Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season V: Baseball's back and so are blockbusters (Jays send 4 prospects to A's for 3B Matt Chapman)

[Bjindaho]

lol Ramirez is this year's Lindor. You guys want all-stars at every position. It's entirely unnecessary and SO not worth the cost. You can probably get some great pitching for just Kirk. Which is fine. Because Moreno.


That combo of names could probably net you at least 2 intriguing pitchers which is what the Jays actually need at this point. And that's kind of pointless because Pearson in the bullpen would address the very thing that caused the Jays to miss the playoffs last season: too many blown games in May.

If Cleveland asked for Moreno, Manoah and Martinez, they aren't accepting an offer without at least one of these guys.

As of right now, they are projected to finish 8 games out of a wildcard if they do nothing.

Of course, that assumes that every starter not named Bieber sucks, they add no one and their BP is a hot mess outside of Klase.

 

[ER89]

lol Ramirez is this year's Lindor. You guys want all-stars at every position. It's entirely unnecessary and SO not worth the cost. You can probably get some great pitching for just Kirk. Which is fine. Because Moreno.


That combo of names could probably net you at least 2 intriguing pitchers which is what the Jays actually need at this point. And that's kind of pointless because Pearson in the bullpen would address the very thing that caused the Jays to miss the playoffs last season: too many blown games in May.

of course you're going to take the stance of an improbable thing NOT happening and then when it doesn't happen you'll be right here to toot your own horn and say.... called it again.

 

[Griffin76]

Maybe it's because I've watched him more because he was on the west coast and value defense more than most but if his hip is back to 100% I think Chapman puts up a higher war than Ramirez this year.

I don't think it's extremely crazy to say that he could possibly have as big of an overall impact as Donaldson did for this team. I don't see an MVP season, especially with Guerrero as a teammate, but if he's healthy who knows what he can do.

 

[Bjindaho]

I don't think it's extremely crazy to say that he could possibly have as big of an overall impact as Donaldson did for this team. I don't see an MVP season, especially with Guerrero as a teammate, but if he's healthy who knows what he can do.

A slight bump to his best year and he's challenging (JD had a 147 high in Oakland, then 154 157 151 in Toronto).

Chapman had a 139 for comparison's sake.

 

[Bjindaho]

If Cincy is as bad off financially as they appear to be, Horowitz and Biggio might get you Votto and India.

 

[kb]

I don't think Pearson gets it done. Cleveland has pitching, what they need going forward is bats. That and as mentioned in the other thread he doesn't have much value.

Biggio + Kirk + Groshans + probably another prospect.

J-ram is a stud, and you have to pay to acquire studs.

Pearson only doesn't have value to some jays fans.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Pearson only doesn't have value to some jays fans.

He's missed the majority of the last two seasons with injury and sucked shit through a straw in the small time he was in the majors.

No team is falling over themselves to trade for Pearson.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[barilko05]

He's missed the majority of the last two seasons with injury and sucked shit through a straw in the small time he was in the majors.

No team is falling over themselves to trade for Pearson.

Teams with brains in the FO don't look at those things. They are looking at the big picture, and they see the guy that we saw a couple of years ago. Dominating with the upside to be a top 2 starter. Which is why I don't think Shatkins is gonna give up on him just yet. The potential is still there. But if he does get injured again this season we may be looking at another Aaron Sanchez. World beater with a glass body. If that's the case, then yeah...he's not worth the ink on a tryout contract. Time to cut bait. But...time will tell.

 

[kb]

Teams with brains in the FO don't look at those things. They are looking at the big picture, and they see the guy that we saw a couple of years ago. Dominating with the upside to be a top 2 starter. Which is why I don't think Shatkins is gonna give up on him just yet. The potential is still there. But if he does get injured again this season we may be looking at another Aaron Sanchez. World beater with a glass body. If that's the case, then yeah...he's not worth the ink on tryout contract. Time to cut bait. But...time will tell.

He was pitching with a sports hernia which he compensated for and caused all sorts of other issues..

It's basically clown level to say that he has no value.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Tough day for Cleveland sports lol.

Ramirez must see the writing on the wall. They did the exact same thing with Lindor.

 

[Discoverer]

He's missed the majority of the last two seasons with injury and sucked shit through a straw in the small time he was in the majors.

No team is falling over themselves to trade for Pearson.

Yeah, I would rather just hang onto him and risk his value dropping to nothing as opposed to trading him for peanuts. His ceiling, even as a reliever, is still worth gambling on.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Blitzkrug]

Angels finally realized they need some semblance of pitching to win games? Holy shit.

 

[kb]

Now if we get the first 2 year version of Biggio, which was roughly 5 war through 159 games or one season, that's not peanuts. He played all last year hurt and learning 3B.

Even if a healthy Biggio bounces back to 3-4 war, how much prospect capital will it cost to get an extra 2-3 war from JRam for only 2 seasons?

I get the desire to have him, but I am 100% fine starting off the year with Biggio and Espinal to spell him against tough lefties. I think the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard at some point.

 

[Scion]

No it isn't. FanGraphs gives them equal value and BR considers 2B 50% harder (or at least they did in 2017, which is the last year they give the adjustment for).

And you seem to miss that suddenly transitioning to a different position at the highest level is difficult

Jose Ramirez has played at 2B before, this isn't a new thing for him and you have still yet to explain how he is a downgrade on Cavan Biggio who has a career -2 OAA rating at 2B over his career.

 

[Scion]

lol Ramirez is this year's Lindor. You guys want all-stars at every position. It's entirely unnecessary and SO not worth the cost. You can probably get some great pitching for just Kirk. Which is fine. Because Moreno.


That combo of names could probably net you at least 2 intriguing pitchers which is what the Jays actually need at this point. And that's kind of pointless because Pearson in the bullpen would address the very thing that caused the Jays to miss the playoffs last season: too many blown games in May.

Jose Ramirez is the next Lindor based on what exactly? They are completely different players that occupy different positions on the field.

 

[Blitzkrug]

"Jose Ramirez f***ing sucks! I don't care he was worth almost 20 WAR over the last few years, he STINKS!"

This is going to look even more hilarious if Lindor can bounce back, which I think he will.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Toronto Blue Jays GM Atkins Talks Matt Chapman Trade & Amazing Clubhouse Reaction After He Pulled The Trigger

March 16, 2022

SPORTSNET

Watch the full media availability of Toronto Blue Jays GM Ross Atkins after he acquired Gold Glover Matt Chapman from the Oakland Athletics for 4 prospects, discusses what a great fit he'll be on this roster, how he views him as a big-time threat on both sides of the ball, and saying one of the highlights of his day was seeing the clubhouse reaction from the players after he announced the deal.

 

[Bjindaho]

Jose Ramirez has played at 2B before, this isn't a new thing for him and you have still yet to explain how he is a downgrade on Cavan Biggio who has a career -2 OAA rating at 2B over his career.

Ramirez has less career innings at 2B than he played at 3B last year. He hasn't played the position in 4 years (he was terrible in 16 games) and hasn't played it decently in 5 years.

Again, if we are going to upgrade the position (and I for one would like to see what the two guys in camp that are trying to win that job can do), why not get someone who plays 2B regularly (and who will still objectively cost less).

Put another way, is the upgrade worth trading something like Martinez, Pearson, and Tiedemann to you?

 

[ER89]

Now if we get the first 2 year version of Biggio, which was roughly 5 war through 159 games or one season, that's not peanuts. He played all last year hurt and learning 3B.

Even if a healthy Biggio bounces back to 3-4 war, how much prospect capital will it cost to get an extra 2-3 war from JRam for only 2 seasons?

I get the desire to have him, but I am 100% fine starting off the year with Biggio and Espinal to spell him against tough lefties. I think the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard at some point.

Don't quote me but I remember faintly that when AA was the GM he said something to the tune of; the law of diminishing returns is actually opposite in baseball where its much better to strengthen your strengths. Now this might be complete BS and I might be misremembering completely but was wondering if you or anyone else remember that interview.

 

[Bjindaho]

Don't quote me but I remember faintly that when AA was the GM he said something to the tune of; the law of diminishing returns is actually opposite in baseball where its much better to strengthen your strengths. Now this might be complete BS and I might be misremembering completely but was wondering if you or anyone else remember that interview.

When you are good, every ounce of value has a more meaningful impact.

The issue is that upgrading to Ramirez likely takes value off our roster (so we gain over Biggio, but lose in other spots).

The bigger issue is that there are legitimately positions we can upgrade more significantly AND for cheaper.

 

[Scion]

Ramirez has less career innings at 2B than he played at 3B last year. He hasn't played the position in 4 years (he was terrible in 16 games) and hasn't played it decently in 5 years.

Again, if we are going to upgrade the position (and I for one would like to see what the two guys in camp that are trying to win that job can do), why not get someone who plays 2B regularly (and who will still objectively cost less).

Put another way, is the upgrade worth trading something like Martinez, Pearson, and Tiedemann to you?

Lol at terrible in 16 games. The reason for getting Ramirez instead of someone else is that he is a top 5 position player, this isn't hard.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Ramirez has less career innings at 2B than he played at 3B last year. He hasn't played the position in 4 years (he was terrible in 16 games) and hasn't played it decently in 5 years.

Again, if we are going to upgrade the position (and I for one would like to see what the two guys in camp that are trying to win that job can do), why not get someone who plays 2B regularly (and who will still objectively cost less).

Put another way, is the upgrade worth trading something like Martinez, Pearson, and Tiedemann to you?

Yes, yes it is.

 

[Bjindaho]

Lol at terrible in 16 games. The reason for getting Ramirez instead of someone else is that he is a top 5 position player, this isn't hard.

We might be able to get Votto for nothing if we agree to pay him. His season last year was 1.8 better than our projected DH spot and that's on a team where there's no real incentive to ever let him face a righty (which he mashes).