OOT Scoreboard 2021 Stanley Cup Playoffs - part III

[NJDevs26]

Really small sample size, but I am starting to question this Colorado blue line big time.

People have been too quick to crown Colorado in general (and Carolina to a lesser extent), sure they can beat up on mediocre teams like Arizona and an over the hill Blues team but let’s see them win a tough series like this first. And for all the talk of Carolina’s imminent greatness they weren’t even competitive against Tampa this year or Boston last year.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Well with Colorado, an overtime loss and two goals given up with five minutes left in game 3 has put them down. They coughed up a lead in the third period last night too. So the pattern has been getting ahead and not being able to hold it. But these losses have been razor thin affairs and a single overtime loss turned the series.

And everyone jumps on these extremely thin margin cliffhanging games to draw big judgments about a club. That's the name of the game in sports, you win or you lose, you're a bum or a hero, but the club is still a very strong one and a real contender to win it all. They could easily be up 3 to 2 or have won the series by now. It's been a break, a bounce, a mistake either way.

Someone here pointed to a stat earlier that teams coming off of game 7 wins will very often win their next series when up against a team that's been cruising. Maybe we are seeing that here. Vegas is battle tested and hardened. This is the first adversity Colorado has seen the year.

 

[My3Sons]

Well with Colorado, an overtime loss and two goals given up with five minutes left in game 3 has put them down. They coughed up a lead in the third period last night too. So the pattern has been getting ahead and not being able to hold it. But these losses have been razor thin affairs and a single overtime loss turned the series.

And everyone jumps on these extremely thin margin cliffhanging games to draw big judgments about a club. That's the name of the game in sports, you win or you lose, you're a bum or a hero, but the club is still a very strong one and a real contender to win it all. They could easily be up 3 to 2 or have won the series by now. It's been a break, a bounce, a mistake either way.

Someone here pointed to a stat earlier that teams coming off of game 7 wins will very often win their next series when up against a team that's been cruising. Maybe we are seeing that here. Vegas is battle tested and hardened. This is the first adversity Colorado has seen the year.

This thin margin to win or lose raises my one criticism of Sakic. He’s been building and making value trades but he hasn’t really accepted that the team is a cup contender. I think that the last two seasons he should have been more aggressive at the deadline to load up for the playoffs. If COL loses this series in another one goal game you’d think that another scorer might have turned things. Sure the value isn’t great at the TDL but it’s the cost of actually trying to win with a good team. At some point you have to accept you aren’t building anymore and your window is only open so long.

 

[tailfins]

This thin margin to win or lose raises my one criticism of Sakic. He’s been building and making value trades but he hasn’t really accepted that the team is a cup contender. I think that the last two seasons he should have been more aggressive at the deadline to load up for the playoffs. If COL loses this series in another one goal game you’d think that another scorer might have turned things. Sure the value isn’t great at the TDL but it’s the cost of actually trying to win with a good team. At some point you have to accept you aren’t building anymore and your window is only open so long.

Totally agree. This is obviously a big moment for Colorado. This is really the first time that they're coming in with real expectations. They should be a Cup finalist - anything less is underachieving.

 

[My3Sons]

Totally agree. This is obviously a big moment for Colorado. This is really the first time that they're coming in with real expectations. They should be a Cup finalist - anything less is underachieving.

And they can still rally to achieve that but I think a Hall or similar tier of player would make a difference for them in the playoffs. I also think they TDL deals send a message to the locker room. At some point you can’t be afraid of winning.

 

[devilsblood]

People have been too quick to crown Colorado in general (and Carolina to a lesser extent), sure they can beat up on mediocre teams like Arizona and an over the hill Blues team but let’s see them win a tough series like this first. And for all the talk of Carolina’s imminent greatness they weren’t even competitive against Tampa this year or Boston last year.

Ya Colorado plays in a division that has 4 very bad teams and in the opening round played a Stl team that was not only not that good this season, but was also short handed in the playoffs.

I think they are a good team for sure, and will continue to be a good team going fwd, but their success thus far was boosted by the unusual circumstances this year.

On the flip side of that is Vegas is a legit good team that has a lot of playoff experience, and maybe the best coach in the league, so I don't see the AVS losing here as a bad sign, and if they are able to win this series, which I still think is possible, they are right there with TB as the clear fav's.

Similar story with Carolina as well, especially on that last point of losing to a good team with a good coach and a lot of playoff experience.

 

[guitarguyvic]

This thin margin to win or lose raises my one criticism of Sakic. He’s been building and making value trades but he hasn’t really accepted that the team is a cup contender. I think that the last two seasons he should have been more aggressive at the deadline to load up for the playoffs. If COL loses this series in another one goal game you’d think that another scorer might have turned things. Sure the value isn’t great at the TDL but it’s the cost of actually trying to win with a good team. At some point you have to accept you aren’t building anymore and your window is only open so long.

Colorado doesn’t need more scorers. What they might need to get them to the promised land is D-men who are actually really good in their own zone. The group they have is great because they are monsters on possession…but what happens in the playoffs when you’re facing off against another team who is also great at the possession game and can make adjustments against you over the course of a series? The problem is that Vegas can also possess the puck, and when they do…Colorado is rather ordinary at playing defense. This also might be an indicator that their goaltending is nothing special, and the possession game has been masking that as well.

 

[JimEIV]

Colorado vs. Vegas is a tough draw for a second round match up...

People are unfortunately going to over analyze every single thing about the loser of this matchup.... GM decisions, rosters, playing styles, systems and philosophies...But the fact of the matter is we're watching the two best regular season teams in the league this year...It is essentially two Mack trucks coming at each full speed. Somebody has to lose.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Colorado vs. Vegas is a tough draw for a second round match up...

People are unfortunately going to over analyze every single thing about the loser of this matchup.... GM decisions, rosters, playing styles, systems and philosophies...But the fact of the matter is we're watching the two best regular season teams in the league this year...It is essentially two Mack trucks coming at each full speed. Somebody has to lose.

Maybe so, but to my eyes Vegas has clearly been the better team for like 10 out of 15 periods player so far. And in those periods they’ve been better by a wide margin. They’ve largely neutralized Mackinnon and when Vegas is playing their best, Colorado generates nothing in the o zone while getting blitzed in the d zone.

 

[JimEIV]

Maybe so, but to my eyes Vegas has clearly been the better team for like 10 out of 15 periods player so far. And in those periods they’ve been better by a wide margin. They’ve largely neutralized Mackinnon and when Vegas is playing their best, Colorado generates nothing in the o zone while getting blitzed in the d zone.

Yeah I think Vegas is playing a much better team game too... I also think they are better defensively.

These teams were almost a mirror image of each other during the regular season though - with Colorado being slightly better offensively and Vegas being a little more than slightly better defensively. Good Defense tends to prevail this time of year

COL 56 39 13 4 82 .732 -- GF 197 GA 133 +64
VEG 56 40 14 2 82 .732 -- GF 191 GA 124 +67

 

[My3Sons]

Colorado doesn’t need more scorers. What they might need to get them to the promised land is D-men who are actually really good in their own zone. The group they have is great because they are monsters on possession…but what happens in the playoffs when you’re facing off against another team who is also great at the possession game and can make adjustments against you over the course of a series? The problem is that Vegas can also possess the puck, and when they do…Colorado is rather ordinary at playing defense. This also might be an indicator that their goaltending is nothing special, and the possession game has been masking that as well.

Fair enough, but my point is less to point at a specific player than to suggest that Sakic has not made the sort of "go for it" moves to address the sort of playoff style of play that comes up. Maybe it's an extra scorer maybe it's a gritty defender. I think the issue is just Sakic not wanting to put his team into "win now" mode, but the problem is that with the salary cap, you have to have a good sense of when your window is open. COL has a heck of a team and insisting on just value trades was a mistake on Sakic's part in my view.

 

[Goptor]

Colorado has the talent but they need to learn how to win. Tampa needed to learn it as well.

The last goal is a perfect example. Graves is being challenged by Stone and throws a puck towards the goal. MacKinnon is the other defender and doesn't make the read that Graves is in trouble. He just camps the far corner waiting for the defender to get back and gets caught behind the play. Meanwhile, Girard (I assume him, never saw jersey# on replay) is at the goal line playing the wing.
They make risky plays because they have the talent to do so but that just doesn't work in playoffs OT.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Yeah I think Vegas is playing a much better team game too... I also think they are better defensively.

These teams were almost a mirror image of each other during the regular season though - with Colorado being slightly better offensively and Vegas being a little more than slightly better defensively. Good Defense tends to prevail this time of year

COL 56 39 13 4 82 .732 -- GF 197 GA 133 +64
VEG 56 40 14 2 82 .732 -- GF 191 GA 124 +67

Mostly because the whistles are swallowed and it's a completely different game. When you were getting PPs for basically all penalties in the regular season, then only get them for half or less of the penalties in the post season, it really changes things.

This playoffs blows. Boston is gonna screw us and Gary is gonna get his Vegas Cup...

 

[Hisch13r]

Colorado has the talent but they need to learn how to win. Tampa needed to learn it as well.

The last goal is a perfect example. Graves is being challenged by Stone and throws a puck towards the goal. MacKinnon is the other defender and doesn't make the read that Graves is in trouble. He just camps the far corner waiting for the defender to get back and gets caught behind the play. Meanwhile, Girard (I assume him, never saw jersey# on replay) is at the goal line playing the wing.
They make risky plays because they have the talent to do so but that just doesn't work in playoffs OT.

I hate the "learn to win". The simple fact is that it's extremely hard to win a Cup and only 1 team does it a year. The whole "Yzerman had to adjust his game to win" shit is so stupid for example. What happened in reality is that the team got exponentially better and then they still lost in 95 and 96 and then in 99, 00, 01 not because they "didn't know how to win" but because only 1 teams wins a year. Did teams like Pittsburgh and Washington forget how to win? Is that why they're losing now or is it simply because only 1 team wins a year?

 

[Camille the Eel]

Kadri being unavailable hurts Colorado a lot. There goes your second line. He has a history of this (playoff discipline) however.

 

[Hisch13r]

Kadri being unavailable hurts Colorado a lot. There goes your second line. He has a history of this (playoff discipline) however.

Yeah I won't use Kadri as a viable excuse like I think losing Grubauer last year is. You know when getting Kadri that this is a legitimate possbility

 

[Guttersniped]

Colorado could use a scorer, every team could, it could also a center but Kadri took himself out of the series with the 8 game suspension. The Jost line with Burovsky and O’Conner line and Landeskog line with Compher and Nichushkin both did ok in terms of underlying numbers but they gave up a goal and didn’t score. I see Couturier as perfect target for them.

Both Colorado and Boston reportedly made a lowball offer to Hall in off-season that he turned down. I don’t know if they had cap space at the TDL , I guess could of shipped a guy out, because they spent space shoring up goaltending, defense and center with smaller deals.

Colorado doesn’t need more scorers. What they might need to get them to the promised land is D-men who are actually really good in their own zone. The group they have is great because they are monsters on possession…but what happens in the playoffs when you’re facing off against another team who is also great at the possession game and can make adjustments against you over the course of a series? The problem is that Vegas can also possess the puck, and when they do…Colorado is rather ordinary at playing defense. This also might be an indicator that their goaltending is nothing special, and the possession game has been masking that as well.

I don’t know about ordinary, Vegas was third in Goals For and Colorado was 1st but Vegas was 1st in Goals Against and Colorado was 3rd in Goals against.

Makar and Girard are young, time will help there. They just got Toews who was an amazing pick-up and is older. Graves was very savvy pick-up, they traded an AHL player whose still in the AHL to get him, but he had a modest ceiling. Still that’s a ton of continual improvement in a short time, it’s great group, Byram is in mix too, but it’s just still young.

And Vegas’ defensive core is fantastic too, swapping out Schmidt for Pietrangelo was a definite upgrade. They defend by possession too. They’re beating Colorado by not letting them have the puck and they do it with a lot depth too. Their third pairing with Whitecloud and Holden/Hague is so good, that’s easily 2nd pair quality on many teams. DeBoer is making healthy scratch decisions between Holden and Hague too, one’s a spare defenseman. That’s almost not fair.

Tampa obviously has better super stars but I like Vegas’ depth on forward more right now. Their third line, Janmark-Roy-Tuch, is a burn unit. And their second line, Marchessault-Karlsson-Smith is murderous. And shut down just about everybody but Saad. (Tampa probably beats them with the 4th line so don’t @, I get it.)

Chandler Stephenson is their first line center, that stands out as a weak point.

I certainly thought the Avalanche would be tougher to shut down but this more a testament to Vegas. Also, some teams don’t match up well. The Wild have a ton of depth too and were oddly a tougher match-up for them.

Montreal will have it’s hands full with either team. (Probably Vegas.)

 

[My3Sons]

I hate the "learn to win". The simple fact is that it's extremely hard to win a Cup and only 1 team does it a year. The whole "Yzerman had to adjust his game to win" shit is so stupid for example. What happened in reality is that the team got exponentially better and then they still lost in 95 and 96 and then in 99, 00, 01 not because they "didn't know how to win" but because only 1 teams wins a year. Did teams like Pittsburgh and Washington forget how to win? Is that why they're losing now or is it simply because only 1 team wins a year?

I don’t think it’s fair to reduce playoff success to any one thing beyond maybe a red hot goalie when that occurs. Playoff experience seems to be a factor but it isn’t definitive as you’ve pointed out. There are other issues of course and I think emotion is one of them that often goes underrated. By emotion I mean buy in and that extreme willingness to sacrifice yourself to win. That’s hard to do at times. We’ve all heard announcers talking about “business decisions” and I think that the team also need to believe in the coach. Not all coaches command the room the way they might need to in a playoff environment. I can’t imagine Hynes is very inspiring in that regard. It doesn’t need to be rah rah. In my view it’s mire about a coach that the players know can prepare them properly to play a specific opponent a specific way at a specific time. I think that’s why a team like the NYI can win in the playoffs when maybe they are the underdog. Even then it takes talent and momentum and goaltending and luck.

 

[My3Sons]

Colorado could use a scorer, every team could, it could also a center but Kadri took himself out of the series with the 8 game suspension. The Jost line with Burovsky and O’Conner line and Landeskog line with Compher and Nichushkin both did ok in terms of underlying numbers but they gave up a goal and didn’t score. I see Couturier as perfect target for them.

Both Colorado and Boston reportedly made a lowball offer to Hall in off-season that he turned down. I don’t know if they had cap space at the TDL , I guess could of shipped a guy out, because they spent space shoring up goaltending, defense and center with smaller deals.




I don’t know about ordinary, Vegas was third in Goals For and Colorado was 1st but Vegas was 1st in Goals Against and Colorado was 3rd in Goals against.

Makar and Girard are young, time will help there. They just got Toews who was an amazing pick-up and is older. Graves was very savvy pick-up, they traded an AHL player whose still in the AHL to get him, but he had a modest ceiling. Still that’s a ton of continual improvement in a short time, it’s great group, Byram is in mix too, but it’s just still young.

And Vegas’ defensive core is fantastic too, swapping out Schmidt for Pietrangelo was a definite upgrade. They defend by possession too. They’re beating Colorado by not letting them have the puck and they do it with a lot depth too. Their third pairing with Whitecloud and Holden/Hague is so good, that’s easily 2nd pair quality on many teams. DeBoer is making healthy scratch decisions between Holden and Hague too, one’s a spare defenseman. That’s almost not fair.

Tampa obviously has better super stars but I like Vegas’ depth on forward more right now. Their third line, Janmark-Roy-Tuch, is a burn unit. And their second line, Marchessault-Karlsson-Smith is murderous. And shut down just about everybody but Saad. (Tampa probably beats them with the 4th line so don’t @, I get it.)

Chandler Stephenson is their first line center, that stands out as a weak point.

I certainly thought the Avalanche would be tougher to shut down but this more a testament to Vegas. Also, some teams don’t match up well. The Wild have a ton of depth too and were oddly a tougher match-up for them.

Montreal will have it’s hands full with either team. (Probably Vegas.)

I just think Sakic needs to grow a pair and trade a first or a real prospect going forward to try to win in the playoffs. That’s a hurdle he has yet to overcome. He’s done a great job building his team but the cap is catching up to them and they will start losing depth players over the next few years. If they can’t get past Vegas this was a big waste of a great team and opportunity.

 

[Bleedred]

Colorado could use a scorer, every team could, it could also a center but Kadri took himself out of the series with the 8 game suspension. The Jost line with Burovsky and O’Conner line and Landeskog line with Compher and Nichushkin both did ok in terms of underlying numbers but they gave up a goal and didn’t score. I see Couturier as perfect target for them.

Both Colorado and Boston reportedly made a lowball offer to Hall in off-season that he turned down. I don’t know if they had cap space at the TDL , I guess could of shipped a guy out, because they spent space shoring up goaltending, defense and center with smaller deals.




I don’t know about ordinary, Vegas was third in Goals For and Colorado was 1st but Vegas was 1st in Goals Against and Colorado was 3rd in Goals against.

Makar and Girard are young, time will help there. They just got Toews who was an amazing pick-up and is older. Graves was very savvy pick-up, they traded an AHL player whose still in the AHL to get him, but he had a modest ceiling. Still that’s a ton of continual improvement in a short time, it’s great group, Byram is in mix too, but it’s just still young.

And Vegas’ defensive core is fantastic too, swapping out Schmidt for Pietrangelo was a definite upgrade. They defend by possession too. They’re beating Colorado by not letting them have the puck and they do it with a lot depth too. Their third pairing with Whitecloud and Holden/Hague is so good, that’s easily 2nd pair quality on many teams. DeBoer is making healthy scratch decisions between Holden and Hague too, one’s a spare defenseman. That’s almost not fair.

Tampa obviously has better super stars but I like Vegas’ depth on forward more right now. Their third line, Janmark-Roy-Tuch, is a burn unit. And their second line, Marchessault-Karlsson-Smith is murderous. And shut down just about everybody but Saad. (Tampa probably beats them with the 4th line so don’t @, I get it.)

Chandler Stephenson is their first line center, that stands out as a weak point.

I certainly thought the Avalanche would be tougher to shut down but this more a testament to Vegas. Also, some teams don’t match up well. The Wild have a ton of depth too and were oddly a tougher match-up for them.

Montreal will have it’s hands full with either team. (Probably Vegas.)

I feel like Vegas is one of those teams that really has no big time superstar, but could win a cup on depth. Kind of like the Blues a couple years ago. And funny enough they both have Pietrangelo. Whereas Colorado has a lot of superstars and more fancier names.

I look at Vegas and I don’t really see any hall of fame players, outside of maybe Fleury. I don’t see any when I look at the 2019 Blues either. Ryan O’Reilly is firmly in the hall of very good and so is Pietrangelo in my mind. But with the other cup winners recently you have players like Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilevskiy (all HOF or on pace for it), Ovechkin and Backstrom. Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Kane, Keith and Toews. Doughty and Kopitar. Bergeron. Etc.

I guess my point is that St. Louis was one of those cup winners recently that had a lot of nice depth but really no superstars or HOF guys. Vegas is another one of those (save for maybe Fleury) and a team like Colorado has all of these big superstars and guys on pace for the HOF. Much like Tampa.

 

[Guttersniped]

I feel like Vegas is one of those teams that really has no big time superstar, but could win a cup on depth. Kind of like the Blues a couple years ago. And funny enough they both have Pietrangelo. Whereas Colorado has a lot of superstars and more fancier names.

I look at Vegas and I don’t really see any hall of fame players, outside of maybe Fleury. I don’t see any when I look at the 2019 Blues either. Ryan O’Reilly is firmly in the hall of very good and so is Pietrangelo in my mind. But with the other cup winners recently you have players like Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilevskiy (all HOF or on pace for it), Ovechkin and Backstrom. Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Kane, Keith and Toews. Doughty and Kopitar. Bergeron. Etc.

I guess my point is that St. Louis was one of those cup winners recently that had a lot of nice depth but really no superstars or HOF guys. Vegas is another one of those (save for maybe Fleury) and a team like Colorado has all of these big superstars and guys on pace for the HOF. Much like Tampa.

Pietrangelo is a victim of the 2008 draft, the greatest defensemen draft ever. There’s been four Norris trophies won already: Karlsson (2), Doughty (1) and Josi (1).

There’s been more Norris nominations from 2008 too: Carlson (1), Doughty (3) and Karlsson (3).

And to add the competition, there’s the 43rd pick of the 2007 draft, Subban with a win plus two nominations, and the 2nd pick of 2009 draft, Hedman with a win and 4 nominations.

Pietrangelo has come in 4th in voting 2019-20, 5th in 2013-14 and 5th in 2011-12 but he just hasn’t broken through the crowded field.
Spurgeon is also in that draft and his best finish is 11th in voting, though that’s partly due to the competition too. (I don’t think either have been robbed or anything like that though.)

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

I feel like Vegas is one of those teams that really has no big time superstar, but could win a cup on depth. Kind of like the Blues a couple years ago. And funny enough they both have Pietrangelo. Whereas Colorado has a lot of superstars and more fancier names.

I look at Vegas and I don’t really see any hall of fame players, outside of maybe Fleury. I don’t see any when I look at the 2019 Blues either. Ryan O’Reilly is firmly in the hall of very good and so is Pietrangelo in my mind. But with the other cup winners recently you have players like Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilevskiy (all HOF or on pace for it), Ovechkin and Backstrom. Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Kane, Keith and Toews. Doughty and Kopitar. Bergeron. Etc.

I guess my point is that St. Louis was one of those cup winners recently that had a lot of nice depth but really no superstars or HOF guys. Vegas is another one of those (save for maybe Fleury) and a team like Colorado has all of these big superstars and guys on pace for the HOF. Much like Tampa.

Your observation seems to agree with some small sample studies that were done back when GARWAR numbers started. I have not read them for a while but they are online for those interested. Basically they found that 3 out of 4 teams that made the conference finals as a team came up to close to 110 GAR (it was a little less than 110 but I forget the exact number) and they had a player at around 20 GAR which means that player had an MVP type of season and have at least one other player in the 15-20 GAR bucket. Those are what you are describing as TBL type of teams. STL type of team is in the group of the one of four that made it. Those teams tend to only win 1 Cup (if any) while the teams built like TBL are more likely to win multiple Cups or be in contention for a longer time. As example, the Devils of 2012 were an example of a team that did not make it close to 110 GAR and as we know they experienced no success after the 2012 run.

 

[Guttersniped]

Mostly because the whistles are swallowed and it's a completely different game. When you were getting PPs for basically all penalties in the regular season, then only get them for half or less of the penalties in the post season, it really changes things.

This playoffs blows. Boston is gonna screw us and Gary is gonna get his Vegas Cup...

One of the reasons Boston runs into trouble in the playoffs is that rely too much on PP scoring. Cassidy wasn’t bitching about calls for funsies, Boston kind of needs more PP time.

Overall they have had the third most potent PP in the playoffs if you go by rate, trailing only Tampa and Colorado, and the best expected goals on the PP.

Unfortunately for them the Isles have gone ~27 minutes on the PP this series while they’ve had about ~16. Boston lost two key PKers in Carlo and Millar, which helps the Isles PP, and so the NY Saints have 6 PP goals and the Bruins have 5.

In the Colorado/Vegas series, the Knights have the 3rd worst PP in the playoffs, by rate. They got 2 PP goals against the Wild and 2 PP goals against the Avs. The Avs have 5 PP goals in Round 2 after scoring 6 in their sweep of the Blues.

Vegas had the best Goals For 5v5 in the regular season while having 21st best PP though, that’s kind of their jam. I don’t know if that reflects a lack of super stars or just a bad PP or something else.

 

[Bleedred]

Your observation seems to agree with some small sample studies that were done back when GARWAR numbers started. I have not read them for a while but they are online for those interested. Basically they found that 3 out of 4 teams that made the conference finals as a team came up to close to 110 GAR (it was a little less than 110 but I forget the exact number) and they had a player at around 20 GAR which means that player had an MVP type of season and have at least one other player in the 15-20 GAR bucket. Those are what you are describing as TBL type of teams. STL type of team is in the group of the one of four that made it. Those teams tend to only win 1 Cup (if any) while the teams built like TBL are more likely to win multiple Cups or be in contention for a longer time. As example, the Devils of 2012 were an example of a team that did not make it close to 110 GAR and as we know they experienced no success after the 2012 run.

This is definitely interesting to me.

Now I don’t know what these numbers say about the 2020 Dallas Stars, but I feel they’re another oddball or random team and their success (yeah I know, covid decimated them before they could even play a game) was not sustained. It didn’t carry over into the next year. They have a lot of really good players, but I’m not sure I see too many superstars. Guys like Benn and Seguin are hall of very good players in my mind when all will be said and done in their career. Joe Pavelski way overachieved this past season. He’s another hall of very good player and that’s it. Some of those defensemen they have it’s way too early in their careers to say.

I’d have to assume 2021 Montreal also falls in the oddball category.

I’m not sure about the winning culture over there on Long Island. They have Barzal and a couple good but not great superstar players other than him. And there’s definitely some players there overachieving due to system/Trotz. *Cough* Varlamov *Cough*.

 

[Alex NJD]

I feel like Vegas is one of those teams that really has no big time superstar, but could win a cup on depth. Kind of like the Blues a couple years ago. And funny enough they both have Pietrangelo. Whereas Colorado has a lot of superstars and more fancier names.

I look at Vegas and I don’t really see any hall of fame players, outside of maybe Fleury. I don’t see any when I look at the 2019 Blues either. Ryan O’Reilly is firmly in the hall of very good and so is Pietrangelo in my mind. But with the other cup winners recently you have players like Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilevskiy (all HOF or on pace for it), Ovechkin and Backstrom. Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Kane, Keith and Toews. Doughty and Kopitar. Bergeron. Etc.

I guess my point is that St. Louis was one of those cup winners recently that had a lot of nice depth but really no superstars or HOF guys. Vegas is another one of those (save for maybe Fleury) and a team like Colorado has all of these big superstars and guys on pace for the HOF. Much like Tampa.

I agree with your post overall but I really feel like Mark Stone is definitely in the discussion for best RW in the league and has been in that convo for ~3 years. He's not very flashy and may not jump to mind when you say "superstar" but he's among the best players in the league IMO.