OJHL and USHL
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DrJenniferHanson
Cursed By A Gypsy
Polished skill difference is rather large.
The difference is the echelon/age of players each league is privy to.
In general, the USHL grabs nearly all the best Americans who don't embark on the CHL route. The USHL in many years is comparable in collective talent level to the QMJHL -- the Q just produces more top 5-10 picks, but the two leagues are often even after that.
The OJHL is more comparable to the GOJHL/BCHL in talent level than to the USHL. The USHL is a bit higher in the generic areas of the game -- pace, physicality, etc. Both leagues are effective at what they're designed to: develop under an academically-friendly, geographically-constrained environment while keeping options open.
That said, the OJHL sometimes showcases players with more 'raw talent' than the USHL offers. However, these players are almost always playing as 15-year-olds in a short stint before they take off at 16/17 to greener pastures. Whereas, the USHL is the destination through Age 18 for NCAA-bound prospects, thus more polished while playing in the USHL.
In terms of quality, I'd rank the leagues as:
(1)OHL/(2)WHL
(3)QMJHL/(4)USHL
(5)BCHL/(6)OJHL/(7)GOJHL
(8)NAHL/(9)CCHL/(10)AJHL
The difference is the echelon/age of players each league is privy to.
In general, the USHL grabs nearly all the best Americans who don't embark on the CHL route. The USHL in many years is comparable in collective talent level to the QMJHL -- the Q just produces more top 5-10 picks, but the two leagues are often even after that.
The OJHL is more comparable to the GOJHL/BCHL in talent level than to the USHL. The USHL is a bit higher in the generic areas of the game -- pace, physicality, etc. Both leagues are effective at what they're designed to: develop under an academically-friendly, geographically-constrained environment while keeping options open.
That said, the OJHL sometimes showcases players with more 'raw talent' than the USHL offers. However, these players are almost always playing as 15-year-olds in a short stint before they take off at 16/17 to greener pastures. Whereas, the USHL is the destination through Age 18 for NCAA-bound prospects, thus more polished while playing in the USHL.
In terms of quality, I'd rank the leagues as:
(1)OHL/(2)WHL
(3)QMJHL/(4)USHL
(5)BCHL/(6)OJHL/(7)GOJHL
(8)NAHL/(9)CCHL/(10)AJHL
Lol.....Gojhl is Jr B and not close in overall talent to leagues mentioned.
DrJenniferHanson
Cursed By A Gypsy
I should've switched the GOJHL/AJHL, but there's a lot more grey area between JrA/JrB in Ontario than you're letting on, IMO.
OHL/WHL
QMJHL/USHL
BCHL/OJHL/AJHL
GOJHL/NAHL/CCHL
I'm not the only one who'd rank them similarly.
http://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-developmental-ice-hockey-leagues-north-america/
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Haha spoken like someone who has no concept of the raw volume of talent that there is in Mid / Western/ Southern Ontario. While the very top end (NHL calibre prospects) is not necessarily there to the same degree, the overall level of play in the GOJHL is Junior A in all but name.
Lol even Junior C in that region is underrated, full of kids that produced in B and A that either A. were lured back by money, B could no longer handle the time commitment, C were tempted by the extra over-age year or any combination of those.
Perceptions of lower level junior founded by the reality in other areas do not apply in southern Ontario, period. There are simply too many good young hockey players and once you get passed the OHL lines start to blur.
I have watched lots of GOJHL games, I agree there is good talent but the depth top to bottom not the same as either the OJHL or CCHL. Way too many teams to be considered Jr A. If you took that area and put 8-12 teams at Jr A then it would be a good league top to bottom that would then compete with the top leagues in Canada.
My apologies, the "Lol.. not even close" rubbed me the wrong way, way too many people with the "Junior B? lulz thats for goons me and my beerleague buddies could take em" attitude.
And yeah I would agree to that, though not at 8-12. If they somehow managed to cut that far down and some how managed to retain and redistribute the best players from now the defunct teams among the remaining... That league would be scary, likely the best non CHL junior league in the country. Now I know that would never happen, players would leave because there isn't enough ice ice time to go around.
But yeah depth wise there are certainly bottom feeders that bring the overall talent level down. If they were drop maybe three bottom feeders from each conference leaving an 18 team league it would be without a doubt in the conversation with the top Junior A leagues.
Currently I'd say that the gap between the GOJHL and OJHL is smaller than that between the GOJHL and other Junior B leagues in the province- EOJHL, Thunder Bay, etc.
DrJenniferHanson
Cursed By A Gypsy
I'm not well-versed enough with the NAHL to know, but you're chances of making a team as a FA in open tryout slightly increase as you delve down each peg. The vast majority of teams in any league have the bulk of their roster set in stone with a few spots to fight for. Typically, if the coach hasn't expressed much interest prior to tryout, you're facing a herculean uphill climb. But it has and can be done. Your best bet is usually going with the organization that appears to think highest of you. Always keep options open and have a reliable Plan B. Another suggestion of mine would be to research organizational need of each team you're considering. So much of it comes down to a numbers game than play in try-out, so research the departures, returnees and potential newbies (and potential politics!) of your position for each team. Make mock depth charts of your position from each team, and narrow it from there to which players you're confident you can beat. If you're having trouble with this, ask around for projected depth charts on appropriate team/league forums online. Obviously, don't state your status as a prospective player when doing so in case coaches/GMs are reading.
ETA: If you have a tryout upcoming, I'm guessing you're fighting for a 4th line/3rd pairing spot. Coaches are looking for the most reliable defensive players left in those spots, so hone your defensive zone skills. Moreover, I think aggression and assertiveness are huge. You have to find a way to consistently drive the play to get noticed. Be vocal, take every calculated gamble, be assertive. You have nothing to lose if you're not expected to make the team, so gamble as much as you ever have (with the obvious caveat it's a smart play). You'll have to take risks because you're only making the team if you really stand out (hence, the uphill battle). And portraying the utmost character goes without saying. Good luck.
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I see you ranked USHL and LHJMQ/QMJHL with each other. Whys that? I was always under the impression that ohl> qmjhl> whl> ushl..
DrJenniferHanson
Cursed By A Gypsy
WHL is a phenomenal league -- same level as OHL, just different style. If you go to each draft year's Wikipedia page, there should be a list of how many players came from each league. OHL & WHL top it each year. For 3rd, the USHL & QMJHL seem to alternate. The one advantage the Q has over the U is definitely historically found with Top-10 picks and bluechippers (Crosby, MacKinnon, etc.). But the U often has the same or more players drafted than the Q. This is a cherry-picked small sample size, but not much else to go off: Cape Breton and Sioux City are both at Junior World Cup, and Sioux City looked better through yesterday (I haven't checked today yet).
The USHL is a misnomer. It represents largely the midwest US, not the whole country, and is an overstated and at times, overrated league. The players are young and generally come from talent pools in the US (Tier 1 "elite" league) that have one thing in common--lots of $$$. BTW, the eastern US would function just fine as far as Prep and other leagues getting kids to the NCAA if the USHL didn't even exist.
Having seen Major Junior, USHL, NAHL, CCHL and BCHL games, I couldn't rate the USHL on par with any major junior league. In fact, there are a LOT of BCHL teams that would dominate most of the USHL. it just doesn't impress me much. IMO, it's somewhere between the OJHL and the BCHL.
Having seen Major Junior, USHL, NAHL, CCHL and BCHL games, I couldn't rate the USHL on par with any major junior league. In fact, there are a LOT of BCHL teams that would dominate most of the USHL. it just doesn't impress me much. IMO, it's somewhere between the OJHL and the BCHL.
Quite a harsh review.. however, I have to agree with you. T1EHL is close to 15 grand for season fees here in Chicago. Plus all the other workout fees they try to get you to pay for. I always have had the opinion that if youre not rich you wont make it far but from seeing other leagues ive noticed its mainly just us hockey thats ridiculously priced. Lol +1 to America for making it close to 150 grand to play 8 years of "good" hockey. My AA team beat 6/8 "elite" AAA teams we played last year. AAA in the us is mostly a money grab imo. Dont get me wrong, some teams are definitely great but a majority in the us only care about money.
thats the same here in Canada, at least here some A players are better then AAA, all AAA is, is a bunch of rich kids, at least thats what it is here
For whatever it's worth on the GOJHL argument, a team that finished in the bottom half of the USPHL Premier last year (PAL Jr Islanders) played exhibitions in Caledonia, Ft. Erie, and Pelham just a week ago and won those games 9-0, 11-1, and 9-0. All teams involved featured a number of tryouts, so it's not exactly a fair assessment, but it's a bit telling. Games would probably be a bit closer with full rosters obviously. I think if anything it says that the USPHL is underrated at this point. (NHL draft: 2 USPHL-Premier picks, 1 NAHL pick, 0 GOJHL picks).
I forget which CCHL team it was, but Jersey Hitmen of the USPHL just beat one of them 6-2 in an exhibition the other day.
The idea of the USHL getting dominated by BCHL teams is a joke, and just proof of someone who isn't watching these leagues. USHL usually doesn't produce the top-end talent, but has a wealth of depth and constantly pumps out NHL-caliber 2nd-4th line forwards and bottom 4 defensemen. In terms of depth, I've even heard scouts say they think the USHL is ahead of the QMJHL at this point. It's obviously OHL/WHL at the top right now, and QMJHL/USHL right below them.
Just so you know: 51 draft picks in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft played in the USHL at some point. 35 players there in the 2013-2014 season, if you include the 4 guys who went to the NCAA a year early it makes 39 picks who went the USHL route. There were 41 selections out of the OHL, 37 out of the WHL, and 17 from the QMJHL.
So, 35 players drafted out of the USHL compared to 17 from the Q and just 5 from the BCHL? But BCHL teams would dominate USHL teams? Makes sense. Oh and by the way, 20 of those USHL picks were taken before the first BCHL selection was made (Danton Heinen/Surrey-116th overall).
Btw, if the comeback is that the USNTDP carries USHL draft picks, 11 of those first 20 USHL picks were non-USNTDP players.
In fact, through the first 4 rounds of the draft there were 8 QMJHL picks and 12 non-USNTDP USHL picks (21 overall).
Please quit underestimating the USHL and making wild claims that BCHL teams could DOMINATE USHL teams. It's honestly embarrassing and shows you don't know what you're talking about. If the people whose jobs it is to scout these players felt the same way, you wouldn't see this many USHL draft picks and only 5 BCHL picks.
Oh, and since I didn't even mention the OJHL yet, they had 4 players drafted into the NHL. Compare 35 (or 39, or 51) to 4.
I forget which CCHL team it was, but Jersey Hitmen of the USPHL just beat one of them 6-2 in an exhibition the other day.
The idea of the USHL getting dominated by BCHL teams is a joke, and just proof of someone who isn't watching these leagues. USHL usually doesn't produce the top-end talent, but has a wealth of depth and constantly pumps out NHL-caliber 2nd-4th line forwards and bottom 4 defensemen. In terms of depth, I've even heard scouts say they think the USHL is ahead of the QMJHL at this point. It's obviously OHL/WHL at the top right now, and QMJHL/USHL right below them.
Just so you know: 51 draft picks in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft played in the USHL at some point. 35 players there in the 2013-2014 season, if you include the 4 guys who went to the NCAA a year early it makes 39 picks who went the USHL route. There were 41 selections out of the OHL, 37 out of the WHL, and 17 from the QMJHL.
So, 35 players drafted out of the USHL compared to 17 from the Q and just 5 from the BCHL? But BCHL teams would dominate USHL teams? Makes sense. Oh and by the way, 20 of those USHL picks were taken before the first BCHL selection was made (Danton Heinen/Surrey-116th overall).
Btw, if the comeback is that the USNTDP carries USHL draft picks, 11 of those first 20 USHL picks were non-USNTDP players.
In fact, through the first 4 rounds of the draft there were 8 QMJHL picks and 12 non-USNTDP USHL picks (21 overall).
Please quit underestimating the USHL and making wild claims that BCHL teams could DOMINATE USHL teams. It's honestly embarrassing and shows you don't know what you're talking about. If the people whose jobs it is to scout these players felt the same way, you wouldn't see this many USHL draft picks and only 5 BCHL picks.
Oh, and since I didn't even mention the OJHL yet, they had 4 players drafted into the NHL. Compare 35 (or 39, or 51) to 4.
So
draft picks = better league?
or
draft picks = better network?
or
draft picks = more $$$?
or
draft picks = ????,
Clearly you've had a BIG dose of the koolaide. Good for you. Wild claims? No. Simply stating the obvious. I've seen both, up close, a lot, and draft or no draft, its at least 50/50 BCHL versus USHL. Draft picks are great. Team play is a better measure. IMO, it can go both ways and there are definitely a lot of BCHL/USHL games that would go the way of the BCHL. The USHL just isn't that physical of a league. Maybe that's why its being compared to the Q. At times, the hockey I've seen there has been abysmal. I'm not convinced its really out to produce that anyway, per your arguments. (FWIW, I've seen NAHL games that are better than USHL contests. There are teams in that league that could also beat USHL teams regularly. The CCHL as well. The CCHL has produced some VERY good teams, some of which would give a fair number of major junior squads a whole lot of trouble)
The entire hockey landscape is far, far too subjective. There is a reason for that--again...$$ and who you know. Major Junior is nothing more than an extension of the old boys network that is the NHL. It's a big club...and most people aint' in it. It isn't always the best hockey either. There are very bad teams there too. Lotsa draft picks. LOTSA draft picks. Lotsa mediocrity afterward. Lotsa busts too. The list is long, very long. It's all a money grab designed to keep itself going.
Comparing leagues is kind of silly really. It shouldn't be so difficult. They could all just play each other. That would settle the matter and make for a better sport (and player development) IMHO. The folks in charge don't want that though--it would make the competition more intense and their little corners of the world less valuable (and relevant.)
So you're judging the USHL vs BCHL debate on which league has better teamwork? Not which produces the better talent? Okay..let's start saying the SHL is better than the NHL now too. Since the top USHL talent plays for the NTDP (no debating that), how come they're almost never one of the top teams in the league? The other teams are more physical, have better teamwork, etc. You're just flat out wrong.
I'm the one drinking the Kool-Aid by thinking that 20+ NHL draft picks in the first four rounds this year out of the USHL are all money and connections. Makes sense that NHL franchises' scouts and GMs, whose literal job it is to make these picks for the betterment of the overall program, are willing to throw away top draft picks over money and connections.
I have an uncle who's a casual hockey fan who always says "if the games are even, I couldn't tell the difference between good hockey and bad hockey". Pretty much the vibe I'm getting from your saying the BCHL is better hockey than the USHL. If you know what you're watching, and can understand the difference between good and bad hockey, the USHL is far superior.
NHL draft picks is obviously not a tell-all stat that defines which league is the best, but it's useful in assessing that the USHL is considered a Major Junior league because it's just that...Major Junior hockey. It's not Junior A.
I'd be more curious to see the top BCHL and OJHL teams playing against the top USPHL teams. OJHL told their teams they weren't allowed to play exhibitions against the USPHL though. Wonder why.
I'm the one drinking the Kool-Aid by thinking that 20+ NHL draft picks in the first four rounds this year out of the USHL are all money and connections. Makes sense that NHL franchises' scouts and GMs, whose literal job it is to make these picks for the betterment of the overall program, are willing to throw away top draft picks over money and connections.
I have an uncle who's a casual hockey fan who always says "if the games are even, I couldn't tell the difference between good hockey and bad hockey". Pretty much the vibe I'm getting from your saying the BCHL is better hockey than the USHL. If you know what you're watching, and can understand the difference between good and bad hockey, the USHL is far superior.
NHL draft picks is obviously not a tell-all stat that defines which league is the best, but it's useful in assessing that the USHL is considered a Major Junior league because it's just that...Major Junior hockey. It's not Junior A.
I'd be more curious to see the top BCHL and OJHL teams playing against the top USPHL teams. OJHL told their teams they weren't allowed to play exhibitions against the USPHL though. Wonder why.
Surprised you put the AJHL so low. I follow CIS hockey very closely (especially in Ontario), and spend a lot of time looking at a variety of players who are recruited to play in the league. Many come directly from Major Junior, many have played major junior and end up being released to TierII/Junior B, and some directly from TierII/Junior B.
From what I have seen, the BCHL would be the top TierII in Canada, but the AJHL would be second. Both would be higher than the OJHL, in terms of how difficult it seems to be to put up points.
The team I follow this year just recruited a player from BC who has played in all three leagues for example:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=153029
Generally, I have seen the players who play in the GOJHL/OJHL who move out West see a decrease in the points when they go to the AJHL, and lower if they move to the BCHL.
TheLastShift
Canada
- Nov 14, 2007
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sorry if im posting this in the wrong spot but i know some OHL, WHL, etc have their Jr A clubs as their development club so players that dont make theor major junior they get sent down there or do Major Junior clubs even do that anymore with Jr A clubs
