Olympics 2018

[roto]

It's true that players have indicated that they want to play in Olympics, but still they don't want it enough to make a deal with owners. It's also true that most of the NHL players won't be playing in Olympics, so they probably are not ready to make big sacrifices for it. It's about money, and players want money as well as owners do. I wonder what kind of proposals player association has made to solve the problem. Player association definitely can solve the case, but the outcome will be that players will be paid less. In other leagues these kind of Olympic participation expenses are also deducted from the salary in way or another => players just get paid less in the end.

NHL players always tell how much they want to win Stanley Cup and much it means to them that team wins blah blah... At the same time the top players want to get as much salary as possible, even if it makes it harder to build a winning team. It very rare that a player gives a significant discount to team where they play. I'm not talking about some $1M discounts, but I'm talking about discounts like what Selänne gave some 10 years ago. He played with $1-2M salary for many seasons to help to build a winning team.

It's easy for players to say "I want to play in Olympics" and "I want to win Stanley Cup", but in practice money has very high priority. Personally I wouldn't mind much if NHL players didn't participate in next Olympics.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Sure, but they are going against their typical pro-NHL party lines. Those writers, the writers for the major newspapers, they all say basically the same thing, which is that the players want to go. If that wasn't the case, surely someone would be reporting it. It also makes intuitive sense since without the union pushing for it the owners would have basically no reason to entertain the thought of going to the Olympics anymore.



I've got no fondness for the IOC or the IIHF in general, though in this case the IIHF does appear to be doing a good job trying to bring some semblance of "peace".

NHL owners who do attend the Olympics are also put off by the fact that they don't get wined and dined and VIP private box IOC treatment. They get 2 tickets to whatever game suits their fancy and have to go through security check with the rest of the unwashed dregs of society. That's what Bettman is really after...everything else is just noise.

 

[JackSlater]

NHL owners who do attend the Olympics are also put off by the fact that they don't get wined and dined and VIP private box IOC treatment. They get 2 tickets to whatever game suits their fancy and have to go through security check with the rest of the unwashed dregs of society. That's what Bettman is really after...everything else is just noise.

McKenzie has said basically what you are saying, but I doubt it is the what Bettman is really after. It's a petty look for the NHL, but in this regard they are not in the same stratosphere as the IOC.

 

[LifeIsLoud]

McKenzie has said basically what you are saying, but I doubt it is the what Bettman is really after. It's a petty look for the NHL, but in this regard they are not in the same stratosphere as the IOC.

Mckenzie also said that hotels for player's families need to be booked in 3 or 4 weeks. Otherwise they will have to stay in a "motel 6" as that will be all that available and that won't jive with the players.

 

[JackSlater]

Mckenzie also said that hotels for player's families need to be booked in 3 or 4 weeks. Otherwise they will have to stay in a "motel 6" as that will be all that available and that won't jive with the players.

I heard that interview too. We've heard a lot of deadlines brought up, and none of them have stuck yet. Who knows with this one. If the accommodations for non-athletes are actually all gone in a few week, it will be yet another obstacle.

 

[gwh]

So how long you think it takes to for US olympic committee to give in and pay the insurances?

1. IOC is not paying, due to already giving that 60-100mil extra to US OC.

2. IIHF (Rene Fasel) has promised to pay, but someone (NHL?) doesn't allow this solution. IIHF money = hockey money = taken from Canadian Juniors and national hockey teams in places like Kazakhstan.

So combining 1 and 2, this is again about Jimmy Carter's theft of the international olympic trademark and the absolute loathing IOC has for US OC.

 

[xxxx]

So how long you think it takes to for US olympic committee to give in and pay the insurances?

1. IOC is not paying, due to already giving that 60-100mil extra to US OC.

2. IIHF (Rene Fasel) has promised to pay, but someone (NHL?) doesn't allow this solution. IIHF money = hockey money = taken from Canadian Juniors and national hockey teams in places like Kazakhstan.

So combining 1 and 2, this is again about Jimmy Carter's theft of the international olympic trademark and the absolute loathing IOC has for US OC.

US Olympic Committee paying for players from foreign nations? Yeah, I don't think so. I'm not really sure how this is related to the NHL and the IOC solving their issues in any other way than that there are a few people under the US olympic program that would go to Korea as a part of the men's hockey team.

 

[JackSlater]

So how long you think it takes to for US olympic committee to give in and pay the insurances?

1. IOC is not paying, due to already giving that 60-100mil extra to US OC.

2. IIHF (Rene Fasel) has promised to pay, but someone (NHL?) doesn't allow this solution. IIHF money = hockey money = taken from Canadian Juniors and national hockey teams in places like Kazakhstan.

So combining 1 and 2, this is again about Jimmy Carter's theft of the international olympic trademark and the absolute loathing IOC has for US OC.

What is this supposed to mean?

 

[gwh]

US Olympic Committee paying for players from foreign nations? Yeah, I don't think so. I'm not really sure how this is related to the NHL and the IOC solving their issues in any other way than that there are a few people under the US olympic program that would go to Korea as a part of the men's hockey team.

That was the point. The issue is not NHL vs IOC.

It is IOC vs. US OC.

The 100 mil that IOC pays to US OC* for these games and on top they have to pay another 10-20 mil for insurance for NHL owners... Hard sell in an event with 100 different sports and 500mil revenue.

As for "paying for another country"... The beneficiaries are the NHL owners, so it all goes to 22/30 US NHL teamowners. (7 CAN and 1 german owner).

Going to be interesting. I don't think IOC will budge, with limited revenue expectations from US due to timezone.

* 1978 Jimmy Carter robbed the olympic trademark to his own cronies in the US, so IOC-USOC relations have been extremely tense. Now with the China-India-etc on the rise, it is really hard to explain why USOC gets 20% of global avertising revenue and 13% of global TV rights until 2020.

 

[xxxx]

That was the point. The issue is not NHL vs IOC.

It is IOC vs. US OC.

The 100 mil that IOC pays to US OC* for these games and on top they have to pay another 10-20 mil for insurance for NHL owners... Hard sell in an event with 100 different sports and 500mil revenue.

As for "paying for another country"... The beneficiaries are the NHL owners, so it all goes to 22/30 US NHL teamowners. (7 CAN and 1 german owner).

Going to be interesting. I don't think IOC will budge, with limited revenue expectations from US due to timezone.

* 1978 Jimmy Carter robbed the olympic trademark to his own cronies in the US, so IOC-USOC relations have been extremely tense. Now with the China-India-etc on the rise, it is really hard to explain why USOC gets 20% of global avertising revenue and 13% of global TV rights until 2020.

I sense a conspiracy thinking here.

I'm not going to participate in that nonsense, but one thing that should be clear to you - the money for accomodations for example are not for "NHL owners". The money for accomodations and travel costs are purely "out there" to be paid if the NHL participates, it doesn't go into anyone's pocket, so I'm not sure how did you figure that these money would go into owners' pockets. And only to the US' owners? Lol.

I may be sorry that I asked, but I have to - do you have any real source for the things you are claiming?

 

[Past Considerations]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-2018-nhl-exclusive-idUSKBN1701CM

Exclusive: Federation to cover NHL costs at 2018 Winter Games - IOC

The International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) has agreed to pay NHL players' travel and insurance costs to try to lure them to the 2018 Winter Olympics but team owners have set more commercial demands, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) said on Wednesday.

The NHL and the international federation have been locked in talks over the world's best players' participation in next year's Games in Pyeongchang, South Korea, with team owners frustrated by the forced shutdown of the season for two-and-a-half weeks.

Recent Winter Olympics have been preceded by the question of whether NHL players will take part, with negotiations often continuing right up to the eve of the event.

The IOC had covered those costs for the last five Games but said it would no longer do so for 2018. The IIHF stepped in and clearly hopes that a contribution that could run to up to $20 million will help resolve the situation.

For handing over a talent pool with contracts valued at $3.5 billion the NHL is seeking something akin to IOC Top Sponsor status which would allow the league to market the Winter Games on its platforms.

"Because of the interest of the Olympic movement to see the NHL players in the Olympic Games, the IIHF has ensured that the travel and insurance cost of the NHL players will be fully covered, as was the case in previous Olympic Games," IOC spokesman Mark Adams said.

Adams told Reuters talks between the NHL and the IIHF were ongoing but the IOC would not be treating the NHL team owners any differently than other international sports federations it deals with.

"Obviously, this time the owners of the NHL clubs are putting more commercial conditions to the IOC and the Olympic movement," Adams said.

"The IOC has been informed the talks between the International Federation and the NHL are continuing.

"The IOC knows that the NHL understands that the Olympic movement cannot treat the owners of a commercial franchise of a national league better than an international sports federation or other professional leagues with regard to the Olympic Games."

Several players have said they will compete in the Olympics regardless of the NHL's decision and Japanese tire maker Bridgestone, which is both an IOC Top Sponsor and major NHL advertiser, is also trying to help push a deal forward.

"We know that the players definitely want to play and the fans want to watch the best players in the Olympic Winter Games Pyeongchang 2018," Adams said.

"These Games give the greatest worldwide exposure to the sport of ice hockey. The offer for the two Olympic Winter Games

2018 and 2022 remains on the table and we are still hopeful there will be an agreement in the interests of all."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-icehockey-nhl-china-idUSKBN1700Y0

Bettman did not sound moved by the gesture.

"The expenses that they say are being paid are consistent with the prior Olympics – that is not the issue we are dealing with," he told a media briefing at an arena in the Chinese capital. "We are focused on the disruption of the season."

 

[patnyrnyg]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-2018-nhl-exclusive-idUSKBN1701CM



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-icehockey-nhl-china-idUSKBN1700Y0

Translation: We do not want to shut down our season to go, but now our convenient excuse is out the window. We still don't want to go, and this is our reason now.

 

[Yakushev72]

Translation: We do not want to shut down our season to go, but now our convenient excuse is out the window. We still don't want to go, and this is our reason now.

It comes down to whether the NHL still believes that it needs the Olympics, and not the other way around. In 1998, the NHL needed the Olympics to project the image of a major league in a major sport to a World that, for the most part, had no idea who Wayne Gretzky was. The issue in regard to future participation is whether they believe that they still need the Olympics to project relevance. If not, they won't derail their league for a month, shut down whatever momentum existed for teams before the break in what amounts to 2 separate seasons.

 

[JackSlater]

Translation: We do not want to shut down our season to go, but now our convenient excuse is out the window. We still don't want to go, and this is our reason now.

Basically yes. Though this news from the IIHF isn't actually new, it is amusing that the NHL so suddenly changed its issue. A fair number of people believed the NHL that insurance was the main issue before despite the evidence against that, and some will continue to believe whatever the NHL offers as an excuse. The owners just don't like going, and they haven't for a long time. If the insurance cost is covered, then going to the Olympics this time is not significantly different than going in 1996, 2006 and 2014.

It comes down to whether the NHL still believes that it needs the Olympics, and not the other way around. In 1998, the NHL needed the Olympics to project the image of a major league in a major sport to a World that, for the most part, had no idea who Wayne Gretzky was. The issue in regard to future participation is whether they believe that they still need the Olympics to project relevance. If not, they won't derail their league for a month, shut down whatever momentum existed for teams before the break in what amounts to 2 separate seasons.

The NHL certainly never needed the Olympics and never believed that. Participation began out of optimism that Olympic participation would help the NHL go, not out of any requirement. Your speculation on Gretzky isn't accurate either. Gretzky was mobbed by Japanese people when he arrived for the Olympics, similar to how he used to be mobbed in Edmonton.

 

[Yakushev72]

Basically yes. Though this news from the IIHF isn't actually new, it is amusing that the NHL so suddenly changed its issue. A fair number of people believed the NHL that insurance was the main issue before despite the evidence against that, and some will continue to believe whatever the NHL offers as an excuse. The owners just don't like going, and they haven't for a long time. If the insurance cost is covered, then going to the Olympics this time is not significantly different than going in 1996, 2006 and 2014.



The NHL certainly never needed the Olympics and never believed that. Participation began out of optimism that Olympic participation would help the NHL go, not out of any requirement. Your speculation on Gretzky isn't accurate either. Gretzky was mobbed by Japanese people when he arrived for the Olympics, similar to how he used to be mobbed in Edmonton.

Optimism? What optimism? What were they hopeful that the Olympics would deliver for them? Very curious!

[MOD]

 

[Nino33]

It comes down to whether the NHL still believes that it needs the Olympics, and not the other way around. In 1998, the NHL needed the Olympics to project the image of a major league in a major sport to a World that, for the most part, had no idea who Wayne Gretzky was. The issue in regard to future participation is whether they believe that they still need the Olympics to project relevance.

What? I think you're projecting your own wishful thinking onto things...the NHL never needed the Olympics, nor have they needed to project relevance (the NHL has always been the place for the best hockey players to play, where the highest level of competition occurs)

I don't recall what you're saying being talked about in 1998 (I don't recall the NHL lacking relevance because of a lack of Olympic participation ever being mentioned at any point in history)...I do recall the opposite being talked about back in 1998 and ever since, the idea that if the Olympics doesn't have NHLers the Olympics aren't relevant


While many European/Russian hockey fans like to promote the idea how meaningless the NHL/Stanley Cup is, decades of the NHL having the world's best players IMO means that such views are just wishful thinking by those that care more about nationalism than actual elite hockey competition - without NHLers the Olympics are irrelevant (even with NHLers the Worlds have little relevance...I can't see how having no NHLers does anything but significantly decrease relevance for the Olympics)

 

[JackSlater]

Optimism? What optimism? What were they hopeful that the Olympics would deliver for them? Very curious!

It's very obvious. Larger exposure on the international scale. Direct Bettman quote from 1995:

“If the players want to go, well go,” Bettman told the Boston Globe. “There would be over 100 participants from the NHL. You can’t beat that worldwide exposure.”

Wanting exposure is not quite the same thing as needing exposure.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Optimism? What optimism? What were they hopeful that the Olympics would deliver for them? Very curious!

Are you serious? The hope was the Americans who watch Olympic hockey just because it is in the Olympics would see the NHL'ers playing, and then begin watching the NHL after the Olympics were over. Didn't work.

 

[gwh]

Are you serious? The hope was the Americans who watch Olympic hockey just because it is in the Olympics would see the NHL'ers playing, and then begin watching the NHL after the Olympics were over. Didn't work.

It gives nice bump in the google trend graph for "ice hockey" lasting about 1 month. So it sort of works a little. Also searches during olympics gives a massive global spike.

Last 5 years for "ice hockey"
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=ice hockey

That May spike is IIHF Champs. January spike is WJC. Overall curve is pretty much the NHL hockey season. The NHL World cup was slightly worse than WJC.

Here is comparison between National hockey league and Winter olympics. Notice how NHL dips when Olympics spikes.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=/m/03mfdg,/m/05gwr

 

[Yakushev72]

What? I think you're projecting your own wishful thinking onto things...the NHL never needed the Olympics, nor have they needed to project relevance (the NHL has always been the place for the best hockey players to play, where the highest level of competition occurs)

I don't recall what you're saying being talked about in 1998 (I don't recall the NHL lacking relevance because of a lack of Olympic participation ever being mentioned at any point in history)...I do recall the opposite being talked about back in 1998 and ever since, the idea that if the Olympics doesn't have NHLers the Olympics aren't relevant


While many European/Russian hockey fans like to promote the idea how meaningless the NHL/Stanley Cup is, decades of the NHL having the world's best players IMO means that such views are just wishful thinking by those that care more about nationalism than actual elite hockey competition - without NHLers the Olympics are irrelevant (even with NHLers the Worlds have little relevance...I can't see how having no NHLers does anything but significantly decrease relevance for the Olympics)

It begs the question. You say that the NHL never needed the Olympics, and yet they shut down their season for an extended period every Olympics since 1998 in order to participate. What is the reason for doing that? Need is really the only real motive that seems to exist to explain this behavior.

 

[Yakushev72]

Are you serious? The hope was the Americans who watch Olympic hockey just because it is in the Olympics would see the NHL'ers playing, and then begin watching the NHL after the Olympics were over. Didn't work.

Agreed. They NEEDED the Olympics to get exposure in the United States that they otherwise wouldn't get.

 

[Yakushev72]

It's very obvious. Larger exposure on the international scale. Direct Bettman quote from 1995:

“If the players want to go, well go,†Bettman told the Boston Globe. “There would be over 100 participants from the NHL. You can’t beat that worldwide exposure.â€

Wanting exposure is not quite the same thing as needing exposure.



I don't quite know what geishas, who I suppose had time traveling technology, have to do with anything. Al Strachan actually covered the Canadian team at the 1998 Olympics and described Gretzky as being quite well known by some Japanese people who sought him out. I'm inclined to believe that he didn't make the whole thing up. Other national reporters in Canada who attended the tournament wrote about the surprising amount of attention that Gretzky received from Japanese people as well.

And so they shut down operations because they needed the Olympics, which seems to have offered the only practical avenue for vastly increasing the exposure that you say that they wanted. Which seems to be in no way different than saying that the NHL needed the Olympics much more than the Olympics needed the NHL.

 

[Nino33]

It begs the question. You say that the NHL never needed the Olympics, and yet they shut down their season for an extended period every Olympics since 1998 in order to participate. What is the reason for doing that? Need is really the only real motive that seems to exist to explain this behavior.

Maybe it's semantics...I don't use the word "need" for everything that the NHL does, or I do, etc

Just because they did so doesn't mean they needed to...and the fact that they're openly considering not doing so certainly shows they don't need to


I'm not sure why you use the phrased "extended period" for the NHL shutdown either (I suspect you were attempting to show how important the Olympics were); I think you could find hundreds of posts on HFBoards saying it's not an extended period, belittling the NHL while saying "it's only a couple/few weeks" (so the reality is IMO that it's not much and the NHL still isn't overly interested, certainly not "needing" the Olympics)



Canada Cups were better than any Olympics IMO...I'd be fine with going back to such tournaments while again ignoring the Olympics; I understand that many European/Russian hockey fans will disagree, but as long as the NHL and NHL tournaments like the old Canada Cup continue to have the world's best players playing, I don't think the vast majority of NA hockey fans are going to care

European/Russian hockey fans have been saying the Olympics/Worlds are most important since I started watching hockey...in fact, they used to say that their domestic leagues were more important than the NHL too - now they only seem to say it about the Olympics; it won't surprise me if in coming years that'll change too)



The Olympics need the best athletes to show up to make their competitions relevant/interesting...the NHL already has that, with no sign of that changing.

And so they shut down operations because they needed the Olympics, which seems to have offered the only practical avenue for vastly increasing the exposure that you say that they wanted. Which seems to be in no way different than saying that the NHL needed the Olympics much more than the Olympics needed the NHL.

As JackSlater said, "Wanting exposure is not quite the same thing as needing exposure"

 

[gwh]

Canada cup is dead. WJC has bigger foot print this years world cup.

They even didn't make much money, unlike WJC who made 22mil for the Canadian junior hockey.

 

[Nino33]

Canada cup is dead. WJC has bigger foot print this years world cup.

They even didn't make much money, unlike WJC who made 22mil for the Canadian junior hockey.

That's your opinion, mine's different

This year's World Cup was the first one held in 12 years, and in the interim the NHL/best players in the world have been going to the Olympics...if this changed, and the only chance to see the world's best players play internationally was the World Cup it'll IMO crush the ratings and money made by the WJC



There is one factor that I think could affect this...the continued use of "combined teams" (U23 Team NA and Team Europe) - I am among the many who hated the idea (I myself didn't watch much of the tournament and didn't even bother watching the Final at all because of it)

If they get rid of these combined teams, the tournament IMO is immediately better than all but the Olympics, and if NHLers aren't playing in the Olympics it (IMO and that of many others) immediately becomes the only international tournament that would ultimately matter (as it'd be the only possible best-on-best tournament)