Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season VI: It's no longer the off-season, but the thread isn't done yet

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Bradley Zimmer has been a tantalizing talent since coming up with the Guardians in 2017. However, the rangy, 6-foot-5 Zimmer hasn't been able to stay healthy since showing so much promise early in his career.

The 29-year-old missed most of three seasons with an assortment of injuries and surgeries before coming back in 2021 and playing in 99 games -- his most since '17.
Zimmer batted .237 with eight homers and 35 RBI last season.

He was one several players who competed for one of the Guardians' open corner outfield positions, but he was beaten out by rookie Steven Kwan. Cleveland decided to move Zimmer for pitching depth.

Zimmer had spent his entire career with Cleveland, which selected him with the No. 21 overall pick in the 2014 draft.


The 26-year-old Castro has been with Toronto and Detroit. He split last season between Triple-A Buffalo and Toronto, going 1-2 with a 4.74 ERA and one save in 25 games.

The Venezuelan, who has one minor league option remaining, began his career in the Tigers' system in 2012. He opened the season on Buffalo's Triple-A roster and will be added to Cleveland's active roster Saturday in Kansas City.
 
.. So the MLB broadcast for the Reds-Braves game tonight has Votto mic'd up .. Except Votto has an earpiece too and the broadcast team is actually having a back and forth conversation with him through the inning as Votto is playing 1st ..

He's got Albies on base, and he's bouncing back and forth covering the bag

... I mean that seems like it might be distracting?
 
Why zimmer? He is a plug. Apparently good defense. I sure hope we dont see him much other than blow outs playing CF.
Last year Zimmer had a better bWar and fWar than Tapia despite roughly 180 less plate appearances, their dWar was both 0.3 despite Zimmer playing more than half his innings in CF while Tapia was confined to the corners.

Zimmer had a better wRC+ and a better OPS+ and despite speed being arguably Tapia's biggest strength, Zimmer is even faster.

Is he a strikeout machine? 100% but his bat is clearly an interesting project and even without him improving, he's the best option for a 4 OF on the roster right now.
 
Last year Zimmer had a better bWar and fWar than Tapia despite roughly 180 less plate appearances, their dWar was both 0.3 despite Zimmer playing more than half his innings in CF while Tapia was confined to the corners.

Zimmer had a better wRC+ and a better OPS+ and despite speed being arguably Tapia's biggest strength, Zimmer is even faster.

Is he a strikeout machine? 100% but his bat is clearly an interesting project and even without him improving, he's the best option for a 4 OF on the roster right now.

Yeah, I'd be happy if they just replace Collins with Zimmer on the roster. It's interesting that they've loaded the bench with former top prospects who haven't panned out... they're obviously banking on natural talent and hoping they can unlock some untapped potential. They're all reasonable bench players, but it could make a huge difference if they can even just fix one of them.
 
.. So the MLB broadcast for the Reds-Braves game tonight has Votto mic'd up .. Except Votto has an earpiece too and the broadcast team is actually having a back and forth conversation with him through the inning as Votto is playing 1st ..

He's got Albies on base, and he's bouncing back and forth covering the bag

... I mean that seems like it might be distracting?

Thought the same thing. I liked it and the insight provided, as well as the little interactions throughout we normally would never hear or see otherwise (ie. telling the ump to give him space near the line).

But I wouldn't want it to be a recurring thing throughout the season. There's bound to be a play missed or botched up while trying to chat. Even Votto said all that was going on plus talking was distracting. Luckily it was a non-active inning for him.
 
Um...okay, then. They're really going all-in on this left hander thing.


Okay, apply that logic, then. You guys love to talk stats, but none of you have ever been able to apply it. I've been applying it for 30 years and have got real good at it, but relievers? Nope. Feels like a crap shoot. You might get one good one sticking around for a few years or so, but those are the ones that always run off and get big contracts. So I gave up.

But now it's your turn. Apply it. Pick your "elite" starters and let's see how they perform by the end of the year.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Why do you need me to pick elite starters in a conversation about relievers?
 
Relievers are not voodo, they just pitch far less innings than starters, so there is more variability to their numbers due the lower sample size. The high leverage ones are also extremely undervalued in advanced stats (at least in public ones).

The smart/successful teams have been stocking up on elite BP arms for a few years now for a reason.

Relievers are voodoo because of the small sample size/variability. It's hard to predict most pen arms because they don't have the track record within a season/overall to draw strong conclusions from and because there's not a magic qualitative bullet to look for since most relievers are misfit toys to begin with (because otherwise they'd be starters). Just look at the guys who have exploded out of nowhere for the Jays to have big years or couple of years in the pen before vanishing into the ether from whence they came. Guys like Joe Biagini, Dominic Leone, Steve Delabar, Aquilino Lopez, Jesse Carlson, Shawn Camp, Jeremy Accardo, etc.

The problem with relievers is that it's hard to stock up on elite arms. More often than not the big reliever contracts given out in off-seasons end up being massive disappointments because you never know when whatever edge that a guy evaporates and he goes full pumpkin. And you never know when some random schmo like Jordan Romano is going to suddenly click and turn into a dominating pen arm that you can ride until he runs out of pixie dust.
 
I'm good with the trade. Castro was mostly a nothing-burger reliever in terms of results but he had some intriguing underlying stats that suggest he's got more to give. But Zimmer is an intriguing package. I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to say "just stop striking out" to him and have it stick, but he offers a skills package that provides a lot of potential value to the club. Since he's out of options I wonder who gets bumped to make room for him. Seems like it means the Jays are going to start the season with 5 OF as well because I can't see them dumping Tapia already.
 
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I like the move for Zimmer. The guy has great speed and defense. There's some untapped potential with his bat too, if the guy ever figures out how to cut down on the strikeouts, he could be a good guy off the bench. I like him more than Tapia or Collins, that's for sure. The Jays have found ways to fix players like Zimmer, hopefully that happens again. Remember how raw Teo was coming over?
 
Relievers are voodoo because of the small sample size/variability. It's hard to predict most pen arms because they don't have the track record within a season/overall to draw strong conclusions from and because there's not a magic qualitative bullet to look for since most relievers are misfit toys to begin with (because otherwise they'd be starters). Just look at the guys who have exploded out of nowhere for the Jays to have big years or couple of years in the pen before vanishing into the ether from whence they came. Guys like Joe Biagini, Dominic Leone, Steve Delabar, Aquilino Lopez, Jesse Carlson, Shawn Camp, Jeremy Accardo, etc.

The problem with relievers is that it's hard to stock up on elite arms. More often than not the big reliever contracts given out in off-seasons end up being massive disappointments because you never know when whatever edge that a guy evaporates and he goes full pumpkin. And you never know when some random schmo like Jordan Romano is going to suddenly click and turn into a dominating pen arm that you can ride until he runs out of pixie dust.

Something can't be both voodoo and a small sample size issue. Those are mutually exclusive. Voodoo means irrational and unexplainable. Small sample sizes on the other hand simply lead to large variances in predictive analytics - something which is mathematically explainable and quite rational.

I don't think relievers are necessarily misfit toys, they simply have a different skillset. They may not have the durability of a starter, or haven't mastered a large enough variety of pitches. Or sometimes that's where the coach simply puts you out of need and that's where you end up - ie. Osuna or Chapman.

You mentioned a couple of mediocre BP arms that had a good small stretch, but that simply proves the point of a small sample size leading to large variance. Those guys were never expected to be much, and simply had a good short stretch, and over a large enough sample size, their true talent level came out. This happens with starters too btw - it's how Ray can go from a 6.5 ERA in 2020 to winning the CY Young in 2021. Or how Kicuchi can be an all-star in the first half of the season and then be completely out of the rotation in the 2nd half. Pitching just has higher variance than most skillsets in sports.

As for Romano, he's definitely not a fluke. I heard scouts talking about his stuff I think back in 2018 - how there was a Canadian reliever in our system who had closer stuff but couldn't stay healthy.

And yeah...you do have to spend to have a great pen, just like you do with all positions. If you want Liam Hendricks, you have to pay him. If you want Iglesias, you have to pay him too. Sign those guys, and you will have a quality pen. If you go cheap in those positions, like we have, then you better pray as hell that the variance gods shine on you for a year.
 
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Something can't be both voodoo and a small sample size issue. Those are mutually exclusive. Voodoo means irrational and unexplainable. Small sample sizes on the other hand simply lead to large variances in predictive analytics - something which is mathematically explainable and quite rational.
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It's mathematically rational, but analytically difficult to overcome. That's the voodoo. We know why it's hard to pin down anything about relievers, but that doesn't help in figuring out ways to overcome those limitations with repeatably successful results.

I don't think relievers are necessarily misfit toys, they simply have a different skillset. They may not have the durability of a starter, or haven't mastered a large enough variety of pitches. Or sometimes that's where the coach simply puts you out of need and that's where you end up - ie. Osuna or Chapman.

Those issues are what makes them misfit toys. If they weren't they'd be starters. But the have some hiccup or hitch in their skills. Maybe they lack durability. Or stamina. Or a pitch (or two). Or command. or have an arsenal that is quirky at first but can't survive a second trip through the lineup. Guys that slot into relief roles and never come out even though they could be starters are more often the exception rather than the rule (because most teams would obviously prefer a valuable asset be in the more valuable role of starting vs coming out of the pen for like 1/2 or less the # of innings.

You mentioned a couple of mediocre BP arms that had a good small stretch, but that simply proves the point of a small sample size leading to large variance. Those guys were never expected to be much, and simply had a good short stretch, and over a large enough sample size, their true talent level came out. This happens with starters too btw - it's how Ray can go from a 6.5 ERA in 2020 to winning the CY Young in 2021. Or how Kicuchi can be an all-star in the first half of the season and then be completely out of the rotation in the 2nd half. Pitching just has higher variance than most skillsets in sports.

Yes, but with starters this is a bad thing because if a guy has, say, 100 innings of value before he gets figured out or breaks down then as a starter that's less than a year whereas a decent pen arm can carve out at least a couple of seasons before his clock strikes midnight. So that's how the bullpen market works: There are too many jobs out there in bullpens around baseball to fill them with guys who are talented and stable, so you make due with guys who are performing and you worry about whether or not it will last after the fact. So accepting that has to be built into the approach you take to pen management. You have to live with the fact that you're choosing guys operating on a clock you can't see with a deadline you can't reliably predict. And that's the voodoo.

As for Romano, he's definitely not a fluke. I heard scouts talking about his stuff I think back in 2018 - how there was a Canadian reliever in our system who had closer stuff but couldn't stay healthy.

Fair enough. though the fact that he couldn't stay healthy is part of the voodoo as well. Because you can't predict with consistency whether or not a guy with recurrent health issues will get over them to become a dependable player or if he'll be the next Dustin McGowan.

And yeah...you do have to spend to have a great pen, just like you do with all positions. If you want Liam Hendricks, you have to pay him. If you want Iglesias, you have to pay him too. Sign those guys, and you will have a quality pen. If you go cheap in those positions, like we have, then you better pray as hell that the variance gods shine on you for a year.

Will you though?

Last year's top 10 reliever FA contracts (by total value):

1) Hendriks (White Sox) - all-star year. worth it.
2) Blake Treinen (Dodgers) -Great year. worth it.
3) Trevor May (Mets) - Solid year by results, peripherals suggest possible issues
4) Pedro Baez (Astros) - Got hurt. pitched <5 innings in MLB, plus <10 more in AAA.
5) Trevor Rosenthal (A's) - didn't pitch at all last season
7) Brad Hand (Nationals) - We saw how this worked. He was a gas can. And he wasn't even that good before the deal from the Nats.
8) Ken Giles (Mariners) - didn't pitch at all last season
9) Archie Bradley (Phillies) - was passable, but not great.
10) Kirby Yates (Blue Jays) - didn't pitch at all last season.

The same pattern happened in 2020 as well. and if I keep going I imagine it's much the same working back through the years. Yeah there are some signings that work out, but on balance you appear as likely or more likely to come to regret a big reliever signing than you are to love the results.

Obviously you're going to have to pay for the biggest and best guys. The problem is that there's little to stop those relievers from being nearly as volatile as the lesser ones. So you might be better off betting on a bunch of tier 2 or 3 guys giving you one or two breakouts than you are spending the money on one massive marquee talent who screws you over if he gets hurt or loses his mojo.
 
Hey that's a solid deal for Zimmer. Even if he is what he is that's at least someone who can defend CF with some speed. There is the off chance he breaks out to be a bit more as well. All for our 12th best reliever or something.
 
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Should be a really fun year. Some of the best talent in the game and more depth than we've had in ages. Definitely should be contending for the division title and then hopefully we're hot at the right time to go on a run in October. I know there's a tendency to wallow in loses and worry about lefties versus righties or the goalies or the bench depth, but the Leafs, Jays, and Raptors are all really good and really fun at the same time and fans can now pack those places in person. Enjoy it. Revel in it.
 
Legit question regarding the trade for Zimmer.

With the acquisition, that puts Toronto up to 5 active outfielders on their major league roster? Or where would Zimmer start?
 
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