Confirmed with Link: NYR Fire John Davidson and Jeff Gorton

[rangers1314]

I'm sorry but which podcast is this?

31 Thoughts.

 

[NYR94]

I'm sorry but which podcast is this?

Elliot Friedman's podcast 31 Thoughts.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

Try to make logic of an illogical situation with an irrational owner. So outside of the statement and the potential drama inside the organization around it there are two tangible subjects that may have made Dolan want a change.

TdA situation. I don't want to bring up this dead horse discussion of was it right vs wrong. I want to point out that perhaps Dolan didn't agree with the decision either at the time or over time. I'm sure JD and Gorts told Dolan the plan and at the time Dolan trusted JD and Gorts. JD and Gorts probably presented that they could "live" without TdA. In the end falling short, perhaps in Dolan's mind he thinks they could have used TdA especially with the injuries at the end. At the very least, I'm sure he wasn't happy paying TdA not to play (although he has swallowed paying for players like Redden who's services were no longer rendered with the team).

Playoff bubble feedback from JD and Gorts was "we are concerned about the lack of grit on the team" and the solution they assembled still didn't address this issue enough. One could easily argue the cap circumstances this year and we have much more flexbility this off season. If Dolan lost trust because of how they handled this issue last year, maybe he doesn't trust their ability to actually address it.

 

[haveandare]

In the Monday game before all the crazy stuff Smith after a whistle approached Eller with ill intent but thought better of it when Chara arrived and got between them.

Sure, but Smith isn’t exactly Tom Wilson, and Chara isn’t going to materialize mid game flow to stop Wilson from checking someone in the head

 

[Yuck]

Its very possible to mis-read the boss too -- especially one that appears disinterested or checked out. Lack of regular and consistent communications cause expectations and reality to fall out of sync. It's possible because Dolan wasn't breathing down JD's neck all the time JD assumed all was well and that Dolan was onboard and completely understood the plan/progress and failed to manage his expectations.

That's where my brain is in all of this. The lack of any big trades during the deadline, the lack of firing Quinn tell me one thing. Gorton didn't see this coming whatsoever. And to be honest, as much as I love JD -- that's on him. That's JD's job in all of this. If Gorton had any concerns his job was on the line he certainly didn't show it.

 

[JCProdigy]

31T podcast is out, a few notes:
- Elliotte says this move had been in the works for a month, jives with what Dolan himself said.
- Says Sather played "a significant role" in this.
- Says Dolan "felt like he wasn't communicated with" regarding JD. Says Dolan wanted more communication from his senior guys.
- "Whatever Davidson and Gorton were selling, it wasn't for Dolan". Says Dolan isn't one for "building", he wants "bold" and Sather is bold.
- Says everyone is trying to define what Dolan says "was missing".
- Elliotte mentions Tochett, says he isn't sure the Rangers want Torts 2.0. Feels for Quinn.
- Wonders if JD goes back to TV. Gorton was "hurt" being let go, says people are already asking about him.

Yep ok, now I'm going back to my initial reaction and saying the Rangers may be royally f***ed. f***ity f*** f*** f***ed. I can live with Drury in control and Sather the buffer but if Sather is more active in the game!?!? We've seen that movie already and I'm not expecting an Academy award for the sequal.

If Carp's article is true and Dolan was livid that we didn't add at THIS deadline for a playoff push then that is huge cause for concern. This was not the year to make a big splash for a playoff push. For an upgrade to help now and the future? Sure, which is what Gorton was trying to get done. So if the Rangers are in a wild card spot next year, don't be surprised if we see an Amonte type trade except the Rangers wouldn't be in position of the '94 team.

Remember Godfather Sather's "boldness" brought us guys like a 'on his last legs' Lindros, Redden, Gomez, Drury the player, and Lowe/Trottier/Muckler the coaches and resulted in absolutely ZERO cups during his tenure. Has he weaseled his way back in because he thinks he's the one to bring it across the finish line? Maybe we'll also get a reprise of him firing a coach mid-season and taking over behind the bench.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

I get the feeling we’re going to sign Foligno for an irresponsible amount of money.

 

[will1066]

Try to make logic of an illogical situation with an irrational owner. So outside of the statement and the potential drama inside the organization around it there are two tangible subjects that may have made Dolan want a change.

TdA situation. I don't want to bring up this dead horse discussion of was it right vs wrong. I want to point out that perhaps Dolan didn't agree with the decision either at the time or over time. I'm sure JD and Gorts told Dolan the plan and at the time Dolan trusted JD and Gorts. JD and Gorts probably presented that they could "live" without TdA. In the end falling short, perhaps in Dolan's mind he thinks they could have used TdA especially with the injuries at the end. At the very least, I'm sure he wasn't happy paying TdA not to play (although he has swallowed paying for players like Redden who's services were no longer rendered with the team).

Playoff bubble feedback from JD and Gorts was "we are concerned about the lack of grit on the team" and the solution they assembled still didn't address this issue enough. One could easily argue the cap circumstances this year and we have much more flexbility this off season. If Dolan lost trust because of how they handled this issue last year, maybe he doesn't trust their ability to actually address it.

Remember when this board collectively did a WTF when Gorton declared that Tony wasn't playing one more game in the sweater and we all said he just killed any leverage he had? Maybe that irked Dolan as much as it irked us.

There was definitely tension between the owner and the FO, if there is one fact to take away right now.

This is playing out like a Shyamalayan movie. You didn't see the big twist coming, but looking back, the signs were all there.

Other people have already pointed out the many signs, but how about the lack of a captain this whole time? It's been "leadership" by committee. There is an easygoing, devil-may-care-about-losing-or-winning attitude in that room, and a pacifist showing on the ice.

If you're Dolan, wouldn't you be concerned when it's your $81.5 million investment who has to be the one to jump into real, immiment, physical harm to help out a teammate?

 

[ArPanet]

Sure, but Smith isn’t exactly Tom Wilson, and Chara isn’t going to materialize mid game flow to stop Wilson from checking someone in the head

"Honestly does anyone think any player “protects” any other player? I just don’t see how that’s remotely possible but I’m open to being convinced."

I'm just answering your question. it's an instance.

but yeah, if Chara was a Ranger Wednesday night and he was on the ice when Wilson attacked Buch would he have gotten his hands on Panarin next or would Chara have arrived in time?

otoh I don't think Chara being on the ice would have stopped Wilson from assaulting Buch. Wilson might be showing CTE symptoms already.

 

[Tob]

Try to make logic of an illogical situation with an irrational owner. So outside of the statement and the potential drama inside the organization around it there are two tangible subjects that may have made Dolan want a change.

TdA situation. I don't want to bring up this dead horse discussion of was it right vs wrong. I want to point out that perhaps Dolan didn't agree with the decision either at the time or over time. I'm sure JD and Gorts told Dolan the plan and at the time Dolan trusted JD and Gorts. JD and Gorts probably presented that they could "live" without TdA. In the end falling short, perhaps in Dolan's mind he thinks they could have used TdA especially with the injuries at the end. At the very least, I'm sure he wasn't happy paying TdA not to play (although he has swallowed paying for players like Redden who's services were no longer rendered with the team).

Playoff bubble feedback from JD and Gorts was "we are concerned about the lack of grit on the team" and the solution they assembled still didn't address this issue enough. One could easily argue the cap circumstances this year and we have much more flexbility this off season. If Dolan lost trust because of how they handled this issue last year, maybe he doesn't trust their ability to actually address it.

Very true. I think what The podcast brought up the idea that Dolan wasn't communicated with properly feels like the management never presented a plan as to how they're going to address the glaring issue with the "IT" that Dolan felt was missing whether that's grit, size, toughness, coaching that brings that out. We all remember how much Dolan loved Torts.

I think that's what did JD in.

 

[Daves a mess]

I'm no Dolan apologist. I can say I've seen him at not so flattering booze induced happiness. I can also say he certainly appeared to be a happy guy when I met him. Always smiling and polite at different Long Island area hot spots. Not some brooding mental case.

He's no rocket scientist either.

But no doubt in my mind that Messier, Graves, Slats, maybe Orts, some scouts etc have his ear and respect.

Supposedly there is a very good relationship between him and King Henrik. Bet that buyout rubbed just him a bit.

They see a "culture issue ". I see perimeter play, baby poop soft decision making along the wall, and short of Kreider, unscreened opposing goalies, especially against the divisions better teams. In front of our net is better than last year but still woefully unintimidating to set camp in.

The Dolans fired Neil Smith and hired Slats. Jimmy Boy stayed out of Glenn's business for almost 20 years. I'm sure Slats had all say in his successor.

If an owner comes in once every 20 years and cleans house for internal reasons that I'm sure are many ( to him) , I personally am not gonna rag on a guy for listening to his most trusted advisors.

I was a big Gorts fan and grew up with a painted JD mask that my dad designed for me. But this team has foxhole issues. Some great individual pieces, but getting ugly and dirty to grind out a win, let alone a series doesn't look like its in this teams leaders DNA. Right now.

Drury got hired to put some teeth into this tiger cub.

That's how I perceived Dolans comments and TO ME, Glenn Sather seemed quite comfortable with this move as well.

 

[haveandare]

"Honestly does anyone think any player “protects” any other player? I just don’t see how that’s remotely possible but I’m open to being convinced."

I'm just answering your question. it's an instance.

but yeah, if Chara was a Ranger Wednesday night and he was on the ice when Wilson attacked Buch would he have gotten his hands on Panarin next or would Chara have arrived in time?

otoh I don't think Chara being on the ice would have stopped Wilson from assaulting Buch. Wilson might be showing CTE symptoms already.

I mean protect them from the sort of thing Wilson does, not protect them from scripted fights that players already don’t have to participate in. Ultimately, Chara or no, Smith could drop the gloves and Eller could skate away and be protected by the refs.

 

[Daves a mess]

Also saw that Drury is going to be relying more on analytics and hiring more stats geeks to put in front of him. That should make a lot of people happy.

If Drury fires Quinn, is a proven analytics coach on the radar? Who are the big analytics head coaches in the league now? Or are most assistant coaches the analytics gurus?

 

[Daves a mess]

Wilson and Ovi texted Bread to see how he's doing.

 

[Tob]

I'm no Dolan apologist. I can say I've seen him at not so flattering booze induced happiness. I can also say he certainly appeared to be a happy guy when I met him. Always smiling and polite at different Long Island area hot spots. Not some brooding mental case.

He's no rocket scientist either.

But no doubt in my mind that Messier, Graves, Slats, maybe Orts, some scouts etc have his ear and respect.

Supposedly there is a very good relationship between him and King Henrik. Bet that buyout rubbed just him a bit.

They see a "culture issue ". I see perimeter play, baby poop soft decision making along the wall, and short of Kreider, unscreened opposing goalies, especially against the divisions better teams. In front of or net is better than last year but still woefully unintimidating to set camp in.

The Dolans fired Neil Smith and hired Slats. Jimmy Boy stayed out of Glenn's business for almost 20 years. I'm sure Slats had all say in his successor.

If an owner comes in once every 20 years and cleans house for internal reasons that I'm sure are many ( to him) , I personally am not gonna rag on a guy for listening to his most trusted advisors.

I was a big Gorts fan and grew up with a painted JD mask that my dad designed for me. But this team has foxhole issues. Some great individual pieces, but getting ugly and dirty to grind out a win, let alone a series doesn't look like its in this teams leaders DNA. Right now.

Drury got hired to put some teeth into this tiger cub.

That's how I perceived Dolans comments and TO ME, Glenn Sather seemed quite comfortable with this move as well.

This board will be torn apart by the DeAngelo Apologists and the Dolan Apologists. Probably a big overlap as well?

 

[Esa 10]

Remember when this board collectively did a WTF when Gorton declared that Tony wasn't playing one more game in the sweater and we all said he just killed any leverage he had? Maybe that irked Dolan as much as it irked us.

There was definitely tension between the owner and the FO, if there is one fact to take away right now.

This is playing out like a Shyamalayan movie. You didn't see the big twist coming, but looking back, the signs were all there.

Other people have already pointed out the many signs, but how about the lack of a captain this whole time? It's been "leadership" by committee. There is an easygoing, devil-may-care-about-losing-or-winning attitude in that room, and a pacifist showing on the ice.

If you're Dolan, wouldn't you be concerned when it's your $81.5 million investment who has to be the one to jump into real, immiment, physical harm to help out a teammate?

Management subtracted Hank, Staal and Fast from leadership group and brought in one vet who quickly disappeared: Jack Johnson. That could be a plausible explanation why Quinn had so much trouble getting players going in unified direction this year.

Staal had to go for performance reasons. Hank is controversial, but if he wanted to start understandable. The Fast decision was inexplicable and as events unfolded seems a huge unforced error by Gorton. The key mistake by management last offseason.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I'm no Dolan apologist. I can say I've seen him at not so flattering booze induced happiness. I can also say he certainly appeared to be a happy guy when I met him. Always smiling and polite at different Long Island area hot spots. Not some brooding mental case.

He's no rocket scientist either.

But no doubt in my mind that Messier, Graves, Slats, maybe Orts, some scouts etc have his ear and respect.

Supposedly there is a very good relationship between him and King Henrik. Bet that buyout rubbed just him a bit.

They see a "culture issue ". I see perimeter play, baby poop soft decision making along the wall, and short of Kreider, unscreened opposing goalies, especially against the divisions better teams. In front of or net is better than last year but still woefully unintimidating to set camp in.

The Dolans fired Neil Smith and hired Slats. Jimmy Boy stayed out of Glenn's business for almost 20 years. I'm sure Slats had all say in his successor.

If an owner comes in once every 20 years and cleans house for internal reasons that I'm sure are many ( to him) , I personally am not gonna rag on a guy for listening to his most trusted advisors.

I was a big Gorts fan and grew up with a painted JD mask that my dad designed for me. But this team has foxhole issues. Some great individual pieces, but getting ugly and dirty to grind out a win, let alone a series doesn't look like its in this teams leaders DNA. Right now.

Drury got hired to put some teeth into this tiger cub.

That's how I perceived Dolans comments and TO ME, Glenn Sather seemed quite comfortable with this move as well.

Fair enough, but I think whatever garbled BS Dolan spewed to the Post about an organization being united and engaged from top to bottom is one of the most disingenuous things he's ever uttered with his track record --- and I'm not even going to mention how difficult that ambiguous thought is in the midst of a global pandemic.

Anyway, maybe Gorton's shelf life was coming close to an end, but this seems like a raw deal for a guy that was patient (and lucky) enough to stock the Rangers with more top end talent potential than they've ever had. For so many years, we chased the talent and had a team full of grinders. To have the talent and needing to chase the grinders is such an easier job, one that Im sure would be addressed with some more patience.

But to fire a beloved organizational figure like JD for no good reason is truly disgusting. There's something rotten behind the scenes, and it involves the JD/Gorton tandem preaching patience with an uber-young team and Dolan being the toddler tyrant asshole he's always been.

 

[will1066]

Remember when this board collectively did a WTF when Gorton declared that Tony wasn't playing one more game in the sweater and we all said he just killed any leverage he had? Maybe that irked Dolan as much as it irked us.

There was definitely tension between the owner and the FO, if there is one fact to take away right now.

This is playing out like a Shyamalayan movie. You didn't see the big twist coming, but looking back, the signs were all there.

Other people have already pointed out the many signs, but how about the lack of a captain this whole time? It's been "leadership" by committee. There is an easygoing, devil-may-care-about-losing-or-winning attitude in that room, and a pacifist showing on the ice.

If you're Dolan, wouldn't you be concerned when it's your $81.5 million investment who has to be the one to jump into real, immiment, physical harm to help out a teammate?

A joke, but maybe there's some truth to it:

Dolan: How's my team doing?
JD: It's coming along. You might've seen some things, but they're nothing to worry about. We've got it under control.

Dolan: Yeah, I saw some things lately, and to be honest, I'm a little troubled.
JD: Again, we have plans. Trust us. We're hockey people. There are some things about hockey you might not understand. And you'd probably be bored if I began detailing every little nook and cranny that's going on.

Dolan: Ok.
JD: Ok.

Dolan calling up Slats...

Dolan: How's my team doing?

 

[rangers1314]

Also saw that Drury is going to be relying more on analytics and hiring more stats geeks to put in front of him. That should make a lot of people happy.

If Drury fires Quinn, is a proven analytics coach on the radar? Who are the big analytics head coaches in the league now? Or are most assistant coaches the analytics gurus?

I'd love to see them prove it. Go toss your money around at Eric Tulsky.

 

[Lion Hound]

What's interesting to me is that some of the moves we're talking about from the last few years --- are patented Sather moves or connected to him. Buyouts, lingering contracts that we struggle to move, etc. None of this is new. And a lot of it is coming off.

These guys were Sather's hand-picked replacements. The structure was partly designed by him. He signed off and was involved on every step of what we just jettisoned. There is no way to separate Sather from any of this. His DNA is all over it.

This is the part that scares me the most about the firing of Gorton and JD. The team went from cupboard absolutely bare, one of the best prospect bases in the entire NHL. Top 3 for sure. First time they truly orchestrated a full on rebuild. If Sather gets his hands on it now, i fear they start moving these kids out for veteran players, and with that trading away like more 1 st and 2nd round draft picks then any other GM in history.

Im OK Drury. I like that he's getting his chance. But...I have a lot of reservations about GS at the helm. In the past I was a Sather fan, however i think the game passed him up.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Yep ok, now I'm going back to my initial reaction and saying the Rangers may be royally f***ed. f***ity f*** f*** f***ed. I can live with Drury in control and Sather the buffer but if Sather is more active in the game!?!? We've seen that movie already and I'm not expecting an Academy award for the sequal.

I am not one to defend Sather, grant me a little latitude here. Sather was the one who recognized the need for a (re)build. Sather's name is on the letter. I have to believe he can still see the forrest through the trees.

If Carp's article is true and Dolan was livid that we didn't add at THIS deadline for a playoff push then that is huge cause for concern. This was not the year to make a big splash for a playoff push. For an upgrade to help now and the future? Sure, which is what Gorton was trying to get done. So if the Rangers are in a wild card spot next year, don't be surprised if we see an Amonte type trade except the Rangers wouldn't be in position of the '94 team.

Again, allow me to play the uncharacteristic devil's advocate.

I wonder if Sather can placate Dolan by pushing for a trade for more toughness and a new coach.

As far an "Amonte-trade" deal: 1) That wasn't a Sather move 2) Any move may be more of a "Nash-like" trade—where the team is willing to move some pieces outside of what is decided is the core (presumably at this point I think we're talking Lafreniere, Miller, Kakko and Fox). I also don't see a move to deal a young top six guy for two role players (which is what the Amonte trade was).

Remember Godfather Sather's "boldness" brought us guys like a 'on his last legs' Lindros, Redden, Gomez, Drury the player, and Lowe/Trottier/Muckler the coaches and resulted in absolutely ZERO cups during his tenure. Has he weaseled his way back in because he thinks he's the one to bring it across the finish line? Maybe we'll also get a reprise of him firing a coach mid-season and taking over behind the bench.

Again, can't believe I'm defending Sather, but the Lindros, Redden, Gomez, Drury moves were a long time ago. And, yes, there were awful. But he's greatest success here when he really didn't make those moves. He did make too many "we're-one-player away" moves with Nash, Yandle and St. Louis, but I can only hope he realized that his letter was necessary in the first place because this team when years without first round picks (sometimes more than just the first round). And Drury has seen the importance of them as well.

 

[NYR Viper]

I'll say this. For all of the opportunities and discussions Gorton has been having at multiple drafts, etc, he seems like an overly cautious and conservative guy. It's very possible that, with the lay out of the organization as it stands now with all of the components and players they have at their disposal currently, Dolan may not have been in love with the lack of a killer instinct shown on multiple occasions. We're reaching the point where the team is going to have to make a couple of bold moves

 

[huerter]

Who are the handful of best owners and worst owners in the league?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Again with this whole thing, this upcoming summer was the summer where Gorton was really going to have some maneuverability to make aggressive moves

The fact that Dolan never gave him a chance is frankly ridiculous.

If we go into next season and Gorton had did nothing than fine but Dolan coming in now just is absurd

 

[Daves a mess]

This board will be torn apart by the DeAngelo Apologists and the Dolan Apologists. Probably a big overlap as well?

I resemble that remark lol. Oh God and Quinn too! Ban me now!