Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Midnight Judges]

If you're saying that his success rate when the pass is good is equal - or even close - to his success rate when the pass is poor, then you might want to show some evidence of that...

Nobody said that.

What I said is that Ovie has a knack for getting quality shots off even when the pass is poor, rolling, or bouncing.

How is this even controversial?!?

 

[Toby91ca]

A goal can exist without an assist but an assist can't exist without a goal. So why should 2 assists be equal to a goal? I don't think even, "subjective" covers it.

I get that, but sort of weird way to argue it. Of course a goal can happen without an assist and an assist can't happen without a goal....but that doesn't mean a goal should be worth more or is all the work, etc....puck just happens to go across the line.

Goals without assists happen in 3 different ways: 1) the other team shoots it in their own net (not sure if that means the player on my team that last touched the puck did something great to score the goal), 2) the other team made a terrible pass right on to the stick of my teammate, who shot it in the wide open net or 3) player picks up the puck from the other team and then proceeds to do all the work himself and score the goal.

You want to start arguing goals should be worth more than assists, might as well start arguing some goals should be worth more than others as well. Generally speaking, the logic that was derived for 2 assists is that is takes those last 2 plays to set up a goal, so it's all connected. Of course there will be times where the 2nd assist really didn't do anything but touch the puck, sometimes by accident, but you have the same thing where a guy scores a goal after the puck going off his leg and not even knowing it. More often than not, the goal is never scored without the work being done by the players that's getting the assists.

 

[Randyne]

Generally speaking, the logic that was derived for 2 assists is that is takes those last 2 plays to set up a goal, so it's all connected

2 or 3 and more plays. The play when a goalscorer makes a pass to a primary assistant is not counted by NHL.
So often it's not connected at all.

 

[Casper The Soy Ghost]

 

[Toby91ca]

2 or 3 and more plays. The play when a goalscorer makes a pass to a primary assistant is not counted by NHL.
So often it's not connected at all.

Right, when goal scorer is theoretically the 2nd assist man, you don't award him with an assist, but the goal likely doesn't happen if that initial play wasn't made. This is the same where a no assist goal where the player picks up the puck after the other team dumps and changes.....continues to skate end to end through everyone and scores....he's just awarded a goal.....for sure he did something worth more than just banging in a pass into an open net, but that's the way it goes.......once you start down that road, it's super subjective.

This is why you have people arguing all Ovechkin does is stand there an wait to unleash one-timers......dumb argument, but that's what you get when you start down a subjective road.

 

[wetcoast]

Nobody said that.

What I said is that Ovie has a knack for getting quality shots off even when the pass is poor, rolling, or bouncing.

How is this even controversial?!?

That's great he can get shots off and that's about it at this point his play has been pretty crappy this season overall already but let's focus on the goals eh?

The 91% offensive zone starts is kind of embarrassing especially when you look at that minus 7 to go with it.

 

[Randyne]

This is why you have people arguing all Ovechkin does is stand there an wait to unleash one-timers

Yeah pittsboard is fun to read. And when Ovechkin moves his leg those people are screaming that he is on roids.

 

[filinski77]

That's great he can get shots off and that's about it at this point his play has been pretty crappy this season overall already but let's focus on the goals eh?

The 91% offensive zone starts is kind of embarrassing especially when you look at that minus 7 to go with it.

The dude is 37 years old, and here you are blabbering about how his O-zone starts are "embarrassing"? That kind of salt is the only thing that's embarrassing.

We're only 7 games into the season, so maybe wait a bit longer until you start to just shit players for no reason LOL. He's still at 6 points in 7 games, 2nd in the NHL in hits, and has a crazy low PDO so far.

 

[jigglysquishy]

17 years on and no one has figured out how to stop the Ovi one timer.

I can only imagine the feeling as a goalie of knowing it's coming and being powerless to stop it.

Reminds me of getting scored on via breakaway by the same guy 9 times in one game in minor hockey. It's like a toddler wrestling their dad.

 

[CDN24]

17 years on and no one has figured out how to stop the Ovi one timer.

I can only imagine the feeling as a goalie of knowing it's coming and being powerless to stop it.

Reminds me of getting scored on via breakaway by the same guy 9 times in one game in minor hockey. It's like a toddler wrestling their dad.

You know its coming and it still takes a miracle save to stop it. I always think of this one when thinking of a save against that one-timer

 

[zappa4ever]

Every goal is some milestone:
Passes Gordie with 122 GWG

1. Jagr 135
2. OV 122
3. Howe 121

I find this stat interesting for the GP factor, and that Gretzky is nowhere near the top

GWG:
1. Jagr 135 (1733 GP)
2. OV 122 (1281 GP)
3. Howe 121 (1767 GP)
20. Gretzky 91 (1487 GP)

so OV w/30 more GWG than Gretzky in 200+ fewer games
and OV with 450+ less GP than Howe/Jagr

Didn't someone post stats on # of Goals Down by 1/2/3+, tied, Up by 1/2/3+ ?

Wonder how many goals were "stat padding" in gms up by 2 or 3 or more, looking at Wayne's 91 GWG I'd venture he leads that category

 

[wetcoast]

The dude is 37 years old, and here you are blabbering about how his O-zone starts are "embarrassing"? That kind of salt is the only thing that's embarrassing.

We're only 7 games into the season, so maybe wait a bit longer until you start to just shit players for no reason LOL. He's still at 6 points in 7 games, 2nd in the NHL in hits, and has a crazy low PDO so far.

That amount of time and 91% offensive zone starts is embarrassing for any player and I get it Ovi is the face of the franchise and they signed him long term for way too much and are now committed to the goal scoring record but when anyone watches him its easy to see that the end is near here.

 

[Toby91ca]

17 years on and no one has figured out how to stop the Ovi one timer.

I can only imagine the feeling as a goalie of knowing it's coming and being powerless to stop it.

Reminds me of getting scored on via breakaway by the same guy 9 times in one game in minor hockey. It's like a toddler wrestling their dad.

It’s not really a hard thing to figure out though….you know he’s there, you know it’s coming, but you also know you can’t cheat…..you are in the best league in the world, playing against the best players, if you cheat to compensate for one, you’ll get burned easily.

It’s interesting that shadowing a player doesn’t exist anymore like Gretzky used to deal with all the time…this is probably for the same reason I just noted

 

[NotABadPeriod]

I find this stat interesting for the GP factor, and that Gretzky is nowhere near the top

GWG:
1. Jagr 135 (1733 GP)
2. OV 122 (1281 GP)
3. Howe 121 (1767 GP)
20. Gretzky 91 (1487 GP)

so OV w/30 more GWG than Gretzky in 200+ fewer games
and OV with 450+ less GP than Howe/Jagr

Didn't someone post stats on # of Goals Down by 1/2/3+, tied, Up by 1/2/3+ ?

Wonder how many goals were "stat padding" in gms up by 2 or 3 or more, looking at Wayne's 91 GWG I'd venture he leads that category

I know Gretzky didn't have the benefit of 3-on-3 or even 4-on-4 OT which probably helped Jagr and Ovechkin quite a bit.

 

[zappa4ever]

I know Gretzky didn't have the benefit of 3-on-3 or even 4-on-4 OT which probably helped Jagr and Ovechkin quite a bit.

well for 7? years Gretzky benefited so greatly from 3 v 3 during regular time they literally eliminated it b/c of how he and the Oilers dominated and scored so much

 

[Toby91ca]

That amount of time and 91% offensive zone starts is embarrassing for any player and I get it Ovi is the face of the franchise and they signed him long term for way too much and are now committed to the goal scoring record but when anyone watches him its easy to see that the end is near here.

Maybe…I haven’t seen him play yet this year….stats wise, he had his best year in awhile last year, so don’t see him falling off a cliff…but sometimes it does happen quickly.

I’d rather not see him holding on just to score goals and break the record, but don’t think we are close to that territory yet. Also, if he’s hanging around for the last 20 goals, that’s fine, but if he just doesn’t have it anymore, hanging around to get last 60 goals would be tough to watch. Even if he falls off a cliff, he could probably hold up fine as a power play specialist, but hard to just do that

well for 7? years Gretzky benefited so greatly from 3 v 3 during regular time they literally eliminated it b/c of how he and the Oilers dominated and scored so much

The year after implementing the offsetting penalty rule, Wayne scored 215pts…..don’t think it hurt him.

 

[zappa4ever]

///


The year after implementing the offsetting penalty rule, Wayne scored 215pts…..don’t think it hurt him.

My orig point was how Gretzky has so few GWG's, looks like that 215 pt season he had a shockingly low 6 GWG's and got a lot of pts via blowouts

 

[NotABadPeriod]

well for 7? years Gretzky benefited so greatly from 3 v 3 during regular time they literally eliminated it b/c of how he and the Oilers dominated and scored so much

Perhaps, but an OT goal is always going to be a GWG. A regulation goal could be but also might not be. Either way, it doesn't explain why he's so much behind Howe who also did not have 4-on-4 or 3-on-3 OT, though Howe did have a lot more games played and you can only get a max of 1 GWG per game...

I imagine there might just be some dumb luck involved as well.

 

[CDN24]

I find this stat interesting for the GP factor, and that Gretzky is nowhere near the top

GWG:
1. Jagr 135 (1733 GP)
2. OV 122 (1281 GP)
3. Howe 121 (1767 GP)
20. Gretzky 91 (1487 GP)

so OV w/30 more GWG than Gretzky in 200+ fewer games
and OV with 450+ less GP than Howe/Jagr

Didn't someone post stats on # of Goals Down by 1/2/3+, tied, Up by 1/2/3+ ?

Wonder how many goals were "stat padding" in gms up by 2 or 3 or more, looking at Wayne's 91 GWG I'd venture he leads that category

Remember that OVI played his entire career in an era where we had no ties. So more opportunity for a game winning goal. Not sure how many ties Gretzky played in exactly as he missed some games that may have been ties, but the Oilers Kings and Rangers had 222 collective ties in Gretzky's years with them. That's games that did not have a Game winning goal.

Gretzky may be the guy with the most goals but he was primarily the setup guy as evidenced by those 1963 assists. Now if we had a stat of assisted on GWG I wonder how many of those he has, probably way more than Jagr/OVI or Howe.

 

[Toby91ca]

Remember that OVI played his entire career in an era where we had no ties. So more opportunity for a game winning goal. Not sure how many ties Gretzky played in exactly as he missed some games that may have been ties, but the Oilers Kings and Rangers had 222 collective ties in Gretzky's years with them. That's games that did not have a Game winning goal.

Gretzky may be the guy with the most goals but he was primarily the setup guy as evidenced by those 1963 assists. Now if we had a stat of assisted on GWG I wonder how many of those he has, probably way more than Jagr/OVI or Howe.

I hope we don't end up in a "Ovechkin is better than Gretzky" discussion....don't think I can handle that

 

[Nasti]

I hope we don't end up in a "Ovechkin is better than Gretzky" discussion....don't think I can handle that

Ovechkin isn’t even better than Jagr. All this thread proves is that some people, usually the younger crowd who never watched a game pre-2005, value goals more than assists, even though playmakers usually have more to do with the play than the goal scorer.

 

[pnep]

Now if we had a stat of assisted on GWG I wonder how many of those he has, probably way more than Jagr/OVI or Howe.

Player	GWAST
Wayne Gretzky	239​
Ron Francis	196​
Joe Thornton	183​
Jaromír Jágr	180​
Adam Oates	176​
Ray Bourque	166​
Nicklas Lidström	166​
Gordie Howe	161​
Henrik Sedin	157​
Sidney Crosby	156​
Alex Ovechkin	92​

 

[pnep]

Wonder how many goals were "stat padding" in gms up by 2 or 3 or more

Player	G *
Wayne Gretzky	255​
Phil Esposito	191​
Gordie Howe	179​
Guy Lafleur	167​
Mike Bossy	153​
Jari Kurri	150​
Mark Messier	148​
Maurice Richard	145​
Mike Gartner	145​
Steve Shutt	143​
Bobby Hull	143​
Jaromír Jágr	140​
Jean Beliveau	134​
Bryan Trottier	133​
Luc Robitaille	132​
Mario Lemieux	132​
Glenn Anderson	130​
Steve Yzerman	128​
Marcel Dionne	128​
John Bucyk	128​
Brendan Shanahan	125​
Frank Mahovlich	121​
Stan Mikita	118​
Gilbert Perreault	118​
Brett Hull	116​
Marián Hossa	115​
Dino Ciccarelli	115​
Joe Nieuwendyk	113​
Michel Goulet	113​
Bernie Geoffrion	112​
Jean Ratelle	109​
Sidney Crosby	109​
Alex Ovechkin	109​
Bill Barber	108​
Jeremy Roenick	106​
Ron Francis	106​
Peter Stastny	102​
Rick Middleton	102​
Jacques Lemaire	100​
Peter Bondra	99​
Bernie Nicholls	97​
Lanny McDonald	96​
Pierre Larouche	95​
Peter McNab	95​
Joe Mullen	95​
Ken Hodge	95​
Ted Lindsay	94​
Theoren Fleury	94​
Rick Martin	93​
Yvan Cournoyer	93​

Player	G *	AST *	PTS *
Wayne Gretzky	255​	472​	727​
Phil Esposito	191​	238​	429​
Guy Lafleur	167​	224​	391​
Paul Coffey	90​	289​	379​
Mark Messier	148​	230​	378​
Gordie Howe	179​	187​	366​
Jaromír Jágr	140​	226​	366​
Bryan Trottier	133​	229​	362​
Mario Lemieux	132​	225​	357​
Jari Kurri	150​	185​	335​
Steve Yzerman	128​	206​	334​
Stan Mikita	118​	198​	316​
Jean Beliveau	134​	170​	304​
John Bucyk	128​	175​	303​
Mike Bossy	153​	146​	299​
Bobby Clarke	80​	213​	293​
Gilbert Perreault	118​	173​	291​
Ron Francis	106​	182​	288​
Marcel Dionne	128​	155​	283​
Jean Ratelle	109​	174​	283​
Denis Potvin	85​	193​	278​
Mike Gartner	145​	131​	276​
Sidney Crosby	109​	167​	276​
Peter Stastny	102​	171​	273​
Henri Richard	85​	188​	273​
Glenn Anderson	130​	142​	272​
Luc Robitaille	132​	134​	266​
Ray Bourque	63​	202​	265​
Bobby Hull	143​	117​	260​
Al MacInnis	65​	193​	258​
Frank Mahovlich	121​	135​	256​
Steve Shutt	143​	111​	254​
Larry Robinson	37​	210​	247​
Joe Thornton	63​	178​	241​
Dino Ciccarelli	115​	124​	239​
Bobby Orr	71​	167​	238​
Jacques Lemaire	100​	137​	237​
Dale Hawerchuk	82​	155​	237​
Adam Oates	51​	186​	237​
Ken Hodge	95​	141​	236​
Maurice Richard	145​	90​	235​
Rick Middleton	102​	133​	235​
Mark Recchi	83​	151​	234​
Brett Hull	116​	117​	233​
Brendan Shanahan	125​	107​	232​
Doug Gilmour	66​	165​	231​
Joe Sakic	85​	144​	229​
Alex Delvecchio	78​	150​	228​
Jeremy Roenick	106​	119​	225​
Michel Goulet	113​	111​	224​
Alex Ovechkin	109​	97​	206​

* when Team up by 2 or more Goals

 

[TeeTee]

The work he does to generate these goals is second to none.

Lol

 

[Sentinel]

Not sure if serious lmfaoooo lemieux is far away better than ovechkin n that includes goal scoring


You can make the argument but ud be the only one on this earth to do so

Not really. A few people supported this assertion. As a goalie, Hasek had greater impact on the game than Lemieux.