Patrick Roy's departure from Montreal - why?

[jghockey]

Was the divorce between Roy and the Habs strictly due to Tremblay's embarrassing Roy in that one game against the Red Wings? Were there other factors involved?

 

[JMCx4]

... Were there other factors involved?

Other than his long-standing anger management issues ... no.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

No, the relationship between Montreal management and Roy was already strained long before the Detroit game. There were rumors the season before about trading Roy. Two months prior to Tremblay showing up Roy, Serge Savard did have a deal in place to ship Roy to Colorado for a package that included Owen Nolan as the centerpiece heading to Montreal. That deal got scuttled once Savard and Jacques Demers were fired 4 games into 1995-96.

 

[The Panther]

I used to cheer for Roy in Montreal, but I lost say I must some respect for him in the prima donna meltdown against Detroit in '95. You know, you're being paid millions or whatever to stop the pucks, so how about stopping the pucks? Just being a starter doesn't mean you're automatically pulled after letting some in. Suck it up and try harder!

I get that his massive ego was part of what made him great, and I can appreciate that (I am a Messier fan!). But when you start sending it up in front of the fans, you're sort of mocking the whole team.

 

[tony d]

Weren't there rumors of his being traded as early as 1992? I seem to remember that. Oh and getting Nolan back would have been good for the Canadiens and better than what the Canadiens got back in the actual deal.

 

[quoipourquoi]

It wasn’t isolated to just the one night. Mario Tremblay instituted a rule that non-injured players could not be in the clinic (which is where Patrick Roy liked to hang out before games since the beginning of his career) and began enforcing a rule that players could not drink in the hotel bar (another thing that Patrick Roy could do under Jacques Demers).

Roy continued to violate both rules, but had voiced to Mike Vernon before the game that he wasn’t happy in Montreal and was considering retiring - which Vernon protested, insisting that Roy just ask to be traded.

The Roy trade raised a more profound, '90s question about whether special players deserve special treatment, whether a star system that puts athletes' names up in neon-Deion lights should prevail over the hoary high school notion that there's no I in team.

They can argue the following point in NHL front offices and at the Harvard Business School: Did Roy's team-high $2.8 million salary and his immense marketability in Montreal make him almost as much a partner of the Canadiens' owners as an employee? Hasn't Gretzky, who put millions in the Kings' coffers, earned a say in Los Angeles's personnel matters? When New York Ranger captain Mark Messier had a falling-out with coach Roger Neilson in 1993, who was deemed to be more vital to the team?

 

[jghockey]

It wasn’t isolated to just the one night. Mario Tremblay instituted a rule that non-injured players could not be in the clinic (which is where Patrick Roy liked to hang out before games since the beginning of his career) and began enforcing a rule that players could not drink in the hotel bar (another thing that Patrick Roy could do under Jacques Demers).

Roy continued to violate both rules, but had voiced to Mike Vernon before the game that he wasn’t happy in Montreal and was considering retiring - which Vernon protested, insisting that Roy just ask to be traded.

I don't think that any player should be involved in management/ownership decisions. The player's job is to just play hockey.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Smart players can be consulted...provide another "free" perspective from the ice...plus, factoring in that a lot of guys know other guys...you don't want to bring in someone who is gonna suck the life out of the room...

Martin Brodeur became influential in the Devils decision making process around 1999 or 2000 I think...I would trust his opinion on most things...

 

[Doctor No]

Couldn't agree more - particularly with the goaltender (I'm admittedly biased) who is intensely analyzing (and not much more) for about half of the game.

As Yogi Berra probably didn't say, you can learn a lot by watching.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

There was a lot more to it.
As stated, Savard was going to trade him and there were even rumors before that that he was offered to the Nordiques.
Roy was always a bit of a hothead, and he needed someone behind the bench to soothe him/massage him when things went south.

Saying "stop the puck" is great, but this is one of the all-time greats. You don't just let your franchise player hang out there, you replace him after the 3rd goal or so and let Jablonski soak up the damage. It's likely Detroit doesn't just keep ramping it up then since Bowman might not want to impose his will on the alternate goaltender.
On top of that Pinotte is arguably worse than Pierre Dorion as a GM and should have been shilling beer instead of running a team. Tremblay could never stand that a player with more talent than him might have the audacity to recuse himself, so he stared down 33, which caused the events that we all know.

It was extremely poorly handled, but the Canadiens were in decline since Bowling Alley was the GM ages before, the Cup runs were just a balm on the wound, really. That said, I think Habs fans these days would gladly trade the current abomination for even a whiff of the destruction wrought by the Peanut-Blueberry combination, since there were merely mediocre at worst.

Thankfully they have patched things up with Roy. To this day I despise Jocelyn Thibault (referred in this parts as Jocelyn "Zero") and will mock him whenever he shows up at an event. As I will mock anyone returned in the Erik Karlsson trade, because fair is fair.

 

[double5son10]

Team president Ronald Corey wanted Roy GONE. Corey was always more interested in the team's image than with icing a great team and many were starting to view Roy's ego as having gotten too big for the team. It's the ONLY explanation for hiring Tremblay as coach, a man with ZERO coaching experience. If Corey wanted to force a confrontation with Roy, Tremblay was EXACTLY the man to do it. Tremblay had been Roy's roommate in his final season, Roy's rookie year. They did not get on well from then. After retirement Tremblay had been a very vocal member of the media from '92 on that Roy was receiving too much special treatment from Demers, that he was acting bigger than the team, that he wasn't as good as Dryden and that Roy needed to be moved. And once he became coach Tremblay made his attitude toward Roy perfectly clear. He made it a habit at practice of firing shots at his star goalies head. They had already almost come to blows on the road in Long Island. Today Tremblay claims he didn't know what to do that night against the Red Wings. What a load. His assistants, Shutt and Cournoyer, were telling him after goal seven, that he had to pull Roy. Tremblay ignored them. And in the locker room after the game Tremblay stormed in and called Roy an ***hole. A real professional that Mario. It's now known that Houle didn't want to trade Roy. He knew it was bad for the team. But Houle was overruled. Ronald Corey got his wish and that should forever be his legacy.

 

[streitz]

Roy was one of the best goalies of all time but as a person he was and frankly still is a clown.


Too much ego.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

It wasn’t isolated to just the one night. Mario Tremblay instituted a rule that non-injured players could not be in the clinic (which is where Patrick Roy liked to hang out before games since the beginning of his career) and began enforcing a rule that players could not drink in the hotel bar (another thing that Patrick Roy could do under Jacques Demers).

Roy continued to violate both rules, but had voiced to Mike Vernon before the game that he wasn’t happy in Montreal and was considering retiring - which Vernon protested, insisting that Roy just ask to be traded.

On a slight tangent, has anyone else ever found it really weird how quickly Demers got axed in Montreal, and how little interest he got for coaching vacancies before and after getting there? The guy had a pretty impressive track record for making a lot of okay teams look great, but he always seemed to be the kind of coach everyone was itching to show the door as soon as things went south.

Montreal would have imploded far less in the 90s if theyd given him a few more years IMO

 

[The Panther]

On a slight tangent, has anyone else ever found it really weird how quickly Demers got axed in Montreal, and how little interest he got for coaching vacancies before and after getting there?

Now that you mention it, yes I do find that odd.

He coached St.Louis to two winning seasons in a row (including to game seven of round 3 of playoffs) at a time when the Norris was a joke and the Blues' franchise almost folded, missing an entire draft year. Then, he was the main reason the Detroit franchise was completely revived, going from last overall and a laughing stock before he was hired to 5th overall and two straight trips to the Conference series in two years. He was coach-of-the-year two years in a row! (One bad season, and then axed.) Then, he coached Montreal to the Stanley Cup in his first year there, a second strong season, a mediocre third season, and then axed before 1995-96 had even gotten going. Does seem odd.

I wonder if Demers himself just wanted to stop at that point. Maybe coaching Montreal was the peak of his coaching ambition, and he didn't have the motivation to coach American expansion teams or whatever at that point.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Now that you mention it, yes I do find that odd.

He coached St.Louis to two winning seasons in a row (including to game seven of round 3 of playoffs) at a time when the Norris was a joke and the Blues' franchise almost folded, missing an entire draft year. Then, he was the main reason the Detroit franchise was completely revived, going from last overall and a laughing stock before he was hired to 5th overall and two straight trips to the Conference series in two years. He was coach-of-the-year two years in a row! (One bad season, and then axed.) Then, he coached Montreal to the Stanley Cup in his first year there, a second strong season, a mediocre third season, and then axed before 1995-96 had even gotten going. Does seem odd.

I wonder if Demers himself just wanted to stop at that point. Maybe coaching Montreal was the peak of his coaching ambition, and he didn't have the motivation to coach American expansion teams or whatever at that point.

Demers took over for Terry Crisp in Tampa in the early part of the 1997-98 season and coached the Lightning until 1999.

Back to Montreal. Ronald Corey probably saw a pattern of decline in Montreal's performance. Stanley Cup in 93, first round exit in 94 and missing the playoffs in 95. When they missed the playoffs, it was the first time in 25 years that Montreal failed to qualify. That was completely unacceptable by Montreal's standards and Corey needed scapegoats. If Demers (and Savard) were going to be axed, it should have been done following that season. Why wait 4 games into the next season?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i wrote this years ago. still can't answer the question any better than this:

it was painful to watch the mismanagement of the habs in the post-serge savard era. i mean, you went from serge savard, who made some pretty big mistakes (chelios, desjardins/leclair, carbonneau, lefebvre, claude lemieux) but who still won two cups and was a highly credible legend of the game, not to mention awardee of the order of canada in '94, to ex-hab dregs like houle and tremblay. and all of this while watching minnesota make it to the finals and then later becoming a powerhouse in dallas under bob gainey, jersey winning the year roy was traded under lemaire and robinson, and later bowman in detroit and of course roy himself in colorado. the entire late 90s and some of the early 2000s (nine straight cups) were dominated by ex-hab hall of famers -- not to mention ex-hab role players being leadership and "glue" guys on three of the era's four dominant teams. and in all of this time, the actual habs franchise looks like a farce.

so i'm trying to think about this from roy's perspective. the man seemed to love being hab, and you can still see that from the great interview ivan13 mentioned above. but at the same time, i think we all know that being a hab when things are good might be the best job in hockey, or at least a close second to being a leaf during good times. but the job also comes with things that suck: the fans can be great or they can be a nightmare, and when times are bad the constant scrutiny and especially the rabid press is not something you'd want to deal with. but you take the bad because the good can be so good, and for the honour and pride of wearing that uniform and being a part of that history and walking in the footsteps of morenz, rocket, beliveau, flower, etc.

so i'm thinking i'm patrick roy in 1995. the fans have turned on me, tremblay is probably trying to be tough like scotty bowman but failing miserably at it (plus i already hate the guy from my playing days), rejean houle is just a figurehead who can't stand up to an increasingly out of touch ronald corey (notice it's not houle that roy tells he's played his last game), i've probably heard rumours that my captain is on his way out because he won't learn french (and probably suspecting also that the next captain is going to be the french speaking wiener who was hiding on the bench with his head down while my brother was kicked in the head), the habs had just missed the playoffs for the first time since... i was 5 years old, while lemaire and robinson had just won a stanley cup with a young french goalie and my old buddies claude lemieux and stephane richer and i'm stuck with tremblay and houle.

even taking the embarrassment, disrespect, and his pride and ego out of the equation, patrick roy was a smart guy. i wonder if in the moment the fans were giving it to him after the easy fedorov save he decided in his head: "you know what? what's the point in dealing with the bs of being a hab if this franchise isn't even really the habs anymore?"

 

[The Panther]

Demers took over for Terry Crisp in Tampa in the early part of the 1997-98 season and coached the Lightning until 1999.

Can't believe I missed that!

Then again, looking at the team's record those two years, maybe Demers also prefers to forget it...

 

[Ivan13]

i wrote this years ago. still can't answer the question any better than this:

it was painful to watch the mismanagement of the habs in the post-serge savard era. i mean, you went from serge savard, who made some pretty big mistakes (chelios, desjardins/leclair, carbonneau, lefebvre, claude lemieux) but who still won two cups and was a highly credible legend of the game, not to mention awardee of the order of canada in '94, to ex-hab dregs like houle and tremblay. and all of this while watching minnesota make it to the finals and then later becoming a powerhouse in dallas under bob gainey, jersey winning the year roy was traded under lemaire and robinson, and later bowman in detroit and of course roy himself in colorado. the entire late 90s and some of the early 2000s (nine straight cups) were dominated by ex-hab hall of famers -- not to mention ex-hab role players being leadership and "glue" guys on three of the era's four dominant teams. and in all of this time, the actual habs franchise looks like a farce.

so i'm trying to think about this from roy's perspective. the man seemed to love being hab, and you can still see that from the great interview ivan13 mentioned above. but at the same time, i think we all know that being a hab when things are good might be the best job in hockey, or at least a close second to being a leaf during good times. but the job also comes with things that suck: the fans can be great or they can be a nightmare, and when times are bad the constant scrutiny and especially the rabid press is not something you'd want to deal with. but you take the bad because the good can be so good, and for the honour and pride of wearing that uniform and being a part of that history and walking in the footsteps of morenz, rocket, beliveau, flower, etc.

so i'm thinking i'm patrick roy in 1995. the fans have turned on me, tremblay is probably trying to be tough like scotty bowman but failing miserably at it (plus i already hate the guy from my playing days), rejean houle is just a figurehead who can't stand up to an increasingly out of touch ronald corey (notice it's not houle that roy tells he's played his last game), i've probably heard rumours that my captain is on his way out because he won't learn french (and probably suspecting also that the next captain is going to be the french speaking wiener who was hiding on the bench with his head down while my brother was kicked in the head), the habs had just missed the playoffs for the first time since... i was 5 years old, while lemaire and robinson had just won a stanley cup with a young french goalie and my old buddies claude lemieux and stephane richer and i'm stuck with tremblay and houle.

even taking the embarrassment, disrespect, and his pride and ego out of the equation, patrick roy was a smart guy. i wonder if in the moment the fans were giving it to him after the easy fedorov save he decided in his head: "you know what? what's the point in dealing with the bs of being a hab if this franchise isn't even really the habs anymore?"

I think you hit the nail on the head personally. As was said, they had issues that stemmed back to the playing days and then carried over to his pundit career where he endlessly took shots at the very organization he later became a coach to. I also believe his behavior with Vinny was a calculated move to further piss off Roy, but that is just conjecture on my part. Honestly, I don't know what was the Habs brass thinking when they hired him knowing what he was saying about the team in the media. Imagine if John Tortorella wasn't an NHL coach, but rather a pundit and has said all of the things he said about the Penguins he said as a NHL coach and then he gets hired by Pens. You think that'd sit well with the players there? Would Crosby be a fan of his if he continued to dump on him behind closed doors and if he started treating Kessel preferably?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Was the divorce between Roy and the Habs strictly due to Tremblay's embarrassing Roy in that one game against the Red Wings? Were there other factors involved?

Roy was always a petulant narcissist, prone to angry outbursts, pouting and blaming his defensemen. Tremblay probably (I'm purely guessing here) enjoyed watching his star embarrassed in front of the home crowd... he likely would have spared a different goalie the torture.

However, something you need to know about Tremblay is that he was very similar in personality to Roy. In his playing days in the 70's, he threw a glass ashtray at roommate Pete Mahovolich, cutting him for stitches. So, you had two loose cannons on the same team. If the Habs fired Tremblay sooner, Roy would have remained a Hab.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

It wasn’t isolated to just the one night. Mario Tremblay instituted a rule that non-injured players could not be in the clinic (which is where Patrick Roy liked to hang out before games since the beginning of his career) and began enforcing a rule that players could not drink in the hotel bar (another thing that Patrick Roy could do under Jacques Demers).

Roy continued to violate both rules, but had voiced to Mike Vernon before the game that he wasn’t happy in Montreal and was considering retiring - which Vernon protested, insisting that Roy just ask to be traded.

This is incredibly interesting/cool to learn that Roy "leaned on" the shoulder of a fellow "goalie homie"!

 

[Big Phil]

On a slight tangent, has anyone else ever found it really weird how quickly Demers got axed in Montreal, and how little interest he got for coaching vacancies before and after getting there? The guy had a pretty impressive track record for making a lot of okay teams look great, but he always seemed to be the kind of coach everyone was itching to show the door as soon as things went south.

Montreal would have imploded far less in the 90s if theyd given him a few more years IMO

I'll throw this in, but knowing what we know about Demers, is it possible that teams knew about his illiteracy? He was a good coach. Honestly, there will never be an NHL coach that wins the Jack Adams twice in a row again. Plus I always thought he did a good job in Montreal. One bad year in 1995 and he was gone. That desperate gamble with Marty McSorley in 1993 paid off. He had guts. But honestly, while I respect the man for accomplishing what he did without being able to read, is it possible that for all those years no one knew about this? I understand something like that is a thing you are going out of your way to hide and conceal but of all the times he is at a restaurant reading a menu, or if someone comes into his office and says something as simple as "Here, read this!" It is hard to believe anyone wouldn't have known. I know he had his assistants do a lot of reading and this could be passed off as just getting them to do some of your work, but I just wonder if this was just something teams didn't figure out eventually.

 

[Big Phil]

Okay, onto Roy. I have said this before, but this was the first time I ever saw the Montreal Canadiens publicly humiliate themselves. It just didn't happen. I did a thread a while back asking which franchise was better up until 1995, Montreal or the New York Yankees. It had a variety of answers, but I picked 1995 because the Yankees thrived after that while Montreal soured and it wouldn't be a fair poll, but up until 1995 it was. This Roy trade is the thing that did it.

Look, it was a bad trade. A bad, bad trade. I don't know why it never gets brought up as one of the worst trades of all-time because it is. Roy wins a Cup a few months later, remains an elite goalie the rest of his career, wins another Cup too. Montreal literally isn't Montreal anymore. Their magic is gone. The one guy that kept the flame going after the dynasty in 1979 died out was gone. He is responsible for 1986 and 1993. He is the guy that made you realize that you could never rule Montreal out of a playoff run, ever. He still helped give Montreal that mystique. Remember, they were still in the Forum for three more months after this. What gets forgotten is that the only star they had for the previous 15 years wasn't even at the closing of the Forum in March 1996. That was sad.

There was a fan poll done in January of 1993 and the idea was that a lot of fans thought he should be traded. I know, the date is funny isn't it? 5 months later they win the Cup because of him, but at that time, no Cups for 6 years and 1993 was a good but not great season for Montreal and Roy. Despite all of that, he is the reigning Vezina winner at this point. Montreal was just so jaded at this time. I swear, when Roy lifts the Cup in 1993, watch him when he first lifts it up, it looks like he is saying something along the lines of "in your face". I don't know, maybe he's talking in French, but his body language is saying this. Is it too the fans, or the media? Who knows.

But the guy that could control Roy - Demers - was gone. Tremblay and Houle come in and there is a reason neither of them had jobs after Montreal. They were awful. But yeah, this ruined a lot of the mystique surrounding Montreal and they've never recovered. Three months later the hallowed Forum was gone and the Habs uniform while once feared has been "meh" for 23 years.

 

[Killion]

But the guy that could control Roy - Demers - was gone. Tremblay and Houle come in and there is a reason neither of them had jobs after Montreal. They were awful. But yeah, this ruined a lot of the mystique surrounding Montreal and they've never recovered. Three months later the hallowed Forum was gone and the Habs uniform while once feared has been "meh" for 23 years.

Pretty much, ya. Really unfortunate situation, mis-management, much of the mystique of what had been the Classiest Organization in Hockey gone. Of course with business model so radically altered with the introduction of the Draft, big money hitting the game, younger players, a lot more coddling & enabling.... Roy in some respects one of a number of Poster Boy's for precisely that... many a meltdown of similar types going on for years in private where it was kept under cones of silence... and then BAM a public display.... not good.

Clearly a situation that had been building for quite some time. Management & a Coach in over their heads, an emotional perfectionist in Patrick Roy (which is a good thing in a player provided you know what your doing, engine running all cylinders which aint happenin if... Mgmnt & Coaching dysfunctional). Weve seen similar over the years but it is rare. Sittler for example, cutting the 'C' off his jersey. And so ya, sad situation & not just for Montrealers' & Habs fans but for anyone who was around in the 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's. Didnt matter what team you were a fan of if not Montreal. Couldnt help but admire the organization, its personnel, players. The city itself, rich culture & history. Everything really.

 

[DowntownBooster]

I used to cheer for Roy in Montreal, but I lost say I must some respect for him in the prima donna meltdown against Detroit in '95. You know, you're being paid millions or whatever to stop the pucks, so how about stopping the pucks? Just being a starter doesn't mean you're automatically pulled after letting some in. Suck it up and try harder!

I get that his massive ego was part of what made him great, and I can appreciate that (I am a Messier fan!). But when you start sending it up in front of the fans, you're sort of mocking the whole team.

It wasn’t isolated to just the one night. Mario Tremblay instituted a rule that non-injured players could not be in the clinic (which is where Patrick Roy liked to hang out before games since the beginning of his career) and began enforcing a rule that players could not drink in the hotel bar (another thing that Patrick Roy could do under Jacques Demers).

Roy continued to violate both rules, but had voiced to Mike Vernon before the game that he wasn’t happy in Montreal and was considering retiring - which Vernon protested, insisting that Roy just ask to be traded.

Roy was always a petulant narcissist, prone to angry outbursts, pouting and blaming his defensemen. Tremblay probably (I'm purely guessing here) enjoyed watching his star embarrassed in front of the home crowd... he likely would have spared a different goalie the torture.

However, something you need to know about Tremblay is that he was very similar in personality to Roy. In his playing days in the 70's, he threw a glass ashtray at roommate Pete Mahovolich, cutting him for stitches. So, you had two loose cannons on the same team. If the Habs fired Tremblay sooner, Roy would have remained a Hab.

Much of the talk about the Roy in general is centered around his relationship with Tremblay and the Canadiens organization (management) and his subsequent trade to Colorado. Less appears to be known about what his teammates in Montreal thought about Roy aside from the fact they recognized him as a world class goalie. Did they resent him for being so outspoken or how he disregarded team rules? Did it bother them that he would deflect blame to his teammates if he had a bad game? Were they happy to see him go when he was traded?

 

[Hasbro]

Much of the talk about the Roy in general is centered around his relationship with Tremblay and the Canadiens organization (management) and his subsequent trade to Colorado. Less appears to be known about what his teammates in Montreal thought about Roy aside from the fact they recognized him as a world class goalie. Did they resent him for being so outspoken or how he disregarded team rules? Did it bother them that he would deflect blame to his teammates if he had a bad game? Were they happy to see him go when he was traded?

He had some notable feuds with guys like Matt Schnider, but Mike Keane and former teammate Sylvain Lefevre got along with him his first year here.

Tremblay kept having run ins with other Habs too.