Our defensive system.
- Thread starter kvakklunch
- Start date
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
In Torts' defensive system, everyone was required to stand in front of our own net. In AV's, no one is allowed to.
Ex Officer Friendly
Got Nothin To Say
We used to have players that played better defense. Torts also had a system forgiving to those who weren’t as good defensively cause they could block shots
Samuel Culper III
Mr. Woodhull...
This is way too simple.
We basically play strict man to man. Especially now, with our talent level depleted we should be playing zone or modified zone/mix. In man to man, our guys end up getting pulled out of position while chasing their man and don’t realize that someone has slid in back door or occupied the slot behind them while they were giving pursuit far too often. That’s where all the open, high danger shots come from. Obviously we don’t have any guys who are elite or even really good at defending. Staal was but his mobility (and vision, and confidence?) are shot at this point. Skjei can maybe get there and Pionk shows some potential on the defensive side. Nobody else is even “good” for the NHL level on the defensive side of puck. Maybe average. Yet we’re asking them to cover man to man which is just begging for their weaknesses to be exploited. A simple zone defense that stays between the puck and the net and has simple, easy to identify switches for who is responsible for covering who would definitely maximize the results for a group this raw. Keep the puck outside to the best of your ability, don’t chase your man, stay between puck and the net, limit shots.
- Oct 23, 2014
- 30,366
- 43,067
The gaps between opposing forwards and our defensemen are bad. Part of that is on the forwards, as the defense needs backpressure from forwards to stand up and maintain a tight gap.
We roll out a red carpet for teams to skate the puck in our zone. That's a big issues. So is actual coverage and x's and o's once teams get setup in the zone. net front shots are very frequent. bad boxing out and tieing up in front of the net, too.
puck retrievals and getting to loose pucks from the forwards to defenseman are horribly bad.
The whole thing from personnel to system is f***ed.
We roll out a red carpet for teams to skate the puck in our zone. That's a big issues. So is actual coverage and x's and o's once teams get setup in the zone. net front shots are very frequent. bad boxing out and tieing up in front of the net, too.
puck retrievals and getting to loose pucks from the forwards to defenseman are horribly bad.
The whole thing from personnel to system is f***ed.
Calad
Section 422
AV uses a man to man coverage system because it allows him team to have a quick transition game. Players can more quickly recognize when the puck is turned over and disengage the opposition to move up the ice and attack. There is a lot of confusion on which player each should be covering and when players should be "trading off" their assignments with others and so this leaves a lot of missed assignments and thus primo scoring chances against.
Hockey Systems - Defensive zone
Hockey Systems - Defensive zone
MarkMessyay11
Registered User
Torts obviously required a lot of shot blocking and net protection, but it was also a 5-man effort to aggressively defend the dangerous areas. I think the excessive number shot blocks were a product of not giving the opponent any real quality scoring opportunities. It's much easier to get a body in front of a shot when it's being forced or coming from a low-percentage area of the ice, IMO.
I'm really not sure what AV's defensive system actually is. It seems like a hybrid of a man/zone system that seems to fail more often than not. The amount of attention paid to the dangerous areas of the ice in Torts' system is the same amount of attention focused off of those areas in AV's system, or so it seems. Forget the number of shots taken per game (even though it's bad), and look at the number of high quality scoring opportunities allowed. I have no idea what the stats look like that track that or if there even are any...but I have to imagine we're one of the worst teams in the league at shots/chances allowed from the middle of the ice.
I'm really not sure what AV's defensive system actually is. It seems like a hybrid of a man/zone system that seems to fail more often than not. The amount of attention paid to the dangerous areas of the ice in Torts' system is the same amount of attention focused off of those areas in AV's system, or so it seems. Forget the number of shots taken per game (even though it's bad), and look at the number of high quality scoring opportunities allowed. I have no idea what the stats look like that track that or if there even are any...but I have to imagine we're one of the worst teams in the league at shots/chances allowed from the middle of the ice.
we want cup
Registered User
One of the differences that stands out most to me is how deep forwards come back in the D zone. With Torts' system forwards collapsed back to take away lanes and provide options for a quick first pass. With AV forwards are constantly flying the zone and hanging at the red line looking for the long outlet pass. IMO this explains the greater frequency of turnovers in our own zone, as guys who aren't suited to making long breakout passes have no easier options to rely on. It also explains the increase in high danger chances, as it's obviously easier to outnumber the D when the forwards are MIA.
ReggieDunlop68
hey hanrahan!
There are various types of NHL defensive schemes, just like in the NFL (thought clearly not as many). Torts, from what I can remember, basically had us playing a box plus one, where four of the players basically park it in a square formation in from of the net, leaving one guy to pursue the puck. This clogs up the front of the net and makes it really difficult to get shots through, particularly from the point--if you'll remember, a hallmark of those Torts teams was a huge amount of blocked shots. You can also line your guys up in other way in your defensive end--a 2-3, a 2-1-2, a strong side overload, other types of passive zones, etc.
That's just the actual defensive zone. A big part of playing defense is how you defend the neutral zone. Some teams will really try to clog things up an play a 1-3-1 or even a 1-4 ("the trap," as it's known) making it really difficult for the opposition to move through the neutral zone and into your defensive end. The Devils and Lemaire popularized this, and even now you see pretty much every team implementing some form of this late in games when they have a lead. However, other teams are more aggressive--stretching into offensive philosophies here--and will have more guys forechecking and therefore less in the neutral zone. And then again, there are a whole bunch of offensive strategies as well. We like to play a quick transition, and part of that is our forwards don't come back as often and wait for the stretch pass. If it doesn't come, or is bad, we're outnumbered and in trouble.
The Rangers, however, play a pretty strict man-to-man defensive system, which is exactly like it sounds: one player on the Rangers is responsible for defending one player on the opposition. If you have a team that's strong, aware, and can really skate, this I guess could be a successful system. You beat this system by being strong, fast (notice the similarities between beating it and employing it effectively?) and making quick switches--where forwards shift spots with one another, which forces the defensemen to either switch their assignment or effectively keep up with their original man. You can also beat the system by being big and strong, as you'll win pucks in corners and along the boards and come out with it with the defender behind you.
So, you can kind of see why we've had problems with our own system. We've had guys that are strong, like Girardi, but they can't skate and easily lose their man. We've had guys like Staal, who can skate well enough and are strong enough but lack the awareness to stay with their man (or maybe lack the peripheral vision). Or you get a guy like Skjei, who in theory should be able to check all the boxes, but is still adapting to the speed of the NHL and is having problems adapting to a system that not a lot of coaches employ. The list goes on. And remember, it's not just limited to defensemen: the forwards are responsible as well and need to stick with their man. So we like to run a transition game to generate offense; it's great until we turn the puck over, then everyone has to race to identify their man and get into position, and a lot of times they can't. The result of the last two paragraphs is that we're really disorganized, we don't play a system conducive to keeping down shot totals, and our personnel isn't always a great fit.
Vastly different systems yielding vastly different results.
Inferno
Registered User
Its not just the man to man..they overload 50/50picks to try to win picks back...the issue with an overload is if you don't win a puck back you're giving up a high quality shots...also adding in the fact that it's man overload you've got a lot of...is that my guy or his? If it's man to man...
Vinny DeAngelo
Jimmy Easy to defend
Basically AV says shit they have the puck run at the and take it from them or force them to give it to us. If you aren’t perfect the puck ends up in a high danger area on the other teams stick. If you get it right you fling a pass up to a teammate to get an odd man rush. Shoot on the rush and circle back to do the same.
Torts says shit they have the puck. Everyone cover the danger spots. Let them skate to the outside all the want if they don’t get a good shot it doesn’t matter. Pick up the puck off a blocked shot or turnover and dump that puck in and hammer their defense force a turnover, cycle, shoot and crash the net. If anything goes wrong skate your ass back to the front of your own net and reset..
Imo torts is the easier system. When you get lost or stuck puck watching you have support and can easily reset to the front of the net and work out. With AVs system you have to spend time identifying who is covered and who isn’t and then chase them down
Torts says shit they have the puck. Everyone cover the danger spots. Let them skate to the outside all the want if they don’t get a good shot it doesn’t matter. Pick up the puck off a blocked shot or turnover and dump that puck in and hammer their defense force a turnover, cycle, shoot and crash the net. If anything goes wrong skate your ass back to the front of your own net and reset..
Imo torts is the easier system. When you get lost or stuck puck watching you have support and can easily reset to the front of the net and work out. With AVs system you have to spend time identifying who is covered and who isn’t and then chase them down
Vinny DeAngelo
Jimmy Easy to defend
Good point. Defending the rush.
Torts would stand up and make you dump it or circle back.
AV let’s everyone skate into the zone
Torts would stand up and make you dump it or circle back.
AV let’s everyone skate into the zone
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Torts' system was boring hockey
AV's system is really bad basketball
AV's system is really bad basketball
eco's bones
Registered User
I think the general idea with AV's system is that pressuring the puck constantly leads to turnovers that can be exploited into quick strike attacks. That was the point of having fast skaters and d-men who can move the puck quickly up to them. Part of the speed thing is to let the puck do a lot of the work for you and part of what's gone wrong is the rest of the league has figured it all out and learned to counter what the Rangers do. OTOH the Penguins have figured out what the Rangers were doing better than the Rangers ever did in the first place and having a lot more talent than the Rangers ever had they continue to kill other teams with it.
The Rangers always had guys--particularly defensemen--Klein, Girardi and Staal that AV's kind of system really exposed their weaknesses. You need talent and skating to pull it off--players finding openings to exploit. The defense we have now is pretty much Skjei, Staal and a bunch of rookies. As a group they're not up to it. Over the course of the last couple years AV has made attempts to adjust but pretty much the entire shebang fell apart this year. The lack of center strength also hurts.
All in all we've had some good years. Now we need to take a couple steps back to go forward again and in doing so we're going to have to get rid of a lot old faces. Nash, Grabner, McDonagh, Miller and Holden for now. I expect AV is going to be fired when the season's done. There's no point being nostalgic about any of them. What they did--they did but they'd pretty much run their course and not won a championship. A new guy comes in next year to work with a lot of new faces--a lot of 1st, 2nd and 3rd year pros. They mix in some vets to help them along. And then another wave of young faces the year after with another mixture of vets to help them along. And then you've had two successive waves of 3,4,5 young guys each year and now you're starting to really build a core.
The Rangers always had guys--particularly defensemen--Klein, Girardi and Staal that AV's kind of system really exposed their weaknesses. You need talent and skating to pull it off--players finding openings to exploit. The defense we have now is pretty much Skjei, Staal and a bunch of rookies. As a group they're not up to it. Over the course of the last couple years AV has made attempts to adjust but pretty much the entire shebang fell apart this year. The lack of center strength also hurts.
All in all we've had some good years. Now we need to take a couple steps back to go forward again and in doing so we're going to have to get rid of a lot old faces. Nash, Grabner, McDonagh, Miller and Holden for now. I expect AV is going to be fired when the season's done. There's no point being nostalgic about any of them. What they did--they did but they'd pretty much run their course and not won a championship. A new guy comes in next year to work with a lot of new faces--a lot of 1st, 2nd and 3rd year pros. They mix in some vets to help them along. And then another wave of young faces the year after with another mixture of vets to help them along. And then you've had two successive waves of 3,4,5 young guys each year and now you're starting to really build a core.
Harbour Dog
Registered User
Our defensive system already has his own thread.
It's also his birthday today.
It's also his birthday today.
PlamsUnlimited
Big Church Bells
It works when the players are all highly talented and have tools in the box for it
It is the worst possible strategy when we don't have fast, heady guys able to retrieve pucks and make good first passes
It is the worst possible strategy when we don't have fast, heady guys able to retrieve pucks and make good first passes
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
If only we had guys in our top 4 like McDonagh, Shattenkirk, and Skjei.
- Jan 18, 2012
- 35,361
- 54,082
There's 2 forms of it.
It typically starts with 'Chase the puck' and then it transitions into 'Chinese fire drill'.
It typically starts with 'Chase the puck' and then it transitions into 'Chinese fire drill'.
The easiest difference to spot versus other teams are where the D-Men go in the D-Zone.
With most systems you will NEVER see both dmen chase the puck behind the net, especially on one side of the ice. With AV you see this all the time. This leaves the slot or the weakside option wide open.
This is the major flaw of his system, and teams exploit it over and over and over and over again. It's why you see 50 shots against.
IMO you get rid of him for repeating this level of stupidity over and over again. Tickets are more expensive than ever, and I'm not paying watch a bunch of morons on ice.
Not saying that the players are that dumb, but the direction they're receiving is equating to a very low quality product.
I watch less games, go to less games, and my interest is in other leagues and farm systems as a result. If I was the owner, and saw this trend from the customer base, I'd get replace the role where this faulty output is coming from. Plain and simple.
Thanks for what you've done, but it's not working anymore.
With most systems you will NEVER see both dmen chase the puck behind the net, especially on one side of the ice. With AV you see this all the time. This leaves the slot or the weakside option wide open.
This is the major flaw of his system, and teams exploit it over and over and over and over again. It's why you see 50 shots against.
IMO you get rid of him for repeating this level of stupidity over and over again. Tickets are more expensive than ever, and I'm not paying watch a bunch of morons on ice.
Not saying that the players are that dumb, but the direction they're receiving is equating to a very low quality product.
I watch less games, go to less games, and my interest is in other leagues and farm systems as a result. If I was the owner, and saw this trend from the customer base, I'd get replace the role where this faulty output is coming from. Plain and simple.
Thanks for what you've done, but it's not working anymore.
