Ottawa Senators need help from top 20 prospects sooner than expected | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Ottawa Senators need help from top 20 prospects sooner than expected

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Nov 16, 2005
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Photo: Colin White had 42 points in 36 games in his freshman season with Boston College in advance of the Frozen Four Tournament. (Courtesy of John Crouch/Icon Sportswire.)


</p>The Ottawa Senators have had a disappointing season both in the Canadian capital and in Binghamton. With journalists and fans alike decrying the state of the system, the team has more talent in the pipeline than most probably realize. Will any of them be ready to contribute to the big club in time to be a part of the big changes that Owner Eugene Melnyk has been threatening?

The Senators didn’t exactly dominate last fall, but they played well enough to find themselves well within playoff contention in December.… read more

The post Ottawa Senators need help from top 20 prospects sooner than expected appeared first on Hockey's Future.



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Jeez our prospect list looks terrible after Chabot + White

We already have Lazar + Ceci + Zibanejad + Pageau + Paul on the main roster, and all 5 of those guys are 22 or under.

We are a team that rushes high draft picks into the NHL, which means that our prospect depth on paper (ie: guys not already playing NHL hockey) is always going to look a bit thinner than other team's who take their time with guys.

By no means am I saying our system is hella-deep with blue-chip guys past Chabot/White, but you have to look at why our most recent high draft picks (2015 notwithstanding) aren't for the most part on this top-20 list.
 
Our list is quite depressing to look at.

Thankfully our "wonderful" GM has loaded our system with fresh young talent.:handclap:

Way to go Murray!!

I miss the good old days when our top prospects were all Swedes. Murray has turned his love for Swedes into a new found love of NCAA talent.
 
I miss the good old days when our top prospects were all Swedes. Murray has turned his love for Swedes into a new found love of NCA talent.

Murray has loved NCA(A) talent for decades, this is nothing new. It's a smart strategy for later picks, because you get more free development time to assess players before having to make decisions on them. European guys too, but that's a more recent development (the previous CBA didn't have the same 4-year exceptions for signing European talent as it does now).

Who cares what nationality our prospects are, anyways? I'd draft an entire team from Argentina if I thought they could win me a cup (hint: I don't actually think this).
 
Murray has loved NCA(A) talent for decades, this is nothing new. It's a smart strategy for later picks, because you get more free development time to assess players before having to make decisions on them. European guys too, but that's a more recent development (the previous CBA didn't have the same 4-year exceptions for signing European talent as it does now).

Who cares what nationality our prospects are, anyways? I'd draft an entire team from Argentina if I thought they could win me a cup (hint: I don't actually think this).


I actually whole heartedly agree with this statement. I don't know why Murray has such an obsession with getting Ottawa or Valley boys even though they might not be that good

As a fan I honestly don't care where the players come from. They could be from Argentina or China or anywhere else and it wouldn't matter to me one bit. All that matters is whether they can help win this team a championship or not. If they do, the fans are going to love them regardless of where they're from.

Murray's preference for drafting or signing "Good Ottawa boys or good ottawa valley boys" is irrelevant to me. He's done hat pretty much the whole time he's been GM and all it's done is produce 1 playoff series win in a decade.
 
Not to mention we possibly ruined Lazar's development. He would have benefitted so much spending 2-3 seasons in the AHL which would help him develop and work on an offensive touch. I have no idea why Murray and company wanted to bring him up so quickly. We could have easily signed a veteran on the cheap to play the same role Lazar currently has on this team.

I really hope they take their time with Chabot and White. What's the point of rushing them to the NHL anyways?
 
I don't know why Murray has such an obsession with getting Ottawa or Valley boys even though they might not be that good.

IMO, it's because the organization sees hometown guys as potentially more willing to take "hometown discounts" once their contracts get expensive.

Do right by the local kids, and maybe we get cheaper UFA deals out of it down the road. Just Budget Team Things.

At least, that is how it was explained to me by someone on the legal team like 4 years ago.
 
Not to mention we possibly ruined Lazar's development. He would have benefitted so much spending 2-3 seasons in the AHL which would help him develop and work on an offensive touch. I have no idea why Murray and company wanted to bring him up so quickly. We could have easily signed a veteran on the cheap to play the same role Lazar currently has on this team.

I really hope they take their time with Chabot and White. What's the point of rushing them to the NHL anyways?

Last Season was Lazar's first in the NHL, and he had just come off a Memorial Cup Championship.......... so pretty much nothing more for him to do in the CHL. He was ineligible to be assigned to the AHL last season, so if he did not play with the Senators in the NHL, their only option was to send him back to Junior........ for the year, where he had already accomplished the aforementioned. So the next best thing was to lend him the WJC, which the Senators did, and he lead the team to a Gold Medal................ so he finished out the rest of the season in the NHL (ineligible to be assigned to the AHL ) and returned this season and made the team........ so who are you suggesting that should have taken his spot on the Senator's roster, if as you suggest that they sent him to the AHL (for 2 or 3 seasons) this year........ the first year he was eligible to be assigned to the AHL?
 
Not to mention we possibly ruined Lazar's development. He would have benefitted so much spending 2-3 seasons in the AHL which would help him develop and work on an offensive touch. I have no idea why Murray and company wanted to bring him up so quickly. We could have easily signed a veteran on the cheap to play the same role Lazar currently has on this team.

I really hope they take their time with Chabot and White. What's the point of rushing them to the NHL anyways?

"Rushing" is one of the biggest myths (excuses) of hockey development. It's a retrospective general indictment used with no provable supporting merit.

I think it's erroneous to think that "development" in minor leagues is a blanket action that moves rookies closer to their default "potential stat" in the back ground as a rule. Too often poster's take a player's failure to live up to their personal performance expectations as "proof" that it was a failure in development, that it was an outside error, rather their own error in judgement.

Given the lack of professional evaluation talent here, it really is astounding that people arrive at this conclusion rather than at the one that makes far more sense; the player in question merely isn't as good as you're expectations, or they need more pro time to continue to develop. It must be noted that "rushing" is only ever attributed to a player in retrospect, with the benefit of hindsight, coupled with the absolute impossibility of ever knowing if the player would have actually turned out better with more time in the AHL or Juniors.

AHL development seems to be a lot more about learning to be a pro, how to play against professionals (a generally higher level of skill mixed with a much more punishing level of physicality). It also can be used to teach players how to transition from one-man-show in junior to a "team player" or guy that better understands offensive and defensive systems. Guys who need fundamentals training such as playing defense may also benefit. Management has already alluded time and time again that scoring is rarely the point of development in the AHL, instead it's the other areas of the game that hold guys back from making the jump.

Lazar likely would have gone to Bingo if he was eligible, but since he was not, management felt that he was better served with pro development one way or another over another year in Junior. Personally I doubt very much that he would be a better NHLer right now with another year in Junior. In my opinion he is progressing nicely in a bottom six role, to be an effective NHL player for us. Not every player needs to project to top 6, and getting a solid NHL player is a huge payoff for a first round pick, contrary to popular belief.

The last thing to consider is that we are a rebuilding team, which means that by nature we're going to have a lot of young players on the roster. It is important that our young guys develop together during these years, with a few vets here and their to help guide the ship. When you're a solid team guys stew in the minors because there are no spots on the team for them, but on a rebuilding squad there are lots of spots, and I for one would much rather have our NHL management team developing our best young assets than our B squad down in Bingo. I would also rather not have a team full of middling mercenaries for a few years while all prospects magically "develop" in the AHL.
 
IMO, it's because the organization sees hometown guys as potentially more willing to take "hometown discounts" once their contracts get expensive.

Do right by the local kids, and maybe we get cheaper UFA deals out of it down the road. Just Budget Team Things.

At least, that is how it was explained to me by someone on the legal team like 4 years ago.

I think its a lot more simple - this is an expansion team that came into an area where many fans already had allegiances to the Habs/Leafs. More local guys creates more of a connection with the team and more of a sense of the place in the community.
I have no problem with this strategy, to a point.
 
I would have no problem with the valley boys if they were of a Ceci, Giroux etc.. ilk rather than the Borowiecki, Cowick, Winchester etc...ilk
 
IMO, it's because the organization sees hometown guys as potentially more willing to take "hometown discounts" once their contracts get expensive.

Do right by the local kids, and maybe we get cheaper UFA deals out of it down the road. Just Budget Team Things.

At least, that is how it was explained to me by someone on the legal team like 4 years ago.

I think this is mostly just BS.

We don't appear to let "home town" factor majorly into any personnel decisions. Late picks that are a long shot to pan out are great to gamble on, especially when playing at home could be a huge drive in a young man's desire to compete, but I can't think of a single player decision of consequence that came down to this.

All things being equal go for the hometown because it's a PR home run and this is sports entertainment after all. One of the best ways to illicit fan interest is to have a few hometown player stories. If you're lucky you may save a few bucks, but it's hardly the reason FOR doing it. Just as often the home town hero has to be overly compensated because it would be a disaster to let them walk.

Every single team in pro sports hams up the home town story line when they're able to get one. Has nothing to do with long game contract manipulation, as if the difference between Boro's home discount and non home discount will be of consequence.
 
I think this is mostly just BS.

We don't appear to let "home town" factor majorly into any personnel decisions. Late picks that are a long shot to pan out are great to gamble on, especially when playing at home could be a huge drive in a young man's desire to compete, but I can't think of a single player decision of consequence that came down to this.

All things being equal go for the hometown because it's a PR home run and this is sports entertainment after all. One of the best ways to illicit fan interest is to have a few hometown player stories. If you're lucky you may save a few bucks, but it's hardly the reason FOR doing it. Just as often the home town hero has to be overly compensated because it would be a disaster to let them walk.

Every single team in pro sports hams up the home town story line when they're able to get one. Has nothing to do with long game contract manipulation, as if the difference between Boro's home discount and non home discount will be of consequence.

Sorry if I wasn't clear: I wasn't trying to say that the Sens SPECIFICALLY target hometown guys because they might be cheaper afterwards. I was more suggesting that they take chances on hometown guys sometimes when a choice between a hometown guy and another guy is presented to them, because they can maybe get a cheaper contract down the road.

We're talking like "tie-breaker" stuff here, not main-motivation "let's build our core around this philosophy" stuff. I definitely do not subscribe to the "Murray only likes Valley Boys you guys, it's true because Boro!" line of thought. I'm with you on that one.

I know the org values it... a bit. But we're talking about decisions on depth randos (doing favors for local boys who are probably no better than AHL filler and even then it's not a huge deal so who cares), the occasional late draft pick junk, and maybe as a tie-breaker for skilled guys. It's not a big deal.

Sorry about that. Should have been clearer in my post. I was getting ready to go see Batman vs Superman tonight (BonkTastic's Review: fun but meh) and didn't really flesh it out.
 
"Rushing" is one of the biggest myths (excuses) of hockey development. It's a retrospective general indictment used with no provable supporting merit.

I think it's erroneous to think that "development" in minor leagues is a blanket action that moves rookies closer to their default "potential stat" in the back ground as a rule. Too often poster's take a player's failure to live up to their personal performance expectations as "proof" that it was a failure in development, that it was an outside error, rather their own error in judgement.

Given the lack of professional evaluation talent here, it really is astounding that people arrive at this conclusion rather than at the one that makes far more sense; the player in question merely isn't as good as you're expectations, or they need more pro time to continue to develop. It must be noted that "rushing" is only ever attributed to a player in retrospect, with the benefit of hindsight, coupled with the absolute impossibility of ever knowing if the player would have actually turned out better with more time in the AHL or Juniors.

AHL development seems to be a lot more about learning to be a pro, how to play against professionals (a generally higher level of skill mixed with a much more punishing level of physicality). It also can be used to teach players how to transition from one-man-show in junior to a "team player" or guy that better understands offensive and defensive systems. Guys who need fundamentals training such as playing defense may also benefit. Management has already alluded time and time again that scoring is rarely the point of development in the AHL, instead it's the other areas of the game that hold guys back from making the jump.

Lazar likely would have gone to Bingo if he was eligible, but since he was not, management felt that he was better served with pro development one way or another over another year in Junior. Personally I doubt very much that he would be a better NHLer right now with another year in Junior. In my opinion he is progressing nicely in a bottom six role, to be an effective NHL player for us. Not every player needs to project to top 6, and getting a solid NHL player is a huge payoff for a first round pick, contrary to popular belief.

The last thing to consider is that we are a rebuilding team, which means that by nature we're going to have a lot of young players on the roster. It is important that our young guys develop together during these years, with a few vets here and their to help guide the ship. When you're a solid team guys stew in the minors because there are no spots on the team for them, but on a rebuilding squad there are lots of spots, and I for one would much rather have our NHL management team developing our best young assets than our B squad down in Bingo. I would also rather not have a team full of middling mercenaries for a few years while all prospects magically "develop" in the AHL.

Good post.

I would also add this nugget which I haven't seen anywhere. Because the Oil Kings were so successful while Lazar was there, he played a total of 67 playoff games. That's the equivalent of another full year. He played 266 games in junior...he had nothing more to prove at that level.
 
Good post.

I would also add this nugget which I haven't seen anywhere. Because the Oil Kings were so successful while Lazar was there, he played a total of 67 playoff games. That's the equivalent of another full year. He played 266 games in junior...he had nothing more to prove at that level.

Hate that term.

It's not about "proving" anything. No one would have asked him to go back down and "prove" his worth or anything. It's not a test.

It's about skill development, and playing 4th line minutes with the most offensively uncreative pros in our entire organization was just about the worst spot for him in that regard.
 
Jeez our prospect list looks terrible after Chabot + White

In what way?

Ottawa has a couple of blue chip prospects in Chabot (Top 4) & White (Top 6) who should play prominent roles in Ottawa some day & another 1st rd pick in Puempel who should be on the roster next season, if he isn't traded at the draft. They should also pick up another pretty good player in the first rd to add to their organization in this yr's draft & with a little luck maybe another in the 2nd rd. They have a few potential 2nd or 3rd line prospects in Perron, Chlapik & Gagne & a few in Bingo knocking at the door in Paul & Dzingel. They have a potential top 4 offensive defenceman in Wikstrand & two defensive defencemen in Englund & Jaros & an NHL ready defenceman in Bingo in Claesson. They have two potential #1 goalies or NHL backup goalies at least in O'Connor & Hogberg who are waiting their turn.

It may not be a great list but it's far from terrible & IMO is probably average to above average when you look at all the NHL team prospects. The strategy of this team has always been to have at least two players ready every yr who can make the transition to the NHL & I think they have succeeded in doing that & in some yrs have added more than two. That's a good sign of player development & none of them will be rushed since they have to beat out the guys ahead of them to take their jobs & if they do that, then they must be ready.
 
Hate that term.

It's not about "proving" anything. No one would have asked him to go back down and "prove" his worth or anything. It's not a test.

It's the exact term they used for Perron when they sent him back. They wanted him to play a well rounded game to show that he could play an NHL style game. What term would you prefer to be used?

It's about skill development, and playing 4th line minutes with the most offensively uncreative pros in our entire organization was just about the worst spot for him in that regard.

Last year, Lazar got acclimated to the NHL on the 4th line, as well as centering Hoffman and Stone for a bit, played in the WJC as captain, and then got to play on a key line down the stretch. I think his rookie year was quite successful.

If you want to talk about deployment this year, I completely agree. He was juggled around the lineup without being allowed to develop chemistry with anyone. I think injuries and ineffectual players played a big role in this. If MacArthur was available, the wingers would have slotted much better. Chiasson got way too much playing time over someone like Lazar...who could have done much better playing with a Hoffman, Pageau or Stone. I think Lazar's big issue has been confidence, which if he had played with better players, could have helped him have a more productive year.
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear: I wasn't trying to say that the Sens SPECIFICALLY target hometown guys because they might be cheaper afterwards. I was more suggesting that they take chances on hometown guys sometimes when a choice between a hometown guy and another guy is presented to them, because they can maybe get a cheaper contract down the road.

We're talking like "tie-breaker" stuff here, not main-motivation "let's build our core around this philosophy" stuff. I definitely do not subscribe to the "Murray only likes Valley Boys you guys, it's true because Boro!" line of thought. I'm with you on that one.

I know the org values it... a bit. But we're talking about decisions on depth randos (doing favors for local boys who are probably no better than AHL filler and even then it's not a huge deal so who cares), the occasional late draft pick junk, and maybe as a tie-breaker for skilled guys. It's not a big deal.

Sorry about that. Should have been clearer in my post. I was getting ready to go see Batman vs Superman tonight (BonkTastic's Review: fun but meh) and didn't really flesh it out.

Sorry for jumping all over that, we agree here. Enjoy your movie!

Good post.

I would also add this nugget which I haven't seen anywhere. Because the Oil Kings were so successful while Lazar was there, he played a total of 67 playoff games. That's the equivalent of another full year. He played 266 games in junior...he had nothing more to prove at that level.

Wow, that's a ton of extra games!
 

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