Olympics 2018

[alko]

I doubt that. IOC doesn't seem willing to budge, and I can understand their reasoning and the NHL doesn't seem willing to budge.

Bettman already said, there is strong interest to going to 2022. Because of China.
More than 1 000 000 000 people live there. Very very big market. And money are only on the first place.

 

[Jablkon]

I am not quite sure how you gathered that staying up late or getting up early to watch international hockey is new for me, it is not. I have been doing that for world juniors and olympics for ages now,i was up before the crows called to watch the sochi hockey, maybe something was lost in translation here?.

That was my misunderstanding. Probably culture difference. I dont remember I talked about timing to anybody. I just always accept it as fact. So when Cherry and you mentioned it, I was like "thats normal, whats their problem?". I got the context now.

What I am saying is that I won't be watching at abnormal hours for olympic hockey without the best players because it is essentially meaningless for me now and most Canadians I have talked to seem to feel the same way, if they replay the Canadian games during prime time I may be induced to watch i suppose, it is hockey after all and eventhough it will now be a heavily watered down tournament that signifies absolutely nothing there will still be a team representing us.

understand

There was a time before our best players could play that I would watch no matter what time because we could not send our best players and I wanted to support them and hope for the big upset, our miracle on ice so to speak. But the genie is out of the bottle now, we have had(everyone has) all our best now and I and many Canadians just cannot go back to 2nd rate olympic hockey in this day and age, it just isn't the same. It's now a bogus tourney that doesnt mean anything more then winning the spengler cup does, it really doesn't. Without nhl player involvement that is what it has been reduced to for most Canadians.

In my opinion its the second rate tourney just from perspective of quality. Otherwise its the most important tourney in the world and spirit will be always there. Thats why all the players want to be part of it.

That is where we probably disagree. I suspect NHL not to allow palyers to go there because it would just confirm above mentioned. And even if OG is not and should not be NHL competitor, I somehow feel that NHL perceive it in that way, especially with World cup comming. However in my point of view OG is not problem, problem is NHL attitude towards World Cup. You cant make int. tourney when you dont care about rest of the fans. He said "I believe it is the best int tourney".According to what evidence? Did he ever asked czech fans what they want?It was very cool tourney, but, sorry to say that, it was also kind of weird.

I do understand your frustration with the NHL over this matter and I agree with a lot of it but it's a money thing, just like the "world championships" are a money thing and where it is catered to European fans , I just don't and have never seen any backlash from european fans that it is 99.5 % always in Europe, they seem to be o.k with that.

It's a European tradition and party and they are just fine keeping it that way.

Speaking abut money thing I think we all know it, except it is more survival and legacy thing in Europe. That is the reason imo why european fans interpret in way "we earn a lot and we dont want to earn less for three weeks" But,yeah, I understand, still I would assume that we we all would appreciate tourney that at least pretend its not that much about money,even if it always is...

The NHL is doing what they think is best for their business and market in this matter, they could very well be wrong but they are following the same mental process that the IIHF does concerning the so called world championships, i don't see any unease or protest from European fans about it.Their attitude is, "hey, you didnt bid on it so don't complain to us about what times the games are on". They have always been rather smug about it!!

O.K, whatever I guess.

I dont get it here. In what way?I doubt you can make any adjustment to WHC, except making it every two years ( I would miss it) or in September. Other leagues are too short. And hey, we dont think WHC is the most important tourney deciding who is best, I personally just like it

Hey, I would very much prefer the best pros stay playing in the olympics, it has brought a lot of joy to me as a Canadian fan. But i just do not see how what European fans want should play any part in their decision whether to play or not, they are such a tiny sliver of the NHL market, miniscule.And N.A fans are just a tiny sliver of the WHC market and it shows and decisions are made accordingly. Let's be honest, though you may be one of the precious few that actually do stay up at ungodly hours to watch the NHL games you are a fairly rare beast, there just are very few European fans doing that, they follow their domestic leagues mostly.

You are right in everything here except I watch NHL live only on saturday in reasonable times. That differences are basically the reason for me we should have one connecting tourney. But everybody must commit something to it. There is no way how NHL can benefits from OG imo, except they would get direct income from it, but then every league would want part of it.

You can't expect it to be any different here.

Bottom line, it appears that the NHL is not going to the 2018 winter games and I and many Canadians won't be getting up at 3 a.m to watch Cory Emmerton and his ilk play for a gold medal that does not mean very much in our view.

I really believe you can understand this. Just because it would still be highly valued in Europe doesn't mean it will or even should be to us

I understand, what I dont understand much is NHL explanation

 

[patnyrnyg]

Bettman already said, there is strong interest to going to 2022. Because of China.
More than 1 000 000 000 people live there. Very very big market. And money are only on the first place.

So, are those 1,000,000,000 people not going to watch on tv in 2018? Are they all going to attend events in 2022? Hell no. Most of the people at those games will be foreigners flying in and wealthier chinese people. It is expensive to attend Olympic events and the average joe in China will be watching on tv, just like the rest of us. Not sure how it will be different for them in 2022 as it will be in 2018.

 

[Nino33]

A good opportunity for the KHL to market itself in Asia all this.

The idea seems odd to me (wishful thinking IMO).....the KHL's been contracting teams (and not just this year), and salaries have plummeted, so I wouldn't think going into a non-hockey market would be a feasible/realistic "good opportunity" given the circumstances (IMO the opportunity is limited and the "marketing" would certainly be harder to do based on the KHL's existing challenges, regardless of NHL involvement in the Olympics)

 

[Nino33]

If Canada misses out on the medal, you can bet your ass that the NHLers will be back in the China OG. Unfortunatly though Canadas team will still have a good chance to get to the finals, just a bit less than usual, which could just make it extra interesting to follow in a way for Canadian fans.

I can recall the 1976-1994 Olympics when there wasn't NHL participation and Canada didn't care much about the results (even if they did win a medal), and I think it'll be that way again (Canada didn't even send a team to the 1972/1976 Olympics); I don' think Canadians care all that much even with NHLers involved (it's just some entertainment/something to watch for a very brief period every four years)

 

[Nino33]

I dont remember somebody mentioned it before in regards to european fans. You guys are too picky and some are definetely selfish - like Don Cherry. Seems like Europe deals easier with all obstacles like league breakes, morning broadcast etc. That narciss Bettman certainly does not help to it...When I watched him calling from CHina to NHL broadcast - its not even funny, NHL looks like sect. Even that moderators looked terrified how far from people he is. "its a honour to receive such vase..." repeating all that empty words like robot....

I think you need to refresh your understanding on what narcissism means - Europeans telling the NHL and NA hockey fans that they have to think the same way as Europeans do and behave in ways that Europeans want based on what Europeans value seems to me extremely narcissistic

 

[meangene]

IF NHL actually ends up going:

Marchand-Crosby-Bergeron
Benn-McDavid-Seguin
Tavares-Toews-Stamkos
Duchene-MacKinnon-Scheifle
Giroux

Vlasic-Doughty
Keith-Subban
Burns-Parayko
Ekblad

Price
Holtby
Murray

Coaches: Babcock, Quennville, Julien, Trotz

Basically just the WCOH team with McDavid and a handful of younger guys in role-player positions. The defense is interesting b/c it looks like it's in a bit of a transition phase with some of the older stalwarts like Weber and Petro getting phased out. USA will be much more competitive if they bring guys like Matthews and Eichel, but I think Canada's core with the addition of McDavid + young guys is still good enough to win Gold in 2018.

 

[Lebowski]

It is kinda embarassing how people tend to automatically disparage the whole tournament like KHL and EU leagues were some third-class crap. Obviously, the quality will suffer a lot, but it will still be a top-class tournament.

It can work out decently for Russia and some Euro countries, but not for Canada and the USA as all their top players, without exception, are in the NHL.

The cream of absolutely every country is in the NHL, anyway you slice it. You take them out of the equation and it becomes a 2nd tier competition, when it should be the most prestigious international competition.

If the NHL isn't there, I won't bother watching.

 

[Snowsii]

It can work out decently for Russia and some Euro countries, but not for Canada and the USA as all their top players, without exception, are in the NHL.

The cream of absolutely every country is in the NHL, anyway you slice it. You take them out of the equation and it becomes a 2nd tier competition, when it should be the most prestigious international competition.

If the NHL isn't there, I won't bother watching.

Countries like Germany, Switzerland, Slovenia, Latvia surely lose couple players.. but when their main core comes out of KHL/ countrys own league. they arent affected so much. Top countrys missing their top players actually evens out their chances to win medals.. And as an European countrys, hockey watchers in there doesnt give dam about SC..

NHL deciding not to go, actually might rise interest in hockey in those countrys, who's been outside of the "Top-6"

 

[stv11]

The discussion about amateur status has been moved to the history of hockey board. Please keep this thread on topic.

 

[kabidjan18]

Countries like Germany, Switzerland, Slovenia, Latvia surely lose couple players.. but when their main core comes out of KHL/ countrys own league. they arent affected so much. Top countrys missing their top players actually evens out their chances to win medals.. And as an European countrys, hockey watchers in there doesnt give dam about SC..

NHL deciding not to go, actually might rise interest in hockey in those countrys, who's been outside of the "Top-6"

Probably not. The idea is in itself noble but in practice unrealistic because teams of smaller countries still are not good enough.

 

[Snowsii]

Probably not. The idea is in itself noble but in practice unrealistic because teams of smaller countries still are not good enough.

You doesnt seem to understand, that when/if NHL players arent around, Canada & Usa teams are more like AHL teams.. (Same with Finland, Sweden etc, anyone who's core is in NHL)

Team like Germany doesnt have it's core coming out of NHL, so theyll benefit more than lose from this situation.. And Fairly certain, that they'll receive boost, when they know this situation.. Ans surely can complete with "top-6"

EDIT: WHC 2013 is a good exsample.. Swiss only lose 1 player, Sweden would have lost 8 players..

 

[holyprime]

Probably not. The idea is in itself noble but in practice unrealistic because teams of smaller countries still are not good enough.

I'm to 99% certain that Switzerland would've won gold at the WHC in 2013 if the Sedin's wouldn't have joined Sweden. They were completely unfair on the PP (just too good)

The playing field gets a lot more even if the best players aren't allowed to participate. Now in this example Sweden will always be the favourite, on paper, but much less so if both countries have to play without NHL-players. Not all small countries, but those with a good enough domestic league (provides the necessary player depth) do get a better chance at success.

 

[alko]

So, are those 1,000,000,000 people not going to watch on tv in 2018? Are they all going to attend events in 2022? Hell no. Most of the people at those games will be foreigners flying in and wealthier chinese people. It is expensive to attend Olympic events and the average joe in China will be watching on tv, just like the rest of us. Not sure how it will be different for them in 2022 as it will be in 2018.

Dont ask me, ask Garry B.

 

[kabidjan18]

You doesnt seem to understand, that when/if NHL players arent around, Canada & Usa teams are more like AHL teams.. (Same with Finland, Sweden etc, anyone who's core is in NHL)

Team like Germany doesnt have it's core coming out of NHL, so theyll benefit more than lose from this situation.. And Fairly certain, that they'll receive boost, when they know this situation.. Ans surely can complete with "top-6"

EDIT: WHC 2013 is a good exsample.. Swiss only lose 1 player, Sweden would have lost 8 players..

The Swiss got beaten by Austria and Latvia in 2015 and knocked out by the USA in round 1, then crashed again in 2016 after losing to Kazakhstan and Norway and missing the playoffs. Missed the playoffs in 2014 too after losing to Belarus. Lost to France in 2012 and didn't make the playoff that year either. Can we also take those results and extrapolate them? That's a much larger body of evidence. Furthermore, the Swiss would have lost 3 players that year not one, Josi, Diaz and Niedereitter.

You are the one who doesn't understand. I am relatively familiar with the rosters of the mid-majors. You aren't, you even listed Latvia as going to the Olympics. Teams like Norway, Germany and Slovenia will be lucky to have one or two players who make Team USA. The only team you mentioned with any potential is Switzerland, but even in the NLA the imports or "legios" are the cream of the crop, brought in from American to carry teams, and can be drawn from any number of leagues. Switzerland doesn't have a heavy import base outside of the NLA either in the same way the USA or Canada does. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.

I'm to 99% certain that Switzerland would've won gold at the WHC in 2013 if the Sedin's wouldn't have joined Sweden. They were completely unfair on the PP (just too good)

The playing field gets a lot more even if the best players aren't allowed to participate. Now in this example Sweden will always be the favourite, on paper, but much less so if both countries have to play without NHL-players. Not all small countries, but those with a good enough domestic league (provides the necessary player depth) do get a better chance at success.

Overlapping with the countries Snow named you're talking about Switzerland, and only Switzerland, where interest is already piqued. You're right that chances theoretically increase, but I would argue not nearly enough for new contenders.

Teams like Russia, Finland, Sweden should be fine to take the hit. With Switzerland it's really stretching it because of how localized the league game is. With the other countries, probably no more than just a good dream.

 

[TorstenFrings]

Teams like Russia, Finland, Sweden should be fine to take the hit. With Switzerland it's really stretching it because of how localized the league game is. With the other countries, probably no more than just a good dream.

What Canadians might not understand is that "lesser" hockey nations do not only care about winning it all, but also moral victories.
If Germany were to manage to lose to Canada by only one or two goals for example, people would be so there for just that. This country turned out amazing attendance and TV numbers for the IIHF WC 2010, when all the team really did was beat Switzerland, take Russia to a 1-2 and win absolutely zilch overall?

In terms of the gold medal, I do agree, the only obvious beneficiary there is Russia. They make good ground on Canada, Sweden and Finland.

Team like Germany doesnt have it's core coming out of NHL, so theyll benefit more than lose from this situation.. And Fairly certain, that they'll receive boost, when they know this situation.. Ans surely can complete with "top-6"

The problem with Germany is that they lose a relatively small number of impact players (only Draisaitl and Rieder), but so do the countries they may actually be able to compete with (Switzerland, Norway, Slovakia). The countries they would be making ground on (Russia, Sweden, Finland, Canada) will still be out of their reach even with their replacement players. A good surprise OT, a win over the USA or some moral victory alone could do some wonders though. People lap up these David vs. Goliath stories during the Olympics and they'll downplay that Goliath has to sit Crosby.

 

[Nino33]

What Canadians might not understand is that "lesser" hockey nations do not only care about winning it all, but also moral victories.

I get it, but I don't care for it.....almost always those "moral victories" are based on playing the most extremely boring hockey (and in hoping/praying for a lucky/fluky result); a lot of the time I see Canadians just don't understand" it's actually IMO Canadians understand just fine, we just don't like/want it

Also, and more important to me, I value the idea that "everybody plays everybody once in the round robin" as a WAY better system, and having lesser hockey nations involved is the primary reason this doesn't happen

 

[Snowsii]

The Swiss got beaten by Austria and Latvia in 2015 and knocked out by the USA in round 1, then crashed again in 2016 after losing to Kazakhstan and Norway and missing the playoffs. Missed the playoffs in 2014 too after losing to Belarus. Lost to France in 2012 and didn't make the playoff that year either. Can we also take those results and extrapolate them? That's a much larger body of evidence. Furthermore, the Swiss would have lost 3 players that year not one, Josi, Diaz and Niedereitter.

First of all, Diaz isnt even on that team.. (According to Wikipedia) But yeah.. Niederreiter were playing in AHL, so two players.

You are the one who doesn't understand. I am relatively familiar with the rosters of the mid-majors. You aren't, you even listed Latvia as going to the Olympics. Teams like Norway, Germany and Slovenia will be lucky to have one or two players who make Team USA. The only team you mentioned with any potential is Switzerland, but even in the NLA the imports or "legios" are the cream of the crop, brought in from American to carry teams, and can be drawn from any number of leagues. Switzerland doesn't have a heavy import base outside of the NLA either in the same way the USA or Canada does. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.

No.. i never listed them going to Olympics. Teams like Norway, Germany and Slovenia would be indeed lucky to have even one player who would fit team USA in under normal situation.. But if you're really thinking they would only have 1-2 who fits, if nhlers are taken out.. Then you really dont know those leagues, or are just plain arrogant.. You know there's good leagues in Europe also? NLA, Sel, Liiga etc..

Teams like Russia, Finland, Sweden should be fine to take the hit. With Switzerland it's really stretching it because of how localized the league game is. With the other countries, probably no more than just a good dream.

Russia is the only one, who would truly be fine.

 

[kabidjan18]

First of all, Diaz isnt even on that team.. (According to Wikipedia) But yeah.. Niederreiter were playing in AHL, so two players.

Three
http://www.iihf.com/competition/352/teams/SUI.html

No.. i never listed them going to Olympics.

This is an Olympics thread and you were talking about a possible upside of NHL withdrawal from the 2018 Olympics.

Teams like Norway, Germany and Slovenia would be indeed lucky to have even one player who would fit team USA in under normal situation.. But if you're really thinking they would only have 1-2 who fits, if nhlers are taken out.. Then you really dont know those leagues, or are just plain arrogant.. You know there's good leagues in Europe also? NLA, Sel, Liiga etc..

Ok, so now I know that you don't know a thing about Norway or Germany or Slovenia.

Let's start by defining some parameters you may not be aware of (you seem not to be aware of). Team USA and Team Canada would be made up largely of what Europeans call imports or people in Germanic speaking countries call "legios". They are paid more than the average players in the leagues, and are commonly some of the best players in the league. The KHL import limit is 6 for Russian teams and all but 4 for non-Russian teams, the SHL limit I think is 6, the Liiga limit I believe is also 6, the NLA limit is 6, the DEL limit is 13, the EBEL limit is complicated because there's the point system but it works to around 10. I'm a little fuzzy on a few of the numbers but I could look them up if necessary.

Let's start with Norway. It's becoming more and more well accepted that as Denmark has risen they've declined. They were never as powerful as you probably believe they are but back in the day they were better, Per Age Skroder was a favorite of mine. They qualified because they truly had an awful group. Anyways, let's get to who from Norway would make a Team USA or Team Canada roster. Maybe Thoresen. That's it. He has the stats to maybe be a low line forward but I've never really liked his playing style. Maybe Mathis Olimb in past years but not anymore, he's 31 now which is crazy because to me he'll always be like 26. Anyways, prospects have really been bombing around there. Most the team comes from the terrible local league or from the second Swedish league, Allsvenskan. They had a couple prospects move to Allsvenskan from the local league last summer but they basically all bombed except for the 24 year old Thomas Valkvae Olsen, the biggest disappointment being Jorgen Karterud. The SHL players they have Olimb bros aside are mediocre to not very good. No big prospects coming up soon, maybe Markus Soberg but that's it. The SHL players they have are bottom 6/mid 6 guys, same with the two or three Liiga players they have, the rest are aforementioned. Is that anywhere near a team filled with Euro Imports? You do the logic. I was fairly unimpressed last time they came to Graz, and Thoresen and Tollefsen will only get older.

Slovenia. Slovenian hockey is about to go off the deep end after this Olympics. They had a golden generation by their own fan's admissions but haven't been able to replenish talent in the least. They have 4 KHLers, Jeglic, Ticar, Sabolic, and Mursak. Sabolic would make a Team USA or Team Canada. The others are pretty run of the mill KHL imports, very solid players and exceptionally dangerous in mid-major play. Against top imports from the USA or Canada though? Ask the Slovenians yourself, see how they respond. On paper their defense is an atrocity to humanity. In practice they're not nearly as bad as they would seem on paper because it's always the same guys they have pretty good chemistry. Ales Kranjc is getting up there in age and game though, and Mitja Robar in age but not yet in game. Even Gregorc wouldn't be even a thought for contending for a Team USA or Team Canada spot. Rest of the offense is in their prime, except the aging Rodman brothers. Urbas is pretty good as an EBEL guy, but that's obviously not a comparable accomplishment. Verlic is a big body, if only he also was good at playing hockey. They usually have an overwhelmingly good top 6 for mid-major games so they need not worry about the lack of depth, however, their top 6 would have nothing on Canada or the USA.

Germany is the closest because they have the DEL, a solid league. Problem with the DEL though is because the clubs are rich they buy a lot of legios, 13, and all very high quality legios. That's been a problem for them developing youth and playing them at the next level. The DEL is definitely a step under Liiga and the NLA, which are a step under the SHL which is again a step under the KHL. Problem for them is that they really don't have a diversified export base, only Felix Schutz really. I'm not sure how many DEL imports will be in Team USA or Team Canada but likely not many. Now, gun to my head, who wins between American or Canadian DEL imports and top German DEL players? I'd maybe pick the Germans. Including imports from the KHL, NLA, SHL, Liiga, and top unsigned AHL players though? Not likely.

Russia is the only one, who would truly be fine.

Depends on how you define "fine". Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic wouldn't lose their relative positioning because of their strong local league systems and export bases.

 

[FiLe]

The KHL import limit is 6 for Russian teams and all but 4 for non-Russian teams, the SHL limit I think is 6, the Liiga limit I believe is also 6, the NLA limit is 6, the DEL limit is 13, the EBEL limit is complicated because there's the point system but it works to around 10. I'm a little fuzzy on a few of the numbers but I could look them up if necessary.

I've no comment on the rest of the argument, but the bolded ones are wrong.

KHL has a limit of five foreign players for Russian teams. However, it is *inverse* for the non-Russian teams. They have a minimum of five domestic players in the lineup (as in five Finns for Jokerit, five Slovaks for Slovan, etc), the rest can be foreigners.

Liiga has no foreign player limits whatsoever. Been that way since 2013.

 

[Jablkon]

I've never before seen Bettman described as a guy who is viewed positively in North America. He has long been reviled in Canada, and even in USA where the NHL is often ignored he was long the default answer for worst commissioner in sports. He seems to have some popularity among younger fans, but that's probably because they have no basis for comparison (for him or more significantly for how the NHL was) since he has been commissioner for so long.

I guess he probably didnt make any major fails for league in last 10 years and NHL has been doing really well. He wont be favourite of people who see bigger picture in international hockey unless he changes his presentation in media and start explaining things more imo. I personally dont like when I dont know what kind of tourney and schedule is at place. But this might worth seperate thread and I guess this discussion will be too much heated.

 

[Eye of Ra]

For Sweden, its better with no NHLers.

With NHLers it will end up being a huge disaster since Grönborg is a typical swedish sosse-coach. He would have choose Kruger (!), Loui, Strålman, Hjalmarsson, Kronwall, Hörnqvist. Hagelin and Landeskog to play for this team. We would lose in quarter final 100 % and play a boring style.

Sedin - Sedin - Loui
Hagelin - Zetterberg - Hörnqvist
Landeskog - Bäckström - Forsberg
Silfverberg - Kruger - Steen

Strålman - Hedman
Ekholm - Karlsson
Hjalmarsson - Kronwall

Thats how the team would have look like. Its painful to watch that lineup. Sedins and Loui are finished at highest level. Players like Landeskog, Kruger, Hagelin and Hörnqvist are lacking the skills to play in a tournament like this. Strålman, Hjalmarsson and Kronwall are not better than Klefbom, Lindholm etc at this point, but swedish coaches will never understand this type of stuff, they always choose the veterans, non-physical grinders and the "famous" players.

How the team should have look like (if sweden had a normal coach for just once):

Arvidsson - Wennberg - Forsberg
Rakell - Bäckström - Silfberberg
Steen - Zetterberg - Nylander
Johansson - Backlund - E.Lindholm

Ekholm - Hedman
Klefbom - Karlsson
OEL - Lindholm

 

[DoyleG]

Dont ask me, ask Garry B.

As it is, Bettman is going to wind up like a lot of international businesses that attempted to set up shop in China.

The name brand means nothing if you try and run the shop yourself.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Granlund-Koivu-Rantanen
Laine-Barkov-Aho
Lehkonen-Filppula-Teräväinen
Jokinen-Haula-Armia

Määttä-Ristolainen
Lindell-Vatanen
Lepistö-Hietanen

Rinne
Rask
Koskinen/Saros

That's how I would have it if NHL came.