NHLPA discussing with players postponing games in light of Kenosha incident

[Machinehead]

There are racists in this country. There are racists in EVERY country. I firmly believe this country is less racist than it has ever been and continues to try to make progress to make it a better place. Maybe that's blind optimism, but I don't think today's youth, especially, gives a flying crap what color anyone is. I certainly don't.

And, I'm sorry, but I agree that police officers aren't waking up planning to kill anyone, regardless of color, on any day they are going to work. It's the last thing they want to do. Do people make bad decisions under pressure? Certainly. People are far from perfect and some of those decisions will cost dearly. It will never be as good as it should be.

When white and black people commit a given crime at the same rate, black people are way more likely to be arrested and prosecuted for said crime. This is a fact.

The first law enforcement unit ever in the United States was established to catch slaves. The first official police department was established to bully striking immigrant workers. It has always existed for violence against oppressed people, period.

The discussion about whether individual officers are bad is tiresome and violently misses the point. We're talking about an institutional problem that has existed for 300 years and has seeped into the culture and training.

It's a different world and we need to reimagine how we police our society. This is an ice cold take and we'd get somewhere if we didn't deflect at the first hurdle.

 

[mas0764]

You make it seem like they shot him for no reason.

Here's the video below that shows why you don't let a suspect reach into their car.

And I'm pretty sure departments train with oversight on account of situations like this.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Having a different opinion doesn't make someone a racist. Having an opinion rooted in racism makes someone a racist.

And whose job is it to interpret what that really means? Things get misinterpreted & twisted all the time to fit a certain narrative. Not to defend Mike Milbury, because he's an idiot & awful at his job, but what he said about women being a distraction became a huge issue because we live in a society that is hell bent on being offended & finding scapegoats.

I fully accept that people don't see the world the way I do. However, by no stretch of the imagination does that mean I have to treat their opinion as factually accurate in cases where it isn't.

I'm not asking you to treat anyone's opinion as fact...I'm advocating more people accept that there's many ways to view a situation, & we're all entitled to share a reasonable opposing POV without coming under siege.

It's ok for people to support the players right to boycott games, & it's also ok to think politics & sports should remain separate like church & state. I'm not really sure why anyone would look to an athlete, actor, musician, etc to assist in their own moral compass in any way, but that's a different topic altogether.

 

[East Coast Bias]

The problem with split second decisions is that they aren’t made in a vacuum. The problem is what people think about others every other minute of the day. I’m an Irish catholic dude from suburban NYC. I’m around police all the time. IMO There’s a cultural problem. One on one off duty with friends who are police I don’t notice anything. But as soon as talk about “the job” starts something switches off. Mainly everyone is divided into good and bad. It’s very black and white, figuratively and literally. It’s a cultural and training problem. And it really isn’t just police. It’s a societal problem. The consequences are amplified with police though.

there’s a reason why players are doing this. Why this escalated. Part of it is one individual event. But a lot of it is the reaction to that event and how they see people who just don’t care. They’re fully aware that the PR stunts that have surrounded these restarts are just that. If you listen to some of the comments, it’s not really about one particular moment. Many players have spoken up about personal experiences. Sterling Brown’s experience has just as much to do with why the Bucks walked out as the shooting of Jacob Blake. They’re talking about how it starts with changing how you perceive and treat people every moment so you don’t get to this.

I would challenge to think deeper about this. It’s not about “this one guy”. It’s about viewing people differently and the awful consequences of that. Hopefully the NHL players are doing this because they believe in it. If not, it doesn’t help. Everyone can see right through owners and leagues trying to score points.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Okay, but say you let him use the taser once, and it somehow ends up hitting a cop in his chest or something?

So he had to be shot to death because he might've hit a cop in the chest with a taser that they let him get away from them

 

[Baby Duck Homme]

There are racists in this country. There are racists in EVERY country. I firmly believe this country is less racist than it has ever been and continues to try to make progress to make it a better place. Maybe that's blind optimism, but I don't think today's youth, especially, gives a flying crap what color anyone is. I certainly don't.

And, I'm sorry, but I agree that police officers aren't waking up planning to kill anyone, regardless of color, on any day they are going to work. It's the last thing they want to do. Do people make bad decisions under pressure? Certainly. People are far from perfect and some of those decisions will cost dearly. It will never be as good as it should be.

I agree with this but wanted to add that progress didn’t come without conflict and strife. Change came because people pushed for it at great cost. Every step of the way there were others who opposed them and fought to keep the status quo. I support change for the better not keeping things the same and certainly not reverting back to some mythical time when this country was better in the past if you happened to be the right gender or skin tone.

 

[Machinehead]

The problem with split second decisions is that they aren’t made in a vacuum. The problem is what people think about others every other minute of the day. I’m an Irish catholic dude from suburban NYC. I’m around police all the time. IMO There’s a cultural problem. One on one off duty with friends who are police I don’t notice anything. But as soon as talk about “the job” starts something switches off. Mainly everyone is divided into good and bad. It’s very black and white, figuratively and literally. It’s a cultural and training problem. And it really isn’t just police. It’s a societal problem. The consequences are amplified with police though.

there’s a reason why players are doing this. Why this escalated. Part of it is one individual event. But a lot of it is the reaction to that event and how they see people who just don’t care. They’re fully aware that the PR stunts that have surrounded these restarts are just that. If you listen to some of the comments, it’s not really about one particular moment. Many players have spoken up about personal experiences. Sterling Brown’s experience has just as much to do with why the Bucks walked out as the shooting of Jacob Blake. They’re talking about how it starts with changing how you perceive and treat people every moment so you don’t get to this.

I would challenge to think deeper about this. It’s not about “this one guy”. It’s about viewing people differently and the awful consequences of that. Hopefully the NHL players are doing this because they believe in it. If not, it doesn’t help. Everyone can see right through owners and leagues trying to score points.

This is exactly it right here.

 

[Boris Zubov]

if threads like this "divide" us that's f***ing great because I want nothing to do with some of you just waiting in the shadows to spew your racist sewage

Yeah, like "wow we're so divided" between people who think this is ok and people who don't. I'll stay divided, thanks.

So anyone who thinks games should continue as scheduled is a racist?

 

[mas0764]

There was more than one officer with Brooks no? They probably should've tased him then, or let him use the taser once, lots of options that aren't killing him

There were two officers. One was struck by the taser and apparently hit his head on the ground when he fell. The other officer was the one who shot Brooks after seeing Brooks deploy the taser on the first officer.

Brooks was running away from the officer when he was shot; and ideally we can continue to improve non-lethal weapons or training or something, but to just act like with the technology we have today that the police officers are "murderers," is being really, really obtuse. I think within the split-second decision making range we are talking about here that there is very little chance that the police officers are convicted and I'm not entirely sure that I would say I want them forbidden to use force in such a scenario. Maybe Brooks was an ok guy who didn't deserve to be shot but all the police know in the heat of that moment is that it's a criminal and in another scenario by letting him go they might be indirectly causing harm or death to another innocent civilian.

They have time and again RP'd scenarios like this and they are told from the top down, again with government having a hand in it, that this is the correct response to such criminality, or that it's at least within their discretion because it's that fine a line.

Easy to say: Let him go and catch him later. But what if your child was killed by Brooks while DUI in his way home? Just saying.

At some point the discussion has to move from sympathy for the shooting victim -- which we should still have! - but also towards the realization that not every cop shooting is black and white, and where there is resistance to LAWFUL arrest there has to be some sort of acknowledgment of consequence.

The police aren't being "the executioner." They are deploying force to protect others. People need to realize that such force is not just legal but probably moral in some circumstances before they choose to resist.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

So he had to be shot to death because he might've hit a cop in the chest with a taser that they let him get away from them

I would counter with what did Rayshard Brooks think might happen when he took a cops taser and ran off and aiming it at them? I mean, at some point, common sense has to kick in.

There may be a need for police reform, but their also has to be a need for people not to do what Rayshard Brooks did for example.

 

[Machinehead]

So anyone who thinks games should continue as scheduled is a racist?

Literally nobody said that. This is a bad faith comment and then you'll turn around and say "boo hoo such divisiveness in this climate."

I'm happy to explain my point as I've done for the last hour. That being said, I have no interest in reconciling with the notion that you deserved what was coming if you resist attest. That entirely contradicts a free society and is just a heartless comment. That's somebody's family. I don't care if they're a criminal.

 

[pbgoalie]

Hot take: you shouldn't get shot for being an idiot.

Hot take....at what point are police actually allowed to shoot
They have rap sheet
If they fight with police
Get tasered and keep battling
And then move towards their car (possibly carrying a knife ) at what point is it the person being arrested responsibility ?

and I am serious. Is there ANY time lethal force would be allowed? Does a cop have to be shot or wounded first? Or God forbid one of the spectators with their cameras?

I can admit I don’t understand a lot of The anger. I have had some very lousy police interactions that I believe were profiling mistakes, but nothing like a friend of mine who is Legit afraid of police and is a smart/successful man

I am certain there are some problems. I also believe a lot of the martyrs being used as a reason for riots do t seem like great people to get behind and that hurts the narrative

 

[Machinehead]

Hot take....at what point are police actually allowed to shoot
They have rap sheet
If they fight with police
Get tasered and keep battling
And then move towards their car (possibly carrying a knife ) at what point is it the person being arrested responsibility ?

and I am serious. Is there ANY time lethal force would be allowed? Does a cop have to be shot or wounded first? Or God forbid one of the spectators with their cameras?

I can admit I don’t understand a lot of The anger. I have had some very lousy police interactions that I believe were profiling mistakes, but nothing like a friend of mine who is Legit afraid of police and is a smart/successful man

I am certain there are some problems. I also believe a lot of the martyrs being used as a reason for riots do t seem like great people to get behind and that hurts the narrative

They're allowed to shoot when they're being shot at or about to be shot at.

The police should kill zero people who don't have firearms. Zero.

 

[mas0764]

Okay, but say you let him use the taser once, and it somehow ends up hitting a cop in his chest or something?

I believe Brooks did strike one of the officers with the taser and knocked him over.

From wikipedia:

At 11:23,[12] Rolfe told Brooks: "All right, I think you've had too much to drink to be driving. Put your hands behind your back for me";[15] he and Brosnan then moved behind Brooks to handcuff him.[10] Brooks tried to break free and he and the officers scuffled on the ground. During the struggle Brosnan drew his taser, but Brooks wrested it from him and fired it;[20] Brosnan says the taser contacted him and he struck his head on the pavement

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

They're allowed to shoot when they're being shot at or about to be shot at.

The police should kill zero people who don't have firearms. Zero.

So they don't have tasers in the US?

 

[Machinehead]

So they don't have tasers in the US?

Oh no they have those too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, police killings are single digits in Netherlands annually, right?

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

There were two officers. One was struck by the taser and apparently hit his head on the ground when he fell. The other officer was the one who shot Brooks after seeing Brooks deploy the taser on the first officer.

Brooks was running away from the officer when he was shot; and ideally we can continue to improve non-lethal weapons or training or something, but to just act like with the technology we have today that the police officers are "murderers," is being really, really obtuse. I think within the split-second decision making range we are talking about here that there is very little chance that the police officers are convicted and I'm not entirely sure that I would say I want them forbidden to use force in such a scenario. Maybe Brooks was an ok guy who didn't deserve to be shot but all the police know in the heat of that moment is that it's a criminal and in another scenario by letting him go they might be indirectly causing harm or death to another innocent civilian.

They have time and again RP'd scenarios like this and they are told from the top down, again with government having a hand in it, that this is the correct response to such criminality, or that it's at least within their discretion because it's that fine a line.

Easy to say: Let him go and catch him later. But what if your child was killed by Brooks while DUI in his way home? Just saying.

At some point the discussion has to move from sympathy for the shooting victim -- which we should still have! - but also towards the realization that not every cop shooting is black and white, and where there is resistance to LAWFUL arrest there has to be some sort of acknowledgment of consequence.

The police aren't being "the executioner." They are deploying force to protect others. People need to realize that such force is not just legal but probably moral in some circumstances before they choose to resist.

If they're at his car and he runs off, he's not driving home without getting back to the cops. And the bold kind of gets to the root of the problem, there's plenty of social workers who get trained in holds to restrain violent people and deescalate situations who aren't allowed to kill people in the heat of the moment

I would counter with what did Rayshard Brooks think might happen when he took a cops taser and ran off and aiming it at them? I mean, at some point, common sense has to kick in.

There may be a need for police reform, but their also has to be a need for people not to do what Rayshard Brooks did for example.

Maybe minorities wouldn't be so distrustful of cops if this wasn't true:

When white and black people commit a given crime at the same rate, black people are way more likely to be arrested and prosecuted for said crime. This is a fact.

The first law enforcement unit ever in the United States was established to catch slaves. The first official police department was established to bully striking immigrant workers. It has always existed for violence against oppressed people, period.

The discussion about whether individual officers are bad is tiresome and violently misses the point. We're talking about an institutional problem that has existed for 300 years and has seeped into the culture and training.

It's a different world and we need to reimagine how we police our society. This is an ice cold take and we'd get somewhere if we didn't deflect at the first hurdle.

 

[eco's bones]

Oh the 3 peaceful protestors he shot, the first chased him and threw a Molotov cocktail at him (he was also a convicted rapist who has a rap sheet longer than what comes up when you search EdJovo posts mentioning “Trouba”), the second was someone who was hitting him with a skateboard while he was on the ground, the third was literally pointing a pistol at him. (I can send you videos of every incident as it was unfolding, I saw this in real time on Twitter unfortunately)

So yea the violent mob like those guys, the ones who killed David Dorn, the ones who killed those black children in CHAZ, the ones who burned a man alive in his pawn shop in Minnesota, the ones who are burning down and destroying thousands of small businesses, I’d say those actions are pretty violent, no?

A high schooler has no business being in the middle of a riot with an automatic weapon (fact is a high schooler shouldn't have automatic weapons). There was no real reason for him to be there.....and whether one of his victims was a convicted rapist or not the high schooler would have had no foreknowledge of that and this guy's past doesn't justify what he did. Plain and simple he just shot somebody he'd never met and didn't know and this will follow him the rest of his life which might not be a very long one. What I see when I look at his picture is a boy (and actually the picture of him in the police uniform looks almost gender neutral) and I'm wondering how he's going to make it in prison because that is pretty much a sure bet where he is going to go. He's taken two lives and he's just ruined his own in doing it. So I don't see anything vindicative in this at all----all I see is a tragedy all the way around.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

So they don't have tasers in the US?

Police forces here buy a lot of military surplus that they don't need to have

 

[mas0764]

I also have to take issue with this notion that the underlying sentiment is "If you choose to resist arrest you deserve to get shot."

That is not what the prevailing logic is at all.

Police officers have a duty and in fact moral obligation to society to apprehend dangerous people before they can cause continued harm. I reject the concept that the only dangerous person is one who has a firearm at the exact moment of contact with police.

Resisting arrest when you have been identified as someone too dangerous to be allowed to go free carries potential consequences, and as a society seeking a balance between justice and safety we still have to acknowledge that reality. It does not mean they "deserve to be shot." It is the function of protecting society that dangerous persons have to be apprehended sometimes with the use of deadly force. To put a moratorium on any use of deadly force in all but a "shoot out" scenario is dangerously naive.

And again I will repeat that local and state government work hand in hand with police departments to set these policies and are thoroughly reviewed time and again, so the idea that adhering to these policies alone makes one a "murderer," is beyond my comprehension as well.

Discussion of what policies need to change is real but that is a slow change and not one that will change overnight, and furthermore, I do not think it is a good thing to thoroughly forbid police use of force.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Oh no they have those too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, police killings are single digits in Netherlands annually, right?

Annual killings by law enforcement officers (per 10 million people):
USA: 34.8
Netherlands: 2.3
Finland: 1.8
Sweden: 1.0
Germany: 1.3
Belgium: 1.7

Highest annual number of killings in the last 10 years (raw numbers):
United States: 1276 (2010)
Netherlands: 5 (2013)
Finland: 3 (2016)
Sweden: 6 (2018)
Germany: 14 (2017)
Belgium: 7 (2014)


PS: The 1276 for the US, were the lowest in a single year the last decade, not the highest

Seriously, the first list is the one you want for a useful comparison. Per capita numbers

 

[Boris Zubov]

Literally nobody said that. This is a bad faith comment and then you'll turn around and say "boo hoo such divisiveness in this climate."

I'm happy to explain my point as I've done for the last hour. That being said, I have no interest in reconciling with the notion that you deserved what was coming if you resist attest. That entirely contradicts a free society and is just a heartless comment. That's somebody's family. I don't care if they're a criminal.

You're right, nobody said that. I was speaking in hypotheticals. But I'm the last guy you'll ever meet that will "boohoo" to anyone. Especially you. I'm just tired of the racist label being handed out like candy on Halloween.

I'm not getting into the police part of this, because I see both sides of the argument. We obviously need police reform, but we also need societal reform. If you think we're better off being divided, great..but in the meantime, the only thing we're building is more hate, violence & distrust of one another.

 

[pbgoalie]

They're allowed to shoot when they're being shot at or about to be shot at.

The police should kill zero people who don't have firearms. Zero.

Ok. thanks....
So, ALLEGEDLY
Mr Blake was heard to say he was going for his gun....if it turns out he was going for a weapon, does it change the tenor of this?

Thanks for responses. I don't have too many answers but do have questions

 

[mrmovies779]

This thread here is a perfect and sad reminder of how f***ed up our society is.It kills me.it kills me more that blatant abuse of power and racism continues in this country with no sign of slowing down anytime soon.This is a society i wish my kids didnt have to grow up into.

 

[will1066]

May I suggest opening up police departments to allow ordinary citizens to join, with accelerated, dedicated training programs at the police academies? I call this program Citizens On Patrol.