Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[dredeye]

Hutch logged over 100 innings for the Tigers last year. I think he may be added SP depth. Stash him in AAA and hopefully he’s not needed.

I don’t mind him as a AAAA guy. We lacked this kind of depth so I’m glad to see a move like this. He was ok for us at times. Like you said hopefully he’s not needed but he’s a decent option if he is.

I like these kinds of signings. It's kind of like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, but I mean that in a positive way.

Agreed. Guys with a bit of a track record that have had some degree of success. We lacked proper depth last year and this is what was missing

 

[Ale Brew]

Dodgers have DFA’d Bauer.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[trellaine201]

His numbers look excellent. Why hasn’t he signed? Asking for too much $$? Aww I found out he had a bad second half last year.

 

[Ale Brew]

His numbers look excellent. Why hasn’t he signed? Asking for too much $$?

I think he missed all last year with injury, and the Cards just let him go.

Seems like a high upside, but maybe something with the medicals is alarming.

 

[phillipmike]

His numbers look excellent. Why hasn’t he signed? Asking for too much $$?

Too many walks and always hurt.

Didn’t pitch last year. Threw 4 innings in 2018, 3 innings in 2019 and 19 innings in 2020.

2021 was his only “relatively” healthy season with 72 innings in his career

 

[trellaine201]

Oh damn I see that now. 2021 was his last action.

 

[phillipmike]

Blair says Ross Atkins isn’t done wheeling and dealing. Says there are many teams that still need a middle infielder and keeps hearing the that the Jays are after Liam Hendriks. Blair says Espinal for Hendriks makes too much sense but doesn’t know if the Jays do this. Says the Jays still need help in the pen.

 

[dredeye]

Blair says Ross Atkins isn’t done wheeling and dealing. Says there are many teams that still need a middle infielder and keeps hearing the that the Jays are after Liam Hendriks. Blair says Espinal for Hendriks makes too much sense but doesn’t know if the Jays do this. Says the Jays still need help in the pen.

I'd be very hesitant to move Espinal. Especially in a deal like this. Is Whit a strong ss because otherwise we are in tough

 

[Dr.Funk]

I'd be very hesitant to move Espinal. Especially in a deal like this. Is Whit a strong ss because otherwise we are in tough

Whit has never played SS

 

[kb]

I'd be very hesitant to move Espinal. Especially in a deal like this. Is Whit a strong ss because otherwise we are in tough

I wonder if they think that Otto Lopez might be able to handle the Espinal role. Possibly more pop too, it will depend on his D.

 

[Ale Brew]

I wonder if they think that Otto Lopez might be able to handle the Espinal role. Possibly more pop too, it will depend on his D.

I don’t believe his D is terribly good. His defensive value comes from his ability to play multiple positions.

If they move Espy they could sign a backup who can play short. Not sure he’s ready to accept a bench role, but Andrelton Simmons is still available.

 

[phillipmike]

I'd be very hesitant to move Espinal. Especially in a deal like this. Is Whit a strong ss because otherwise we are in tough

I would fairly easily. I really like Espinal and earlier in the off-season I thought the same way as you did.

Espinal will be a good player over his years of control but this is your window and to get a top 5 pen arm for an average hitting middle infielder who only has value at 2B and backup SS for you at the moment is well worth it.

Guys like Espinal grow on trees, guys like Hendriks don’t. Considering you already have Merrifield, Biggio and Lopez, the decision is much easier. And if they all suck, 2B is the easiest position to fill on the diamond by a long shot.

But you make the trade, sign any backup free agent SS as a stop gap;

Depth Charts - Free Agents | FanGraphs Baseball

Free Agents depth charts updated daily with projections

www.fangraphs.com

And by late spring, Barger is ready and he plays a very good SS if you need him. Leo Jimenez’s bread and butter is his defense and he will start in AA and probably end up in AAA if Barger gets the call. Lots of reinforcements coming.

 

[dredeye]

I would fairly easily. I really like Espinal and earlier in the off-season I thought the same way as you did.

Espinal will be a good player over his years of control but this is your window and to get a top 5 pen arm for an average hitting middle infielder who only has value at 2B and backup SS for you at the moment is well worth it.

Guys like Espinal grow on trees, guys like Hendriks don’t. Considering you already have Merrifield, Biggio and Lopez, the decision is much easier. And if they all suck, 2B is the easiest position to fill on the diamond by a long shot.

But you make the trade, sign any backup free agent SS as a stop gap;

Depth Charts - Free Agents | FanGraphs Baseball

Free Agents depth charts updated daily with projections

www.fangraphs.com

And by late spring, Barger is ready and he plays a very good SS if you need him. Leo Jimenez’s bread and butter is his defense and he will start in AA and probably end up in AAA if Barger gets the call. Lots of reinforcements coming.

So let’s say Bo goes down and you relied on the three you mentioned to play short. How awful do we look at that point? You are underselling his value saying he’s a 2b backup ss. He should be our ss and Bo playing second. I know 2b is easy to fill and we are loaded there. Problem is we are week at ss and Espinal is a very very good one. With an average bat yes. Saying it’s an all in year and following it up with saying barger and Jimenez are almost ready is an odd statement. It’s all in but plan b is two prospects? I know you have to give to get but I’d be very worried about giving in this case. Depth was our weakness last year.

 

[Bjindaho]

So let’s say Bo goes down and you relied on the three you mentioned to play short. How awful do we look at that point? You are underselling his value saying he’s a 2b backup ss. He should be our ss and Bo playing second. I know 2b is easy to fill and we are loaded there. Problem is we are week at ss and Espinal is a very very good one. With an average bat yes. Saying it’s an all in year and following it up with saying barger and Jimenez are almost ready is an odd statement. It’s all in but plan b is two prospects? I know you have to give to get but I’d be very worried about giving in this case. Depth was our weakness last year.

If Bo goes down, Barger plays SS.

 

[BertCorbeau]

No interest in moving Espy .. Espy and Whit along with Biggio solid depth

 

[phillipmike]

So let’s say Bo goes down and you relied on the three you mentioned to play short. How awful do we look at that point? You are underselling his value saying he’s a 2b backup ss. He should be our ss and Bo playing second. I know 2b is easy to fill and we are loaded there. Problem is we are week at ss and Espinal is a very very good one. With an average bat yes. Saying it’s an all in year and following it up with saying barger and Jimenez are almost ready is an odd statement. It’s all in but plan b is two prospects? I know you have to give to get but I’d be very worried about giving in this case. Depth was our weakness last year.

He should be our SS and Bo our 2B but we know that isn’t happening. If Bo goes down, then one of the free agents the Jays will sign will fill in. Or Barger or you make a trade like you would at almost every position on this team except for 2B and CF.

The best backup to fill in last year and play at SS was Rojas in Miami and he put up 1.2 fWAR. When Anderson went down the White Sox signed Andrus and he did very well.

Most teams would have this problem if their starting SS goes down except for maybe the Padres. The 29 other teams don’t have have great backups. You don’t keep your backup SS when you can drastically improve your team somewhere else. It’s the same problem we have if Vladdy, Chapman, Springer or starting pitcher goes down.

Don’t get me wrong, Espinal is a good player and all, and I want to keep him. If we can add an elite pen arm like Hendriks without having to give up Espinal, anyone else off our roster or even top prospects, then I’m all ears. We know that isn’t happening.

But for me Espinal makes the most season for me personally knowing what’s available to replace him via FA, what we currently have in the upper system and knowing the cost of pen arms. To me it’s a no brainer, as I said, it’s much easier to fill a platoon 2B who is our backup SS vs one of the best closers in the league.

Always thought one of the 2Bs will be traded before the season with Merrifield in the fold. You aren’t trading Merrifield. My preference is to trade Cavan but Biggio’s value is at a low plus his lefty bat makes sense to keep. I always liked Lopez and maybe he and Cavan replace Merrifield in 2024 when Whit is a free agent. So to me, I would sell high on the All Star, Espinal.

 

[Puckstuff]

If Bo goes down, Barger plays SS.

For a team that has gone full tilt on run prevention by acquiring great defensive players like Chapman, Varsho and Kk, I don’t see them trading one of our best defensive players in Espinal when SS is our worst defensive position. Barger and Bichette have question marks at SS on the defensive side. Bichette makes a lot of throwing errors and is still a work in progress. Barger could work as a backup but there’s some question marks with that as well. To me, Espinal has more value to the Jays than any other team for the proven elite D he brings at our most vulnerable defensive position.

 

[phillipmike]

Huge overpay for a guy who sports a career -0.9 bWAR.

Also so much for the Tigers asking for Moreno for Soto at the deadline. Could have had a reasonable ask and got a better deal.

 

[dredeye]

I wonder if they think that Otto Lopez might be able to handle the Espinal role. Possibly more pop too, it will depend on his D.

I was thinking about him but that again seems like a big risk

 

[dredeye]

I would fairly easily. I really like Espinal and earlier in the off-season I thought the same way as you did.

Espinal will be a good player over his years of control but this is your window and to get a top 5 pen arm for an average hitting middle infielder who only has value at 2B and backup SS for you at the moment is well worth it.

Guys like Espinal grow on trees, guys like Hendriks don’t. Considering you already have Merrifield, Biggio and Lopez, the decision is much easier. And if they all suck, 2B is the easiest position to fill on the diamond by a long shot.

But you make the trade, sign any backup free agent SS as a stop gap;

Depth Charts - Free Agents | FanGraphs Baseball

Free Agents depth charts updated daily with projections

www.fangraphs.com

And by late spring, Barger is ready and he plays a very good SS if you need him. Leo Jimenez’s bread and butter is his defense and he will start in AA and probably end up in AAA if Barger gets the call. Lots of reinforcements coming.

I wrote a big response to this and it seems it didn’t post. It’s a little disingenuous to call Espinal and 2b back up ss when he’s better defensively at both position than anyone on the team and should be switching positions with Bo defensively. There is no good back up to Bo if we move Espinal which is the concern. But to then say that we have Barger and Jimenez both close is a crazier argument for a win now team. It’s good we have pieces in the system but trading Espinal is not quite as easy to replace as you suggest. Unless the jays go haywire and sign Correa to a one year show me deal so he can go back to free agency next year Without the Medicaid hanging over him. Otherwise even for Hendricks I’d be concerned. I wouldn’t hate getting Hendricks but I think it forces yet another move.

 

[phillipmike]

I wrote a big response to this and it seems it didn’t post. It’s a little disingenuous to call Espinal and 2b back up ss when he’s better defensively at both position than anyone on the team and should be switching positions with Bo defensively. There is no good back up to Bo if we move Espinal which is the concern. But to then say that we have Barger and Jimenez both close is a crazier argument for a win now team. It’s good we have pieces in the system but trading Espinal is not quite as easy to replace as you suggest. Unless the jays go haywire and sign Correa to a one year show me deal so he can go back to free agency next year Without the Medicaid hanging over him. Otherwise even for Hendricks I’d be concerned. I wouldn’t hate getting Hendricks but I think it forces yet another move.

But he IS a platoon 2B and backup SS to the Jays. There is no scenario where he overtakes a healthy Bo and likely no realistic scenario where he starts the most games at 2B over Merrifield - so it makes no sense to value him the way you are. If he were a young prospect with potential with a logjam at the position like Moreno was then I can see that. But he is a league average hitter about to turn 28. I have no issues trading him for a bigger need.

Of course it forces another move, I’ve been saying that for 3 posts now. If they made this trade they would sign a backup SS. Jays could easily sign Iglesias to be their backup SS and they would be fine.

 

[dredeye]

But he IS a platoon 2B and backup SS to the Jays. There is no scenario where he overtakes a healthy Bo and likely no realistic scenario where he starts the most games at 2B over Merrifield - so it makes no sense to value him the way you are. If he were a young prospect with potential with a logjam at the position like Moreno was then I can see that. But he is a league average hitter about to turn 28. I have no issues trading him for a bigger need.

Of course it forces another move, I’ve been saying that for 3 posts now. If they made this trade they would sign a backup SS. Jays could easily sign Iglesias to be their backup SS and they would be fine.

Maybe where we differ is that I value the guy that can take over the role fulltime if needed and we'd still be in good shape. I view Whit as our super utility but that's tbd at this point. Maybe it's an over value on my part but Biggio is the expendable one IMO not Espinal. I get that he's likely not appealing for Hendricks but that's my feeling. Yes you said we need to sign a back up but I'm saying its moves forcing more moves which isn't always ideal.

He should be our SS and Bo our 2B but we know that isn’t happening. If Bo goes down, then one of the free agents the Jays will sign will fill in. Or Barger or you make a trade like you would at almost every position on this team except for 2B and CF.

The best backup to fill in last year and play at SS was Rojas in Miami and he put up 1.2 fWAR. When Anderson went down the White Sox signed Andrus and he did very well.

Most teams would have this problem if their starting SS goes down except for maybe the Padres. The 29 other teams don’t have have great backups. You don’t keep your backup SS when you can drastically improve your team somewhere else. It’s the same problem we have if Vladdy, Chapman, Springer or starting pitcher goes down.

Don’t get me wrong, Espinal is a good player and all, and I want to keep him. If we can add an elite pen arm like Hendriks without having to give up Espinal, anyone else off our roster or even top prospects, then I’m all ears. We know that isn’t happening.

But for me Espinal makes the most season for me personally knowing what’s available to replace him via FA, what we currently have in the upper system and knowing the cost of pen arms. To me it’s a no brainer, as I said, it’s much easier to fill a platoon 2B who is our backup SS vs one of the best closers in the league.

Always thought one of the 2Bs will be traded before the season with Merrifield in the fold. You aren’t trading Merrifield. My preference is to trade Cavan but Biggio’s value is at a low plus his lefty bat makes sense to keep. I always liked Lopez and maybe he and Cavan replace Merrifield in 2024 when Whit is a free agent. So to me, I would sell high on the All Star, Espinal.

sorry I essentially made a double post. For some reason it wasn't showing my post or any response on my phone or laptop until I responded to you last post. Sorry if it seemed like I was avoiding this post.

 

[phillipmike]

Maybe where we differ is that I value the guy that can take over the role fulltime if needed and we'd still be in good shape. I view Whit as our super utility but that's tbd at this point. Maybe it's an over value on my part but Biggio is the expendable one IMO not Espinal. I get that he's likely not appealing for Hendricks but that's my feeling. Yes you said we need to sign a back up but I'm saying its moves forcing more moves which isn't always ideal.


sorry I essentially made a double post. For some reason it wasn't showing my post or any response on my phone or laptop until I responded to you last post. Sorry if it seemed like I was avoiding this post.

Again I agree. If I can get a guy like Hendriks for Whit or Biggio, I’m doing it but the value isn’t close hence why the White Sox wouldn’t do it and why Blair is throwing Espinal out there.

If the Jays wanted to trade Whit or Biggio for a reliever you’re likely getting back a reliever you already have like a Thornton or Richards.

So if you’re going for impact you probably have to move Espinal.

As for more moves, I think the Jays probably make at least 4-5 more moves before the season - most will be small but at least 2 will be notable like a reliever and a OFer. They will need to add 2 more bats: one being an OF and the other could be anything. They also need to move some arms if they acquire a reliever or another starter or both.

They already have 13 pitchers; Manoah, Gausman, Bassitt, Berrios, Kikuchi, Romano, Bass, Swanson, Garcia, Cimber, Mayza, White and Richards. Pop can be optioned but I think that is a poor move imo. Also need to move Thornton who is probably a DFA candidate.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Soto isn't good. His near 100 MPH sinker covers up the fact he couldn't hit his spot if his life depended on it.

Call me crazy, but i wouldn't want a reliever with a bb/9 over 5. Though in Philly's case they didn't give up much to acquire him so whatever i guess.

That being said i wouldn't mind taking a flier on Reyes. Very similar to Soto; nasty stuff but control issues.