Confirmed with Link: NYR Fire John Davidson and Jeff Gorton

[huerter]

JD was so good at his job but he couldn't convey the vision to his boss. Wait, what?

 

[Off Sides]

There is no doubt it hurt the team on the ice. That's all I've ever been trying to say as well. You don't need to like or get along with everyone you work with, you need to produce results.

I agree with that, up until a point.

Does not matter if it's religion, politics, dogs or kids, anyone who keeps bringing it up over and over again can be so annoying that no one wants to work with them.

Something like: We get it, you like your dogs. No I don't want to see the pictures of them dressed up for the holidays, I skipped that on social media already, and you have now asked me to look at your dogs dressed like reindeer for 6 straight days, three times per day.

Now change dogs to something much more controversial and I think at some point it makes sense to just remove that person.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

From Carp’s article earlier this morning





Montgomery nailed us to the cross on that one

Sort of but we've been dysfunctional off the ice, made several pretty bad trade/contract/FA decisions and the on ice product has been way too inconsistent in ways that young talent doesnt excuse. There was enough smoke there to possibly justify a shake up and arguably a LOT of that is alleviated by a better coaching hire or better roster moves by the FO.

That said, I think I fall in the camp of "Dolan's making a move that might be right simply by accident...and likely for the wrong reasons too"

Something I havent heard mentioned is isn't this familiar to Gorton in Bos? Rebuild almost done and he gets fired? Wonder if they saw a lot of the same inadequacies over in Bos and realized he wouldn't be the guy to get things over the top.

Also who was whispering in Dolan's ears to get these two fired and why? He doesn't know enough to just do this randomly on his own.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Agree to disagree. I remember seeing the Sabres giving us a whole lot to handle (Black Crowes) with their forecheck and transition.

The 6-3 game was probably our most complete game against them, if they outshot us it was barely and because the game was over halfway through. You can't just willy take 3 goals away. The 3-1 game was horrible in the first but we ended up outshooting them. I know it's cool to pile on the Rangers but let's keep it to actual losses where they looked lifeless like against the Islanders.

 

[Miamipuck]

The 6-3 game was probably our most complete game against them, if they outshot us it was barely and because the game was over halfway through. You can't just willy take 3 goals away. The 3-1 game was horrible in the first but we ended up outshooting them. I know it's cool to pile on the Rangers but let's keep it to actual losses where they looked lifeless like against the Islanders.

I hate when people do that.

The one that really got me to hate when people do that wasn't even from hockey:

If you take away Barry Sanders long runs his ypc is low because he got stopped for a loss too many times. Yeah duh that's not the way that works, not every player can be Curtis Martin where every run of his was 4 yards. Anyway I digress as usual.

 

[Edge]

Yeah that makes a lot of sense

any ideas on what trade Gorton was working at the deadline but fell apart Carp was referencing?

Might's been a revisit to Calgary.

 

[Off Sides]

They had cap space to do different things, if not they wouldn't have been able to sign Panarin, Shattenkirk, trade for and extend Smith, Trouba, extend Kreider, ADA, Strome, make the buy outs.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I feel bad for Gorton on this. Really strange to fire the GM for a 'cultural' issue and then just promote the Associate GM. I don't really know what Drury has done to be so lauded--not that I doubt he's deserving, but his team USA GMship has been pretty bad.

Truth be told, I don't disagree with what Dolan is out here saying on record. Particularly from a player development standpoint, I've been really unimpressed with the Rangers under Gorton. Mainly, it's always struck me as a bit naive at best to be so unmoved at the lack of progress from our biggest prospects as well as the environments they've been set to develop in. I put that more on the coach, but I suppose management ultimately let it play out the way it has. And everybody has just been fine with it.

Traditionally, landing a 2OA with Kakko's pedigree and a 1OA with Lafreniere's would mean you're getting at least two top six forwards this year. Those are special talents. If you just think they're not that level after all, then OK, the rebuild is in big trouble. But I've just never seen around the league prospects of that caliber be so stifled. I do have to look to Gorton on some of that--treating the seasons at once as playoffs or bust while also depleting the roster or at least refusing to bolster it at the deadline has been a staple of the last couple seasons, and it's weird.

I hope Gorton finds another role and is allowed to actually play it out though. So far he's filled the cupboards in Boston only to have Chiarelli finish the job, and now is watching maybe the same thing happen here.

I'm curious what differences there are between how Drury thinks about running the ship and how JD/JG do. Drury mentions analytics. He mentions being present in at the ice level more. And he mentions having the buck ultimately stop with him in every direction. Maybe in the end, Jeff was too hand's off. Put people he trusts in place and let them do their job as they see it. That's a valuable trait in a manager. But on the flip side, a manager has to be able to hold people accountable to the bottom line. My feeling is that Gorton's bottom line was maybe lower than Dolan's. Is it lower than Drury's?

 

[JCProdigy]

The biggest indictment on JD and Gorton, I guess, was not recognizing the division they were going to be playing in this year and adding a take no BS player to protect the team's stars and younger players. In retrospect, that was a mistake even though I'm assuming their plan was to address that this offseason.

There was no reason to not have signed Matt Martin to play on the 4th line instead of Howden. He would have been the perfect player to play 4th line minutes and protect the rest of the team

Honestly does anyone think any player “protects” any other player? I just don’t see how that’s remotely possible but I’m open to being convinced.

This happened to Lubomir Visnovsky in the 2015 playoffs which knocked him out of the series.
Matt Martin was on that team.

This happened last year.

Matt Martin really showed Wilson. I bet Wilson was shaking in his boots and obviously would never dare take runs at any of the Islanders players if they play in the playoffs this year.

You want a player like Martin on the fourth line to play a hard forcheck, finish every check and set the tone from the bottom line? OK I get that. You want him on the team to "protect" or get retribution for his teammates. The logic doesn't compute. People act like in the 1980s-1990s that there weren't serial cheapshot artists in the league that played on the edge and crossed the line. Even with all the guys like Probert, Kocur, Churla, they existed. Even when they had to answer for their transgressions what was it? A fight that usually ended up in a couple of punches to the helmet and a takedown or a turtle job. Very rarely do you see an actual deserved knockout or a Bertuzzi/Mcsorley incident.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

As the dust starts to settle on this whole ordeal I've gotta say I am at peace with this decision and while the JD firing was not ideal, I am fine with Gorton leaving.

He made a number of questionable decisions during his tenure here including the Lias pick, Smith contract, mismanagement of the DeAngelo situation, Trouba overpayment, Kreider contract etc. Had he not lucked into winning the lottery two years in a row we would be in a significantly worse position and seriously doubt we would be considered a top prospect pool.

 

[Tob]

Frank Seravalli when asked if JD gets another job next season and he throws down and says "In 15 years as president in the league, he's won 1 playoff series, why would you hire him?"

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

]
You want a player like Martin on the fourth line to play a hard forcheck, finish every check and set the tone from the bottom line? \

yes, please.

 

[haveandare]

As the dust starts to settle on this whole ordeal I've gotta say I am at peace with this decision and while the JD firing was not ideal, I am fine with Gorton leaving.

He made a number of questionable decisions during his tenure here including the Lias pick, Smith contract, mismanagement of the DeAngelo situation, Trouba overpayment, Kreider contract etc. Had he not lucked into winning the lottery two years in a row we would be in a significantly worse position and seriously doubt we would be considered a top prospect pool.

Would we though? Replace Kakko and Laf with Zegras and Lundell/Rossi/Perfetti and they don’t have a top prospect pool? I seriously doubt that.

If you’re expecting to not have these types of missteps when you look back on years of Drury at the helm, you’re going to be disappointed.

 

[DutchShamrock]

First, I guess I shouldn't have waded into a debate that didn't involve me.

Second, I'm just sharing a general worry I have--that is shared by others, evidently--that the window is going to be half-open or half-shut, depending on your perspective, but never fully open. Some of the young guys that we're going to be relying on need to be ready to take the step next season, while the veteran group is still in their prime. If it takes a couple more years for Kakko, Kravtsov, Lafreniere, Lundkvist, whoever else you want to name, to really hit their stride, that could very realistically coincide with the start of downturn in the play of the veterans. No, I have no actual evidence to suggest Panarin or Zibanejad (if he's here) or Trouba or whoever else will actually decline, other than anecdotal stuff about players around 30, but I'm just stating a generalized concern.

Like, what if we've seen Panarin's best? Or Zibanejad's? What if Strome has that regression that so many thought he would? What if Kreider or Trouba slow down and become anchor contracts? That's all worst case stuff of course but not outside the realm of possibility. It feels like we're straddling a fine line with when that window is totally open as opposed to when it's fully open but simultaneously shutting because some guys start to decline. Now this isn't anything that it's a huge failing of JD and Gorts or anything, just a worry. And of course, as I've argued many times, windows can be reset and are fluid--like you could spin off Strome or Zibanejad or whatever for younger players and eliminate some of that worry about the "misalignment" of the youth development and the veterans' ability.

Your comment was that the window is totally open next year and would be for five years; my point was that it's totally possible that's not the case if the kids continue to progress at a deliberate pace and if the older core were to start to decline. In that case, your five year window could basically become like a one- or two-year window before you have to make big moves. That's all. It's not a huge criticism of JD and Gorton, but just a worry about what I see as a slightly tenuous roster construction.

EDIT: Just to further clarify, I was not opposed to re-signing Kreider or signing Panarin. I supported the former and was initially on the fence about the latter but came around to the idea. So, I'm not saying it was wrong to do either of those. But, some people did say, "Hey, if we're really rebuilding, maybe these aren't moves we should be making." I think that's what the other person was alluding to.

I have tried to express my concerns since Trouba was acquired, and failed to summarize it as well as this. I'm not saying I'm right, but this is the fear. Happy to be wrong.

 

[Esa 10]

Frank Servalli dumps a rumor that JD and Gorts resisted a coaching change wanted by ownership. Servalli says he doesnt know how true that is but I'm guessing there's smoke/fire there for him to bring it up voluntarily in a pod. Also mentions the 9-0 game under Knob as the Rangers players being ready for a new coach.

Servalli's understanding that Worlds Championship US GM Drury offered Quinn the coaching job behind the scene for world champsionship

This rumor makes the most sense as a catalyst to the firings. If Drury soured on Quinn himself or was simply more willing to speed things up by getting an established coach, it explains why he remains. That would paint a divergence in vision between JD/Gorton and Sather/Drury.

How does the World Championship job tie in?

 

[DutchShamrock]

The biggest question is: "will Dolan go back into the shadows?" He said to Brooks the team has the talent to compete for the Cup. But then Drury says there's no timeline for the playoffs. That's a big divide...

My hope is he had an overreaction and has since come back down to reality. Best case is he realizes that his statement was hyperbole. But then we have to assume he exists in a rational state of mind and he is still capable of overreaction.

 

[NYR94]

Frank Seravalli when asked if JD gets another job next season and he throws down and says "In 15 years as president in the league, he's won 1 playoff series, why would you hire him?"

While that may be true he deserves credit for the Blues' Cup win even though he wasn't there anymore. They drafted Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Perron (yeah he was most recently brought in after JD left but he was drafted under JD in 2007), Parayko and Binnington during his tenure.

 

[NYSPORTS]

This happened to Lubomir Visnovsky in the 2015 playoffs which knocked him out of the series.
Matt Martin was on that team.

This happened last year.

Matt Martin really showed Wilson. I bet Wilson was shaking in his boots and obviously would never dare take runs at any of the Islanders players if they play in the playoffs this year.

You want a player like Martin on the fourth line to play a hard forcheck, finish every check and set the tone from the bottom line? OK I get that. You want him on the team to "protect" or get retribution for his teammates. The logic doesn't compute. People act like in the 1980s-1990s that there weren't serial cheapshot artists in the league that played on the edge and crossed the line. Even with all the guys like Probert, Kocur, Churla, they existed. Even when they had to answer for their transgressions what was it? A fight that usually ended up in a couple of punches to the helmet and a takedown or a turtle job. Very rarely do you see an actual deserved knockout or a Bertuzzi/Mcsorley incident.

funny how a few, just a few B.T.W. mentioned both policeman and enforcer prior to the season and were blitzed by a posse claiming this isn’t the 70’s, it’s a different league, waste of a roster spot, etc endless, etc. . . . and now here we are.

nice work

 

[rangers1314]

31T podcast is out, a few notes:
- Elliotte says this move had been in the works for a month, jives with what Dolan himself said.
- Says Sather played "a significant role" in this.
- Says Dolan "felt like he wasn't communicated with" regarding JD. Says Dolan wanted more communication from his senior guys.
- "Whatever Davidson and Gorton were selling, it wasn't for Dolan". Says Dolan isn't one for "building", he wants "bold" and Sather is bold.
- Says everyone is trying to define what Dolan says "was missing".
- Elliotte mentions Tochett, says he isn't sure the Rangers want Torts 2.0. Feels for Quinn.
- Wonders if JD goes back to TV. Gorton was "hurt" being let go, says people are already asking about him.

 

[ArPanet]

Honestly does anyone think any player “protects” any other player? I just don’t see how that’s remotely possible but I’m open to being convinced.

In the Monday game before all the crazy stuff Smith after a whistle approached Eller with ill intent but thought better of it when Chara arrived and got between them.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I feel bad for Gorton on this. Really strange to fire the GM for a 'cultural' issue and then just promote the Associate GM. I don't really know what Drury has done to be so lauded--not that I doubt he's deserving, but his team USA GMship has been pretty bad.

Truth be told, I don't disagree with what Dolan is out here saying on record. Particularly from a player development standpoint, I've been really unimpressed with the Rangers under Gorton. Mainly, it's always struck me as a bit naive at best to be so unmoved at the lack of progress from our biggest prospects as well as the environments they've been set to develop in. I put that more on the coach, but I suppose management ultimately let it play out the way it has. And everybody has just been fine with it.

Traditionally, landing a 2OA with Kakko's pedigree and a 1OA with Lafreniere's would mean you're getting at least two top six forwards this year. Those are special talents. If you just think they're not that level after all, then OK, the rebuild is in big trouble. But I've just never seen around the league prospects of that caliber be so stifled. I do have to look to Gorton on some of that--treating the seasons at once as playoffs or bust while also depleting the roster or at least refusing to bolster it at the deadline has been a staple of the last couple seasons, and it's weird.

I hope Gorton finds another role and is allowed to actually play it out though. So far he's filled the cupboards in Boston only to have Chiarelli finish the job, and now is watching maybe the same thing happen here.

I'm curious what differences there are between how Drury thinks about running the ship and how JD/JG do. Drury mentions analytics. He mentions being present in at the ice level more. And he mentions having the buck ultimately stop with him in every direction. Maybe in the end, Jeff was too hand's off. Put people he trusts in place and let them do their job as they see it. That's a valuable trait in a manager. But on the flip side, a manager has to be able to hold people accountable to the bottom line. My feeling is that Gorton's bottom line was maybe lower than Dolan's. Is it lower than Drury's?

I agree with really all of this except the bolded.

GM'ing for the worlds is always weird. Top guys are usually unavailable due to the playoffs or them declining the invites. There aren't contract negotiations, trades or any of the day to day stuff that you have to deal with on a regular basis with an NHL team. Filling out rosters in this situation is literally limited to calling people up and asking them if they want to play.

His resume as being "the guy" for the US team is exactly one tournament long too and IIRC, that team wasn't that bad.

I wouldn't have given him much, if any credit had they won gold either.

 

[NYR94]

31T podcast is out, a few notes:
- Elliotte says this move had been in the works for a month, jives with what Dolan himself said.
- Says Sather played "a significant role" in this.
- Says Dolan "felt like he wasn't communicated with" regarding JD. Says Dolan wanted more communication from his senior guys.
- "Whatever Davidson and Gorton were selling, it wasn't for Dolan". Says Dolan isn't one for "building", he wants "bold" and Sather is bold.
- Says everyone is trying to define what Dolan says "was missing".
- Elliotte mentions Tochett, says he isn't sure the Rangers want Torts 2.0. Feels for Quinn.
- Wonders if JD goes back to TV. Gorton was "hurt" being let go, says people are already asking about him.

See: this board the last 2 days

 

[Zats Muccarello]

31T podcast is out, a few notes:
- Elliotte says this move had been in the works for a month, jives with what Dolan himself said.
- Says Sather played "a significant role" in this.
- Says Dolan "felt like he wasn't communicated with" regarding JD. Says Dolan wanted more communication from his senior guys.
- "Whatever Davidson and Gorton were selling, it wasn't for Dolan". Says Dolan isn't one for "building", he wants "bold" and Sather is bold.
- Says everyone is trying to define what Dolan says "was missing".
- Elliotte mentions Tochett, says he isn't sure the Rangers want Torts 2.0. Feels for Quinn.
- Wonders if JD goes back to TV. Gorton was "hurt" being let go, says people are already asking about him.

ooof we're about to get fleeced in trades with Gorton's new team

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

My hope is he had an overreaction and has since come back down to reality. Best case is he realizes that his statement was hyperbole. But then we have to assume he exists in a rational state of mind and he is still capable of overreaction.

I think that's a big hope. Few people combine being hyperbolic with being vindictive. Add in a healthy dose of ignorance and you've got a potentially a disastrous cocktail.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

31T podcast is out, a few notes:
- Elliotte says this move had been in the works for a month, jives with what Dolan himself said.
- Says Sather played "a significant role" in this.
- Says Dolan "felt like he wasn't communicated with" regarding JD. Says Dolan wanted more communication from his senior guys.
- "Whatever Davidson and Gorton were selling, it wasn't for Dolan". Says Dolan isn't one for "building", he wants "bold" and Sather is bold.
- Says everyone is trying to define what Dolan says "was missing".
- Elliotte mentions Tochett, says he isn't sure the Rangers want Torts 2.0. Feels for Quinn.
- Wonders if JD goes back to TV. Gorton was "hurt" being let go, says people are already asking about him.

I'm sorry but which podcast is this?