus to Finland. Kippis

 

[BB88]

Sorry, but if you really knew something as an expert about the human body as you claim, then you wouldn’t write so much rubbish about it. So sorry to say but I honestly don’t believe in you being any kind of expert in the subject. In fact your comments on the subject show that you are far from it. Sure, you can claim here whatever anonymously, but what you write really exposes you. You seem to have as well an obsession on the subject, so probably discussing more about it with you isn’t really a good thing.

Obsession?
I’m just tired of your excuses with Rautala.
It’s been the same for 6 years. ”Just give 6 years and you’ll see something”, ”just have to give more time to see results”.

Laine was supposed to be the best Finnish player in the league, better or equal to Matthews, the next Ovy.

You’ve been the self claimed ”expert” on this Laine and Rautala training method.

As you love to question my knowledge of human physique maybe you can go tell Mr Lehkonen how he knows absolutely nothing, as he likes to rant against this type of offseason training.
Maybe you can also go to McDavid and the company and tell how little they know and change their offseason training as whatever they are doing is clearly not working……

After all you know the best, not Lehkonen, not McDavid, not Barkov, you.

I’m not sure if you ever stop to think before you comment on this subject.
It’s fun that you want to try to call me out and maybe knowing something yet you know more than all those guys.


I’ll say this once more, if you have to wait 6 years and change coaching to see results that training model is bs.
This is a results business and the results were garbage, as they were with Kakko also.

The best thing for us fans and Columbus is that Laine started training with Barkov and we can actually expect to see some real results& in under 6 years.

I expect the same to continue know, the rest of the World knows nothing compared to you or Rautala, even if all the results scream otherwise

 

[VT]

I'm more interested in why the coaches didn't change Laine's training, didn't recommend a physical therapist, why hasn't he been training with him until the last three seasons? After all, Patrik is not a specialist, so he had to rely on his coaches. Hockey isn't speed skating so muscle cells make that much of an impact. That's why, as it turned out, all it took was a change in training plus working with a physiotherapist and his play has improved.

 

[thebus88]

Laine needs to keep his feet moving in all zones much more than he has in the past and he needs to ramp up his intensity another level and bring it consistently.

The only person to blame for Laine’s lack of shots is himself. Most of you try to put the blame for the lack of his success on his teammates/line mates, when it’s simply that he doesn’t put in enough hard work/ effort to get open more or get more shots off.

It’s that simple.

If he doesn’t do that, NOTHING else matters, he’s not hitting 50-60 goals and the CBJ team isn’t going to win many games.

 

[BB88]

I'm more interested in why the coaches didn't change Laine's training, didn't recommend a physical therapist, why hasn't he been training with him until the last three seasons? After all, Patrik is not a specialist, so he had to rely on his coaches. Hockey isn't speed skating so muscle cells make that much of an impact. That's why, as it turned out, all it took was a change in training plus working with a physiotherapist and his play has improved.

With Barkov he has been using a physiotherapist in Tampere focusing on mobility.

No one has sais off ice training is bs or Laine should be in prime condition at 19y but if skating is what it is and you’re a hockey player you probably should spend some time on the ice.
Laine is a hockey player not a damm runner so I fail to see how offseasons with 100% focus on off ice stuff is for the best.
Especially when everyone and everything goes against that type of training

Kakko is another Rautala example who’s been skating in mud for 3 years and had to settle for prove it deal as a 2nd overall pick.


Edit.
For comparison Barkovs skating was seen as the biggest negative on his game on draft day and now he’s the best Finnish player in the league and for his size an amazing skater.
He used physiotheraphy& figure skating coach on his way to the top.

 

[Ippenator]

I'm more interested in why the coaches didn't change Laine's training, didn't recommend a physical therapist, why hasn't he been training with him until the last three seasons? After all, Patrik is not a specialist, so he had to rely on his coaches. Hockey isn't speed skating so muscle cells make that much of an impact. That's why, as it turned out, all it took was a change in training plus working with a physiotherapist and his play has improved.

Nothing was changed in a short time - except his weight. He had a physiotherapist helping him already four years ago and he had at the same time skating coach Max Kolu helping him with skating related issues. But his issues were never such that they could be fixed in just one off season, or even a couple of them. He is for sure the type that doesn’t have a too big amount of fast twitch muscle cells in his legs. You are always set with the amount of them that you have been given at birth. You can only strengthen the smaller amount that you have, but you can’t ever get more of them even how much you train. Natural skaters have a big amount of the fast twitch muscle cells, so they are capable of getting much quicker and much more substantial results with their training. Not every player can get the same results even how hard they train in some area.

When Laine changed to training with Barkov he had the following season the worst season during his whole career. So it really isn't so that you get results just like that. Right now the most meaningful things helping Laine’s skating is that he gradually with years of hard training has been able to strengthen his smaller amount of fast twitch muscle cells enough. And at the same time he has made himself clearly leaner than he has been in years. Thus, more explosiveness through the leg muscles and less weight and the result is better mobility than he has had in years. More similar to his rookie season, and hopefully even clearly better than then.

 

[Youngguns1380]

Can we all agree that Laine looks faster, quicker and more engaged in the limited preseason we have seen him. How he got here - I don’t care. Just keep playing that way and score goals 40-50 preferably.