NHL Board of Governors to approve opening of expansion process; Atlanta and Houston believed to be leading candidates

[hangman005]

Idk about the first time around, but the second time wasn't the fault of the fans or a lack of profitability. New owners didn't want them, no one at the time willing to keep them in ATL.

Well there were local groups from my understanding, but the owners who didn't want them also didn't want anyone who did want them have them playing in their arena, I don't know if they would straight out not rent to them or the conditions so awful it was a non starter. f*** the Atlanta Spirit Group.

 

[SEALBound]

hope this leads to relegation eventually. that's the only way the product will actually stay elite.

there are already too many teams

It would be interesting to see if they make any changes to the playoff structure. I hate the current structure and would love a return to 1-8 but a short round to decide the WCs would be an interesting addition.

I'm not for relegation and I doubt the league would be either. You don't want Bedard and the Blackhawks relegated to the...AHL? No, you want him and that team in the NHL.

While 32-36 teams dilutes the product a bit, the worst NHL team would still wreck the average or even best AHL team. Unless you wanted to do something like a 20 team elite league and a 16 team b-league. 20 teams in the elite league vie for the Stanley Cup. 16 teams in the b-league vie for the Bettman Cup.

I'll be ducking the objects thrown at me now.

 

[Ceremony]

Artificially inflate revenues via expansion fees while keeping ticket, concession, merchandise and viewing packages prohibitively expensive while making every team less likely to win anything. Neato! Fabulous idea.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

hope this leads to relegation eventually. that's the only way the product will actually stay elite.

there are already too many teams

Owners would never agree to this in a million billion years

 

[Tawnos]

Well there were local groups from my understanding, but the owners who didn't want them also didn't want anyone who did want them have them playing in their arena, I don't know if they would straight out not rent to them or the conditions so awful it was a non starter. f*** the Atlanta Spirit Group.

This exactly. An ownership group essentially bought the Thrashers in bad faith because they wanted the Hawks and the arena. Without another suitable arena in the market, there was no choice but for them to leave. It had little to do with the strength of market itself.

 

[LeafGrief]

The Ponzi Scheme is out of control.

 

[Canadienna]

I remember the opposition to Las Vegas and Seattle (Especially Vegas) during last expansions

The "talent will be diluted" and "Vegas will be another Coyotes" sure proved to be wrong

NHL is at its strongest its ever been. 2-4 more teams will only further grow league and improve it

I don't get when people try to argue it "won't" dilute talent. Of course the Vegas and Seattle expansions diluted talent.

It's basic math. There are 40 roster spots that didn't exist prior to those expansions.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Well there were local groups from my understanding, but the owners who didn't want them also didn't want anyone who did want them have them playing in their arena, I don't know if they would straight out not rent to them or the conditions so awful it was a non starter. f*** the Atlanta Spirit Group.

Exactly, no disrespect to Arizona fans but it's crazy that they still get time to find owners for another franchise after 20+ of the same problems but ATL didn't.

 

[EXTRAS]

People like high scoring hockey. This provides high scoring hockey. If we moved to 36 teams by say 2028, I wouldn't be surprised to see gretzkys single season goal/pt records broken in the next few years.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

If Atlanta gets a third team it should be good news for Quebec City

 

[Lt Frank Drebin]

Adding a few more expansion teams makes sense. The NHL is only in 25 US markets. The other major sports leagues have more American teams. The AHL is more talented than it’s ever been. AHL players are barely discernible from NHL players. The skill in the NHL won’t be diluted much. Nobody noticed a difference when they went from 30 to 32 teams. Houston will have a solid fanbase if Dallas is any indication and anyone doubting Atlanta needs to do some research on why the Thrashers left. It wasn’t because of the market. Both teams would have solid fanbases. I assume they would expand the playoffs with a wild card series. Expansion grows the sport and that’s the most important thing.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

80 Teams. Here me out. 40 in the top league and 40 in the minors. Hear me out. 2 games against the other 39 teams for a total of 78. Hear me out. Bottom 10 of the top league and top 10 of minors swap places the next season.

Profit.

 

[FMichael]

They could obviously support it but even with the Canadian dollar issue aside, I genuinely do think between the weather, taxes and Quebec's aggressive pushback against anglophones they might never sign a non Quebecois free agent. I suppose some of the euros would like it as it might feel closest to home

And I seem to recall some time ago Bruins owner Jacobs wasn't too keen on doing business with a group that had ties with the separatist movement...He has sway among the BoG.

 

[HockeyScotty]

I've always wondered about Milwaukee or Green Bay

I agree as well, but it appears that the Chicago Blackhawks strongly consider it part of their territory. Not sure how formal that would be or what type of indemnity they would ask for.

I think Phoenix is still going to get a chance if an ownership group steps up and gets an arena going; then the 36th team is really up in the air. Market-wise the best ones remaining from a demographic perspective require some territorial impingement (using metro area GDP in US$ and DMA size):

Hamilton/GTA - (Toronto/Buffalo)
San Francisco - (San Jose)
Milwaukee - (Chicago)
Baltimore - (Washington/Philadelphia)
Cleveland - (Columbus/Pittsburgh)
Hartford - (NYC2 + Boston)
Cincinatti - (Columbus)
Providence -(Boston)

Best stand-alone American cities:
San Diego
Portland
Austin
Sacramento
Indianapolis
Orlando
San Antonio
Charlotte
Kansas City
Jacksonville
Oklahoma City
New Orleans
Memphis

Best Canadien city: Quebec City

 

[PaulD]

Water down that league.
One great line per team!

34 teams ......20 great goalies !

 

[Viqsi]

Idk about the first time around, but the second time wasn't the fault of the fans or a lack of profitability. New owners didn't want them, no one at the time willing to keep them in ATL.

The bolded is subtly incorrect. There were many interested parties, some of which were quite serious and capable of putting in the cash, but the owners in question also owned and controlled the arena, and were quoting deliberately ruinous fees for any future Thrashers owners to make any use of it. It was deliberately sabotaged and there was nothing the NHL or anyone else could do short of, say, getting the goverment to force a sale of the arena or something similarly abusive and extreme.

Atlanta Spirit Group deliberately killed the Thrashers because they didn't want the competition with their basketball team. Wouldn't even have bought the Thrashers except that they were obliged to do so in a package to get the basketball team to begin with.

 

[The Marquis]

I can't believe Atlanta is any serious discussion. I say go to KC before giving Atlanta a chance at a 3rd failure.

Houston makes a bit of sense. Wonder if you could make somewhere like Boise, ID work to try to capitalize on the rocky mountain region?

Boise is half the size of Quebec City both in city and metro populations. If Quebec City isn't making it, Boise shouldn't be anywhere near the discussion.

Atlanta is fine, but they are going to have to rebrand. The Thrashers are a tainted brand with not much of a desire to see return. It is cool and the branding was very original, but its tainted. This isn't Winnipeg where the day they left, everybody in the city wanted them back.

The biggest US markets (all bigger than all the available Canadian markets as well as Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg) without an NHL team are:

Houston, Texas (5)
Atlanta, Georgia (6)
Phoenix, Arizona (lol) (10)
Riverside, California (12) - Probably within the Kings or Ducks exclusive area
San Francisco, California (13) - Certainly within the exclusive area of the Sharks
San Diego, California (18)
Baltimore, Maryland (20) - I'm guessing is within the Caps exclusive area
Orlando, Florida (21)
Charlotte, North Carolina (22)
San Antonio, Texas (24)
Portland, Oregon (25)
Austin, Texas (26)
Sacramento, California (28)
Cincinnati, Ohio (30)
Kansas City, Missouri (31)
Cleveland, Ohio (33)
Indianapolis, Indiana (34)


I figure I'll stop there, but there are 9 NHL markets smaller than all of these. Edmonton (Would be 43), Calgary (Would be 42), Raleigh (41), Ottawa (Would be 42), Winnipeg (Would be 72), Salt Lake City (46), San Jose (36, but it has San Francisco very close), Nashville (35), and Buffalo (50).

There are a lot of options and some of them already have suitable arenas.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Owners want to ram expansions through before the next CBA so they can say there’s no future expansion coming and they don’t have to negotiate over expansion fees as part of HRR.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Artificially inflate revenues via expansion fees while keeping ticket, concession, merchandise and viewing packages prohibitively expensive while making every team less likely to win anything. Neato! Fabulous idea.

It's not really artificially inflated if you're keeping things prohibitively expensive and the consumer is still buying it...

 

[Tawnos]

I don't get when people try to argue it "won't" dilute talent. Of course the Vegas and Seattle expansions diluted talent.

It's basic math. There are 40 roster spots that didn't exist prior to those expansions.

The math isn't that basic. Those 40 roster spots only really dilute the talent if there were no players outside of the league talented enough to be in it.

It's more complicated than you're portraying it. It isn't really just about total number of jobs either. Is there really a huge difference between your average 4th liner in the NHL and average 1st liner in the AHL right now? No. And then you have the issue of players getting boxed out of larger roles. William Karlsson is the poster child for players in the league being blocked by established talent, then showing what he's capable of given the opportunity. There's more of that around the league, I'm sure of it. It isn't so simple.

 

[SEALBound]

Boise is half the size of Quebec City both in city and metro populations. If Quebec City isn't making it, Boise shouldn't be anywhere near the discussion.

Atlanta is fine, but they are going to have to rebrand. The Thrashers are a tainted brand with not much of a desire to see return. It is cool and the branding was very original, but its tainted. This isn't Winnipeg where the day they left, everybody in the city wanted them back.

The biggest US markets (all bigger than all the available Canadian markets as well as Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg) without an NHL team are:

Houston, Texas (5)
Atlanta, Georgia (6)
Phoenix, Arizona (lol) (10)
Riverside, California (12) - Probably within the Kings or Ducks exclusive area
San Francisco, California (13) - Certainly within the exclusive area of the Sharks
San Diego, California (18)
Baltimore, Maryland (20) - I'm guessing is within the Caps exclusive area
Orlando, Florida (21)
Charlotte, North Carolina (22)
San Antonio, Texas (24)
Portland, Oregon (25)
Austin, Texas (26)
Sacramento, California (28)
Cincinnati, Ohio (30)
Kansas City, Missouri (31)
Cleveland, Ohio (33)
Indianapolis, Indiana (34)


I figure I'll stop there, but there are 9 NHL markets smaller than all of these. Edmonton (Would be 43), Calgary (Would be 42), Raleigh (41), Ottawa (Would be 42), Winnipeg (Would be 72), Salt Lake City (46), San Jose (36, but it has San Francisco very close), Nashville (35), and Buffalo (50).

There are a lot of options and some of them already have suitable arenas.

Metro size is important, sure but look at Atlanta in the past - HUGE metro and they've lost two teams due to lack of interest. Flordia struggled with attendance. Even Anaheim isn't selling out the area. Neither is San Jose. But if you can get a smaller market when hockey is underserved and underrepresented and you don't have to compete with other professional teams, you can build that base.

 

[Canadienna]

The math isn't that basic. Those 40 roster spots only really dilute the talent if there were no players outside of the league talented enough to be in it.

Actually even if they were "talented enough to be in it" there clearly weren't 40 players as talented as the players they took from other teams.

Otherwise why have an expansion draft.

You can also look at it this way. If Vegas and Seattle folded, would other teams not get better by way of picking up their best players?

 

[vancityluongo]

Unless you wanted to do something like a 20 team elite league and a 16 team b-league. 20 teams in the elite league vie for the Stanley Cup. 16 teams in the b-league vie for the Bettman Cup.

I'll be ducking the objects thrown at me now.

this would have to be the format

european sports have this premise. a bedard-led team should be able to get to the A league within a couple years

Owners would never agree to this in a million billion years

agreed

but there's a way to pitch it*

double (?) the cap for the higher league, no cap floor for the lower league. you don't think owners of teams naturally rebuilding would be thrilled to not have to overpay for vets just to lose 55 games a year? the b-league teams playing only each other should be fairly competitive. parity on steroids.

meanwhile the a-league is basically an 8 month playoff

*i have less than zero faith in the NHL as is exists to pull it off

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

If Atlanta gets a third team it should be good news for Quebec City

QC is the cute girl the NHL hangs around for no other reason than to make the hottie they actually wanna bang jealous.

 

[Tawnos]

Actually even if they were "talented enough to be in it" there clearly weren't 40 players as talented as the players they took from other teams.

Otherwise why have an expansion draft.

You can also look at it this way. If Vegas and Seattle folded, would other teams not get better by way of picking up their best players?

Only marginally. I expanded on my point in an edit to that post. If you already have 9 quality top-9 forwards, adding a 10th isn't really going to move the needle for your team.