- Apr 7, 2010
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Right, I still don't know how he got up from than collision into the boards against Winnipeg.
Post-Game Talk: November 4th: Canucks @ Avs
- Thread starter Skip2myBordyloo
- Start date
Right, I still don't know how he got up from than collision into the boards against Winnipeg.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
That too. Maybe Roy won't change things because it exposes a different set of problems.
That could very well be the case. Sticking with one guy is relatively easy, it's just about effort. Zone requires more hockey sense. I have a feeling Guenin and Holden would get exposed even more with that.
dahrougem2
Registered User
But it can't be worse than it is right now. We're being thoroughly dominated night in, night out save for a couple moments each game and it's because of this stupid man on man system. If players like Holden and Guenin can't play a zone-type of defence, they shouldn't be playing, plain and simple. We already as fans know they shouldn't be playing, but this would re-affirm it.
They need to do something, anything to get the heck out of this funk. Just staying the course is not going to work. Teams have figured out how to beat us and, worse, have figured out the players to go after. They know that they need to attack the Guenin's, Holden's, Hejda's etc because in a man on man system, just run a little interference and they're too slow and/or dumb to recover. They need to change, and it needs to happen starting tomorrow
Zone does NOT require more hockey sense. It's a basic defensive system they basically played as kids. The d-men stay low, the wings cover the points, the center goes wherever he's needed. Not that hard. You honestly think zone requires more hockey sense than Roy's system that's so damned complicated it's managed to confuse the hell out of a veteran NHLer who has played on a very successful defensive team and system?
And even Guenin and Holden look semi-decent on the PK. The big difference? They play zone on the PK...they don't at even strength.
- Jul 25, 2006
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If you guys don't think Roy's system is the entire problem you better think again. He has everyone run around in the d-zone with man on man coverage, including wingers who traditionally stay on their wings which makes it easier to break out of the zone with d-men passing to wingers for a quick out.
Landeskog, O'Reilly and other wingers not scoring because of that man on man in the d-zone because they waste more energy than usual for wingers and they are at times way behind their own net chasing people.
Edit: That's why you see why teams just skate circles around the Avs in their zone, it's easy to find weakness in that system. All teams have to do is skate in circles and have all the Avs players run around and eventually lose their coverage.
Landeskog, O'Reilly and other wingers not scoring because of that man on man in the d-zone because they waste more energy than usual for wingers and they are at times way behind their own net chasing people.
Edit: That's why you see why teams just skate circles around the Avs in their zone, it's easy to find weakness in that system. All teams have to do is skate in circles and have all the Avs players run around and eventually lose their coverage.
I think zone does require a little bit more hockey sense. Roy's man to man system is just sticking with your guy all over the ice. I know it's not that hard, but when I see Holden being unable to adjust when things break down, leaving some guy to walk alone in front of the net so he can stick with his guy, and Guenin do the same thing another night, you have to wonder if Roy is trying to hide them from something more.
Hell, I want to move to a zone defense, but there will still be breakdowns in that system because of the personnel we have on the blueline. The system and personnel are both the issue here.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
I'm just trying to have a rational discussion about why he's not changing things because I refuse to believe the primary reason is because Roy is stubborn and his ego is too big to make any adjustments.
dahrougem2
Registered User
The effort is a huge concern I agree. However, IMO this is all 100% on Roy. I want people to go and watch other games and see just how much other teams' defensemen pinch into the zone to create offense and are continuously moving. It's very rare, and usually it's only the offensive defenseman doing it.
Then watch us play. Literally EVERY defenseman on the opposing team is pinching in, cycling down low and helping create offense. You can bet your bottom dollar that they have been told by their coaches to do this. It's because the coaches have figured Roy out. They know that if their defenseman join the play in the zone, our wingers will get confused as asterisksx4 and our defensemen will get even more confused and vacate the front of the net to stay with their man who is now up at the blue-line. It's just a complete gong show, there is no other way to explain it. A zone might work, it might not, but I have a seriously good feeling it'd get rid of all this darn confusion in the d-zone
Then watch us play. Literally EVERY defenseman on the opposing team is pinching in, cycling down low and helping create offense. You can bet your bottom dollar that they have been told by their coaches to do this. It's because the coaches have figured Roy out. They know that if their defenseman join the play in the zone, our wingers will get confused as asterisksx4 and our defensemen will get even more confused and vacate the front of the net to stay with their man who is now up at the blue-line. It's just a complete gong show, there is no other way to explain it. A zone might work, it might not, but I have a seriously good feeling it'd get rid of all this darn confusion in the d-zone
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- Jul 25, 2006
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No one else in the NHL uses man on man defensive coverage, this team is just trying to be unique doing things their own ways whether it works or not, and i'm not exactly sure what they are trying to prove.
It's like they have their own cult and totally anti traditions of the NHL. They don't need d-men, they think they are super offensive team and everyone is gonna be jealous of it LOL, but in reality they are the joke of the NHL
It's like they have their own cult and totally anti traditions of the NHL. They don't need d-men, they think they are super offensive team and everyone is gonna be jealous of it LOL, but in reality they are the joke of the NHL
Well, there's a very simple reason why they lose their man...they're not fast enough. And the opposition knows it. It has nothing to do with hockey sense. Things are breaking down because the opposition has done their homework and know if they get enough bodies moving around it's only a matter of time before the Avs leave a wide open passing/shooting lane.
I don't think it's Roy trying to hide something about Holden/Guenin. I think it's Roy trying to hide something about himself. He's implementing this system partially because it brought him success in juniors (I'm assuming this, I've never watched the Remparts) but the reason he's not ditching it quite yet is because he doesn't really know any other.
And...really? Hide something about Holden and Guenin? That they're not smart hockey players? I think that's been readily exposed. There's nothing "more" to be revealed.
M2M is absolutely more complicated. Yes, it's true that once everyone finds their guy they gotta stick w/him...but what happens when the zone entry first happens, who takes which guy? That has to be determined right away. And then what happens if a player loses his guy? That also has to be determined. It's not only complicated, but unnecessarily so.
I'm not a fan of Sakic as a GM but he knows he needs a defenseman. Did he target the right defensemen? No definitely not but I think he knows the problem exists.
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
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Wow so Patty has watched the team play like crap most of the season, and come out with their worst performance yet, and hears the boos raining down, and his only response in the presser is "we're not that far off" and "if only we would have scored that 3rd goal?"
You have got to be kidding me Patrick. You're not that much of an idiot. Why are you talking to us like you think we're idiots?
This team has massive problems and they need some tough love. This kid glove approach to the D and the team as a whole has done nothing to turn around their struggles. Why do you keep doing it????
You have got to be kidding me Patrick. You're not that much of an idiot. Why are you talking to us like you think we're idiots?
This team has massive problems and they need some tough love. This kid glove approach to the D and the team as a whole has done nothing to turn around their struggles. Why do you keep doing it????
I know they're not fast enough. Everyone knows they're not fast enough. I'm sure Roy knows that too. But I also know that when things have broken down, those two have shown a complete inability to adjust. It happens in M2M, and it will happen in zone, even more so, IMO.
Roy said in an interview last year that he'd adjust the system if things weren't going well. This is a big test for him. I personally would like to see a system change, but I'm not expecting that to suddenly turn this team around because there's clear personnel issues on defense that will be exposed no matter what.
Why are you so surprised? He's said all along he's going to protect his players and stay positive. Ripping them in the media doesn't help matters.
I seriously don't understand why people expect that to change. Watch the video, Roy looks pissed. Just because he's not saying it to the media doesn't mean he thinks everything is alright.
dahrougem2
Registered User
I'm starting to think that the only thing which will turn this team around is a major trade, and it's got to be O'Reilly going. I'm not going to speculate for what, but it needs to happen. At this rate, I don't want to lose him for nothing in the next 2 years, and I also don't want this team to suck more than any team I've ever seen in my life at defence. It could also be something that wakes them up finally from their 2013-2014 regular season hangover
Foppa2118
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I don't know why you would think that. He dominated defensively and with his transition 5 on 5 last year. He's making the odd mistake and running around a bit, and isn't nearly as successful with his up ice rushes that he routinely did well last year.
It's not just about offense. He's been getting a lot of PP assists, because he's been playing a bigger role on the PP and it's been hot.
He has been good, don't get me wrong, he just hasn't been amazing. Last year he was amazing in a lot of games because he controlled the play so much. He's not controlling the play anywhere near as much.
SoundwaveIsCharisma
Moderator
Continue the conversation here, the last one is over the limit
Where we left off: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1766463
Where we left off: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1766463
dahrougem2
Registered User
I would say that he has been our best player this season though, goaltenders excluded. Duchene has played well but he's been hot and cold, he's had some bad games where he's just been a no-show. EJ has been a consistent factor every game and is the only defensemen who isn't brain dead out there. He isn't putting himself in positions to fail, something the other defenseman are doing regularly.
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
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I wouldn't necessarily argue that. He's right up there. I actually think McGinn's been arguably their best player game in and game out, though I'd like to see a little more phsyicality. Duchene's been good for the most part, just isn't finishing his chances per usual. Stuart's been real good for the team too, aside from the first few games where he made a few mistakes. Tang's has been ok for the most part too I think. Mitchell's been decent, and Everberg's been good in his few games and lesser role.
No one is really playing at that high of a level though IMO. That's the problem.
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Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
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I'm sure he doesn't think it's alright, but we know from the players and from Roy himself that he's never yelled at the team, and essentially treats them with kid gloves.
He can stay positive all he wants and protect his players all the way to another year outside the playoffs. Doesn't mean that's the right strategy.
I don't think this team is awake. They haven't been since day one of training camp, and I think that's kinda on Roy for being too positive. He needs to wake them up.
As for what he says in the press, I don't blame him, but I'm sick of him acting like nothing's wrong, and sheltering the D while blaming guys like Iginla. The fact that he tried to tell the fans they're close, and that the reason they lost was because they didn't score the 3rd goal, leaves me with a pretty dejected feeling at the chances of this team turning it around in time.
I'm worried it will be more of the same. The coaches will continue to instill in them that everything's fine, there's positives in their game, don't worry, and they'll continue to have the same mental approach,, and they'll continue to get the same results.
SoundwaveIsCharisma
Moderator
This team needs a system that protects it's players. This man to man system does not work because we don't have the defensive awareness nor the mobility that would actually work with that system. The problem is that too many players simply think that the defensive assignments are someone else's problem. EJ is one of the few members of the team that keeps playing in the defensive zone, too many other players just stand flat footed and lose their assignments.
I do think a strictly zone defense would be beneficial for the Avs. It's simpler and relies less on mobility. Just keep pressuring like they do on the PK, box out the offense rather than collapse inwards.
JoemAvs
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2011
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I absolutely agree.
Almost every game is looking like Minnesota away in the playoffs right now. Yeo clearly saw something when he was preparing for the playoffs and the other teams have adapted to that.
The man-to-man system had his big year. Now let it die in peace.
The problem is that changing the system now will ultimately take an adjustment period of lets say atleast 5 games where people will be caught overthinking stuff and make some mistakes.
And we absolutely can not afford another sucky 5 game stretch.
I am really scared right now. Not because of missing the playoffs. I have accepted that as a somewhat foregone conclusion over the last couple of days.
I am scared that Roy/Sakic are not able to look into the mirror and evaluate themselves.
I am worried that they will throw our 1st away in a historically awful trade.
I am worried that they will trade ROR to Toronto for "junk" like Gardiner.
I am worried that they rather do something stupid than admit to being wrong and doing a terrible job over the last few months.
- Jul 25, 2006
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Why is everyone surprised of Roy's attitude? He's always been stubborn and cocky as a player and now as a coach.
Takes me back the famous glove in the air when he dropped the puck into his net and cost the Avs the series against the Wings, even then he probably blamed someone else other than himself.
Don't get me wrong, Roy is a winner yes, he has won plenty as a player and a coach in the minors, but this isn't the minors, he needs to adapt to NHL as a coach, realize what works and what doesn't, but his stubbornness might just end up hurting this team in a long run.
Hey guys nucks fan here, I want a unbiased view on horvat. If any of you could tell me what you guys thought it would be appreciated! Btw I think you guys should be fine I still have you making the playoffs
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