Obscure hockey facts/stats (Part 2)

[Bear of Bad News]

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[Yozhik v tumane]

(Sorry for not inaugurating the new thread with an obscure fact, but with a reply )

That is kind of strange since he was known back then from his international play and he did play well as a backup when called upon...wasn't like he was some fringe guy bouncing back and forth between the NHL and the minors
Honestly I have no idea how waivers worked back then? Could it be that a bunch of teams just never checked or even had an idea he was on waivers for the period he was? That he just passed through in the dead of night and some interested GM's never noticed?

Yeah, I also wonder how waivers worked. You figure that here’s a goaltender with a bunch of international accolades and average to good NHL showings stat wise who maybe could help some fledgling team’s back end, but no one were willing to gamble on that contract?

What I’ve gathered over the years, what you still hear from people who followed Hasek’s rise to fame, was that due to his unconventional style people maybe weren’t giving him the benefit of the doubt; they expected him to be figured out for the longest time. I buy that argument. There might have been other cases with goalies like that, that you didn’t feel you could take the stats at face value because the guy doesn’t look the part, and maybe they were figured out quickly, I don’t know. Seems like the 90s constitutes a paradigm shift where the typically 80s goaltenders were falling off badly, whereas the next generation is more or less revolutionizing the position, too: teams might not be expecting this Czech veteran to be part of the revolution you’re seeing with the state of the art North American kids?

And to that point, I might add that there just hadn’t really been too many European goaltenders entering the league, winning jobs or making solid impressions yet: there might have been some general bias against them. You’ve had Lindbergh’s Vezina year, where you’re unfortunately left asking what might have been, but besides him the only Europeans I can recall had held starter jobs in the league before Hasek broke out would’ve been Hardy Åström, Kari Takko and Tommy Söderström. Irbe had played one season for the expansion Sharks on a tandem with Jeff Hackett. Maybe these guys had done a poor job proving that Hasek could play, basically.

 

[Hobnobs]

(Sorry for not inaugurating the new thread with an obscure fact, but with a reply )



Yeah, I also wonder how waivers worked. You figure that here’s a goaltender with a bunch of international accolades and average to good NHL showings stat wise who maybe could help some fledgling team’s back end, but no one were willing to gamble on that contract?

What I’ve gathered over the years, what you still hear from people who followed Hasek’s rise to fame, was that due to his unconventional style people maybe weren’t giving him the benefit of the doubt; they expected him to be figured out for the longest time. I buy that argument. There might have been other cases with goalies like that, that you didn’t feel you could take the stats at face value because the guy doesn’t look the part, and maybe they were figured out quickly, I don’t know. Seems like the 90s constitutes a paradigm shift where the typically 80s goaltenders were falling off badly, whereas the next generation is more or less revolutionizing the position, too: teams might not be expecting this Czech veteran to be part of the revolution you’re seeing with the state of the art North American kids?

And to that point, I might add that there just hadn’t really been too many European goaltenders entering the league, winning jobs or making solid impressions yet: there might have been some general bias against them. You’ve had Lindbergh’s Vezina year, where you’re unfortunately left asking what might have been, but besides him the only Europeans I can recall had held starter jobs in the league before Hasek broke out would’ve been Hardy Åström, Kari Takko and Tommy Söderström. Irbe had played one season for the expansion Sharks on a tandem with Jeff Hackett. Maybe these guys had done a poor job proving that Hasek could play, basically.

Back then you had a waiver draft at the beginning of the season. Think expansion draft but you could protect more players.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Back then you had a waiver draft at the beginning of the season. Think expansion draft but you could protect more players.

That’s interesting. Was that what happened with Hasek? If he’s waivered late in between seasons, it might partly be the case that teams more or less have settled on their rosters/goaltending tandems and will hesitate on muddling the premises, but that’s purely speculation on my end.

I heard Mike Keenan on his own podcast commenting on the Sabres putting Hasek on waivers the season following the trade, and said that he tried claiming him but that the rules at the time forbid the previous team doing it quite so soon, or something like that.

Iron Mike does seem to pump his own tires every chance he gets, and perhaps he was compensating for “the oversight” of letting Hasek go for whatever they got in return with that remark (“had to let him go, but I was the only one at the time who saw his potential”-kind of thing), but I wonder if it wasn’t also Keenan who made this distinction between Belfour and Hasek; that he admired Hasek’s commitment to training and to improve, forcing teammates to stay late just shooting slap shots at him, which was something you had hell to pay if you did against Belfour in practice.

 

[Doctor No]

Found what the waiver rules were (or at least what the press reported that they were) - also implied to be "North American" professional hockey, of course:

This is from a Munster (IN) Times article on October 29, 1991, when holdout Ed Belfour signed.

 

[Hobnobs]

That’s interesting. Was that what happened with Hasek? If he’s waivered late in between seasons, it might partly be the case that teams more or less have settled on their rosters/goaltending tandems and will hesitate on muddling the premises, but that’s purely speculation on my end.

I heard Mike Keenan on his own podcast commenting on the Sabres putting Hasek on waivers the season following the trade, and said that he tried claiming him but that the rules at the time forbid the previous team doing it quite so soon, or something like that.

Iron Mike does seem to pump his own tires every chance he gets, and perhaps he was compensating for “the oversight” of letting Hasek go for whatever they got in return with that remark (“had to let him go, but I was the only one at the time who saw his potential”-kind of thing), but I wonder if it wasn’t also Keenan who made this distinction between Belfour and Hasek; that he admired Hasek’s commitment to training and to improve, forcing teammates to stay late just shooting slap shots at him, which was something you had hell to pay if you did against Belfour in practice.

The waiver draft was a mess and complex but players traded because of it are Dino Ciccarelli and Mike Vernon (so wings wouldnt lose Osgood or Hodson) for example.

 

[Kahvi]

Gio winning Norris before being drafted got me thinking about entry and expansion drafts. What is the record for how many times player has been drafter? Being drafted twice is not uncommon (entry draft, then expansion draft or re-entry to entry draft), but has any player been drafted three times? Entry+entry+expansion would be the case I think. Unless there's a player that was drafted twice in expansion drafts.

 

[ES]

1993 NHL Expansion Draft had two phases. Lightning, Senators and Sharks had an option to pick players from Panthers and Mighty Ducks with the latter protecting one goalie, five defensemen and ten forwards.

 

[The Panther]

Some weird team and individual stats to start this 2021-22 NHL season.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins of the Oilers is sixth in NHL scoring with 0 goals and 13 assists. That makes me wonder:
a) What's the most assists any player has racked up off the top of a season without scoring a goal? (I suppose it's a D-man, but I also wonder about forwards.)
b) What's the most assists any player has ever accumulated without scoring a goal?

Arizona is 0-9-1 to start the new season. So...
c) Has any non-recent expansion club (say, 3 or more years into existence) ever had a worse 10 games to start a season?

Arizona is also a -29 in goal differential just ten games into the season, meaning they're on pace to be -238 for a full season, almost as bad as the 1975 Capitals. Obviously, that's not going to last the whole season, but still, I wonder:
d) When was the last time any club was worse then -29 after ten games to start the season?

 

[Thenameless]

Arizona is 0-9-1 to start the new season. So...
c) Has any non-recent expansion club (say, 3 or more years into existence) ever had a worse 10 games to start a season?

Arizona is also a -29 in goal differential just ten games into the season, meaning they're on pace to be -238 for a full season, almost as bad as the 1975 Capitals. Obviously, that's not going to last the whole season, but still, I wonder:
d) When was the last time any club was worse then -29 after ten games to start the season?

What's bad about Arizona too is that one does not really see them ever becoming a contender. Early on, some other expansion teams in the south showed some success through determination and hard work (I'm thinking the Scott Mellanby/John Vanbiebrouck Panthers era), or some kind of fun to watch talent like the Thrashers with Kovalchuk and Heatley. When I think of the Coyotes, all I see is Shane Doan (which is something, but not cool if he's your signature franchise guy) being loyal to a useless franchise and Gretzky behind the bench wondering what he had gotten himself into.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

b) What's the most assists any player has ever accumulated without scoring a goal?

Dallas Stars defenseman Joel Hanley currently leads this category with no goals and 16 assists in 86 games played.

Among retired players, another defenseman named Steven Halko played 155 games scattered across six seasons for the Hurricanes, posting 15 assists without a goal. Halko also holds the record for most NHL games without a single goal.

Among forwards, left winger Tim Sestito posted 8 assists without a goal in 101 NHL games where all but one was spent with the Devils.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

a) What's the most assists any player has racked up off the top of a season without scoring a goal? (I suppose it's a D-man, but I also wonder about forwards.)

I don’t know a good way to find this.
I started sifting through the NHL stats pages with a =0 goals filter to find out who had the most assists without a goal in a season, but couldn’t just choose to skip to the next year with my filter intact so it turned out too tedious a task.

However, Mike Reilly had the rather impressive stat line of 0-27-27 in just 55 games in 2020-21. This might be hard to beat.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I started sifting through the NHL stats pages with a =0 goals filter to find out who had the most assists without a goal in a season, but couldn’t just choose to skip to the next year with my filter intact so it turned out too tedious a task.

Well then I did it anyway. Not the entire history, but since expansion.

It seems Mike Reilly last year tied a record for most points without a goal since the 1967 expansion.

Very few times have a player even come close to 27 assists without getting a goal, but Barry Wilkins in 1975-76 was the one who set the record.

Here are the ones I caught who’s made it within five assists off Wilkins/Reilly’s record:

2020-21 Mike Reilly 55 0-27-27
1975-76 Barry Wilkins 75 0-27-27
1982-83 Craig Ludwig 80 0-25-25
1983-84 Brad McCrimmon 71 0-24-24
1969-70 Keith Magnuson 76 0-24-24
2006-07 Anders Eriksson 79 0-23-23
1977-78 Lee Fogolin Jr. 76 0-23-23
2007-08 Frantisek Kaberle 80 0-22-22

 

[alko]

Well then I did it anyway. Not the entire history, but since expansion.

It seems Mike Reilly last year tied a record for most points without a goal since the 1967 expansion.

Very few times have a player even come close to 27 assists without getting a goal, but Barry Wilkins in 1975-76 was the one who set the record.

Here are the ones I caught who’s made it within five assists off Wilkins/Reilly’s record:

2020-21 Mike Reilly 55 0-27-27
1975-76 Barry Wilkins 75 0-27-27
1982-83 Craig Ludwig 80 0-25-25
1983-84 Brad McCrimmon 71 0-24-24
1969-70 Keith Magnuson 76 0-24-24
2006-07 Anders Eriksson 79 0-23-23
1977-78 Lee Fogolin Jr. 76 0-23-23
2007-08 Frantisek Kaberle 80 0-22-22

And opposite? Goals without any assist?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

And opposite? Goals without any assist?

Alright, Boone Jenner and Brandom Tanev each have six goals zero assists to start the season, which would place them tied for third most goals without an assist in a post-expansion season, but of course they still have plenty of time to either tally an assist or break the record.

Most goals without an assist since the 1967 expansion is seven, held by two players. I found eleven other players that have scored five or more goals without an assist in a completed season.

2015-16 Eric Nystrom 46 7-0-7
1993-94 Dan Quinn 13 7-0-7

2009-10 Robbie Earl 32 6-0-6
1987-88 Tiger Williams 28 6-0-6
2015-16 Tyler Randell 27 6-0-6

2003-04 Stephen Peat 64 5-0-5
1992-93 Robin Bawa 42 5-0-5
2020-21 Jake Virtanen 38 5-0-5
1984-85 Mats Hallin 38 5-0-5
1997-98 Brent Peterson 19 5-0-5
1979-80 Nelson Pyatt 13 5-0-5
2015-16 Josh Leivo 12 5-0-5
2002-03 Igor Radulov 7 5-0-5

Is seven the record for most goals without an assist in NHL history? No, quite far from it, but I won’t go through every season to confirm the highest count that I found.

There were a lot fewer assists recorded before secondary assists started to count, of course, but also prior to the forward pass. Thus, I’d wager that the record was set in the 1920s.

In 1928-29 Normie Hines had 10 goals in 44 games, with zero assists.

In 1922-23 Punch Broadbent netted 14 goals without tallying an assist, in 24 games: he finished 9th overall in the goals category.

In 1926-27, John McKinnon had 13 goals and Pit Lepine 16 goals without an assist, in 44 games each. Lepine was tied for 10th in goals that year.

Then by the 1930s you’re allowed to forward pass and they start tallying assists like crazy (allegedly they were even arbitrarily counting tertiary assists for much of the decade?), and each season is looking more like the last 50 years with some guy posting 3 or 5 goals without an assist, in any given season. My unverified guess would be that Pit Lepine’s 16 goals in a season would be the record, with Broadbent’s 14 in 20 less games being the runner-up.

 

[blogofmike]

Some weird team and individual stats to start this 2021-22 NHL season.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins of the Oilers is sixth in NHL scoring with 0 goals and 13 assists. That makes me wonder:
a) What's the most assists any player has racked up off the top of a season without scoring a goal? (I suppose it's a D-man, but I also wonder about forwards.)

Teppo Numminen in 2005-06 started with an 0-32-32, and was briefly 0-33-33 before scoring a goal later in the game with his 33rd assist. That's more points than anyone who finished a season with 0 goals so it might be him.

 

[hacksaw7]

Alright, Boone Jenner and Brandom Tanev each have six goals zero assists to start the season, which would place them tied for third most goals without an assist in a post-expansion season, but of course they still have plenty of time to either tally an assist or break the record.

Most goals without an assist since the 1967 expansion is seven, held by two players. I found eleven other players that have scored five or more goals without an assist in a completed season.

2015-16 Eric Nystrom 46 7-0-7
1993-94 Dan Quinn 13 7-0-7

2009-10 Robbie Earl 32 6-0-6
1987-88 Tiger Williams 28 6-0-6
2015-16 Tyler Randell 27 6-0-6

2003-04 Stephen Peat 64 5-0-5
1992-93 Robin Bawa 42 5-0-5
2020-21 Jake Virtanen 38 5-0-5
1984-85 Mats Hallin 38 5-0-5
1997-98 Brent Peterson 19 5-0-5
1979-80 Nelson Pyatt 13 5-0-5
2015-16 Josh Leivo 12 5-0-5
2002-03 Igor Radulov 7 5-0-5

Is seven the record for most goals without an assist in NHL history? No, quite far from it, but I won’t go through every season to confirm the highest count that I found.

fwiw in the 1989 Playoffs for the Kings Chris Kontos had a bizarre 9 goals and 0 assists. Overall during his career he played in 20 playoff games with 11 goals...0 assists

There were a lot fewer assists recorded before secondary assists started to count, of course, but also prior to the forward pass. Thus, I’d wager that the record was set in the 1920s.

In 1928-29 Normie Hines had 10 goals in 44 games, with zero assists.

In 1922-23 Punch Broadbent netted 14 goals without tallying an assist, in 24 games: he finished 9th overall in the goals category.

In 1926-27, John McKinnon had 13 goals and Pit Lepine 16 goals without an assist, in 44 games each. Lepine was tied for 10th in goals that year.

Then by the 1930s you’re allowed to forward pass and they start tallying assists like crazy (allegedly they were even arbitrarily counting tertiary assists for much of the decade?), and each season is looking more like the last 50 years with some guy posting 3 or 5 goals without an assist, in any given season. My unverified guess would be that Pit Lepine’s 16 goals in a season would be the record, with Broadbent’s 14 in 20 less games being the runner-up.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

On a slightly different tangent, the two most productive goalless stretches I could find:

Börje Salming 0-41-41 in 48 games between 1980-12-06 and through the end of the 1980-81 season. Including playoffs, he had 43 assists and zero goals in 51 games. The scoring drought ended in game #3 of the 1981-82 season, with his only career hat trick vs. the Blackhawks.

In more recent times, Henrik Sedin went 0-36-36 over 56 games between 2017-11-16 and 2018-03-22, in his final year.

And by the way, the record for most assists in a goalless season seems to belong to Jimmy Thomson, who went 0-29-29 in 59 games for the Maple Leafs in 1948-49.

Jimmy Thomson might very well also have the most productive stretch of consecutive games without a goal. Between March 15 1951 and March 7 1954, Thomson went 0-78-78 in 202 consecutive regular season games played: that's parts of four seasons and almost three full years without scoring a goal while still being a regular and fairly productive roster player.

Jimmy Thomson was a highly regarded defenseman in his prime, a four-time cup winner with the Maple Leafs and a two-time second team all star.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

@hacksaw7 Did you just mean to bring my attention to a brandom spelling error?

 

[hacksaw7]

@hacksaw7 Did you just mean to bring my attention to a brandom spelling error?

No actually. Not sure what happened to what I posted. Seems to just...not be there

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that Chris Kontos in the 1989 playoffs had 9 goals and 0 assists. Overall in his career he played in 20 playoff games and scored 11 goals without registering a single assist.

 

[The Panther]

Teppo Numminen in 2005-06 started with an 0-32-32, and was briefly 0-33-33 before scoring a goal later in the game with his 33rd assist. That's more points than anyone who finished a season with 0 goals so it might be him.

On the Sportsnet Oilers' broadcast going on right now, Jack Michaels said that Alex Delvecchio had the record for most assists off the top of season with no goals. I didn't catch the season (c. 1969?), but I think he said it was 29 assists.

So, it appears Sportsnet is wrong.

 

[Sadekuuro]

On the Sportsnet Oilers' broadcast going on right now, Jack Michaels said that Alex Delvecchio had the record for most assists off the top of season with no goals. I didn't catch the season (c. 1969?), but I think he said it was 29 assists.

So, it appears Sportsnet is wrong.

I heard that too but I thought it was 22 assists and that they were speaking of forwards specifically.

 

[The Panther]

I heard that too but I thought it was 22 assists and that they were speaking of forwards specifically.

You're probably right.

Oilers' PP is at 50% after ten games. It's unstoppable.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

That’s interesting. Was that what happened with Hasek? If he’s waivered late in between seasons, it might partly be the case that teams more or less have settled on their rosters/goaltending tandems and will hesitate on muddling the premises, but that’s purely speculation on my end.

I heard Mike Keenan on his own podcast commenting on the Sabres putting Hasek on waivers the season following the trade, and said that he tried claiming him but that the rules at the time forbid the previous team doing it quite so soon, or something like that.

Iron Mike does seem to pump his own tires every chance he gets, and perhaps he was compensating for “the oversight” of letting Hasek go for whatever they got in return with that remark (“had to let him go, but I was the only one at the time who saw his potential”-kind of thing), but I wonder if it wasn’t also Keenan who made this distinction between Belfour and Hasek; that he admired Hasek’s commitment to training and to improve, forcing teammates to stay late just shooting slap shots at him, which was something you had hell to pay if you did against Belfour in practice.

Seems to me that the Hasek thing comes down to some xenophobia, the conservatism of hockey culture, and an abundance of (what seemed to be) elite goaltending.

Throughout its history the NHL has been full of, 'but that's not what we're doing right now, it will never work!' Followed by an eventual mutation that every team then rushes out to copy (see: every stanley cup winner inspires at least 5 teams to adopt a system or make trades that betray their team make up in service of playing like last season's champs).

As recently as 2005 the Kings got arguably the 2nd best player from a rich 2005 draft in Kopitar because he was Slovenian. This despite the fact he had thrived in the Swedish Junior league, and played 5 games in the Swedish Elite league.

Now, you can argue about the quality of the Swedish junior league, but he had done enough to be discussed as a top 6ish pick. One has to think that if he had the same resume, with a Swedish passport, he would have been drafted earlier.

So you have an unconventional Czech goaltender (the notion of a Czech goaltender being unconventional itself to NHL braintrust). There is still bigotry about Europeans being soft headcases who don't really care about Lord Stanley's chalice being screamed from the rooftops by Cherry, and being reinforced in every rink in North America.

Follow that up with the fact that you have Ed Belfour who is young and had won the Calder and Vezina as a rookie just a year or two prior. You have Jimmy Waite who was the darling of a famous WJC Canadian squad and a goalie with pedigree. In some ways, it's a bit of a Justin Pogge/Tuukka Rask situation of betting on the wrong horse.

Seems to be like it's a confluence of these many facts. It's just hilarious that in the 92 cup finals you have an example in front of your face of Hasek coming in and befuddling one of the best teams of the decade (albeit a small sample size).

 

[The Panther]

To my knowledge, Wayne Gretzky twice in his career scored 20 points in four consecutive NHL games.

Leading up to the “50-in-39 game” vs. Philly on Dec. 30th 1981, Wayne didn’t quite make it to 20 in a four-game stretch, but he scored 25 points in five games, which is actually even more impressive, I guess.

Anyway, these were the two 20-points-in-four games I could find:
1) Feb. 17th to Feb. 24th 1982:
vs. MIN: 2 goals + 3 assists = 5 points
vs. HAR: 3 goals + 2 assists = 5 points
@ DET: 1 goal + 4 assists = 5 points
@ BUF: 3 goals + 2 assists = 5 points

Pretty crazy to have exactly five points in four consecutive games.

2) Dec. 14 to Dec. 21 1983:
@ NYR: 3 goals + 2 assists = 5 points
vs. QUE: 1 goal + 5 assists = 6 points
@ WIN: 2 goals + 2 assists = 4 points
vs. WIN: 3 goals + 2 assists = 5 points

So, these are the only examples I can find of Wayne doing this, and looking at Mario’s three biggest seasons I don’t see him doing it (he did have 19 points in four games at least once).

So, has any other player besides Gretzky ever done this?

Maybe back in the 1920s or something…?