Proposal: NHL 20 Style Trade Between Penguins and Canes
- Thread starter Empoleon8771
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GIN ANTONIC
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The value favors Carolina a little bit. Fleury and McCann are roughly equivalent. Staal at full price goes in a soft deal; for the purpose of the asset by asset comparison, perhaps Staal and Hallander cancel out. Murray is more valuable than Mrazek, but not to a significant extent under the circumstances. A 2nd from Carolina may balance things out.
I don't see the Canes doing that, though. In a different phase of the competitive cycle, getting out of Staal's contract would be appealing. However, this is not a club looking for a shakeup. It's a young team learning how to compete with the truly elite in the league. Completely gutting the veteran leadership (Faulk is gone and Williams may not come back this time) is not something they should be doing, imo.
I don't see the Canes doing that, though. In a different phase of the competitive cycle, getting out of Staal's contract would be appealing. However, this is not a club looking for a shakeup. It's a young team learning how to compete with the truly elite in the league. Completely gutting the veteran leadership (Faulk is gone and Williams may not come back this time) is not something they should be doing, imo.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
It's interesting you think this, because I asked Penguins fans on the Pens board about this as well and I got like 6 yeses and 1 maybe
But I do get what you're saying, this is a pretty substantial move by Carolina solely because Staal is their captain. The appeal for Staal on the Penguins is that it finally gives them a difference maker at 3C, one they can lean on heavily defensively, plus there's the familiarity both between Staal and Pittsburgh and JR and Staal. I can understand if Carolina wouldn't be ready to move him, though.
My first gut reaction was that Pittsburgh was getting the better of the deal but it's close. It really doesn't make sense for Pittsburgh to take on Staal's contract with $6 million per. Like other's have mentioned, that's a lot for a third line center unless he can play wing or the Pens are going to flip him with retention. Or simply do a three way deal with a bit of retention from both Carolina and Pittsburgh.
My personal taste is that I like Mrazek more than Murray because of the uncertainty of what Matt will sign for on his next contract. But Murray does have 2 Stanley Cup rings.
However, saying that, it's one of the better trade proposals on the site.
My personal taste is that I like Mrazek more than Murray because of the uncertainty of what Matt will sign for on his next contract. But Murray does have 2 Stanley Cup rings.
However, saying that, it's one of the better trade proposals on the site.
Nikishin Go Boom
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Im not doing that deal as a Canes fan. Murray isn’t worth it. Keep the cheaper inconsistent goalie.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
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I don't know much about Hallander, so for me to say what side it favors is a bit speculative but I didn't get a feeling that the deal favored Carolina. I'm also not very high on McCann given the make-up of the Canes today and feel he's "more of the same and not enough to move a needle" so that's a piece of it.
Jordan Staal, even with that salary is still the best player in this deal IMO.
Pittsburgh gets rid of a goalie they can't keep. They get a young, NHL defensemen who has really started to come along and is an area of need for them, and Jordan Staal.
Canes get a 3rd liner that is nice, but IMO, similar to what we have, a slight upgrade in net (maybe more than slight depending on which Murray we get), and a prospect and gets free of Staal's NMC.
Seems to favor Pens IMO, but I may be underrating Hallander and it all depends on what Murray the Canes get and what he may then sign for.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
If he is, it's not by a significant margin and he also has the worst contract. Staal has a pace of 13 goals and 38 points per 82 games in the last 2 years, while McCann has a pace of 19 goals and 40 points. Staal probably just had a down year and is still a 20 goal, 45 point player per 82 games, but I wouldn't say that he's the significantly best player in here. It's close. I'm not including goalies in this comparison either, because comparing goalies to skaters is difficult.
Hallander is a former 2nd round prospect with a similar upside to McCann, a middle-6 LW or C. He looks like a pretty good bet to hit that upside, he's been very good in the SHL as an 18 and 19 year old. I think McCann for Fleury is fair, the Canes would need to add a little bit (probably like a 2nd or 3rd) to Mrazek to get Murray and the Penguins would need to add a bit (probably like a 2nd or 3rd) to Hallander to get Staal. This deal looks fairly even based on that.
I don’t like the fit. I was approaching this purely in terms of value. I’m bullish on Fleury, but right now, he’s not worth much more than McCann due to track record. An acquiring team doesn’t have to sign Murray to term. A 1 year deal may be prudent to see how he rebounds. That’s worth more than 1 year of Mrazek.
To me, Staal has little to no trade value. I can buy the point that he’s the best player in the deal, His contract makes him one of the least valuable assets in the deal, though. It’s hidden in the broader trade, but this doesn’t require retention or an undesirable contract coming back the other way. That’s the true value. There was shock at how little Subban at full price went for last Summer. Nashville only had so many options to get out of his contract clean and that dragged down the return. The flat cap adds complexity to the possibility of Carolina doing that with Staal or any team doing that with a comparable.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
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I do understand the comment about Staal and his contract and don't think he has a lot of trade value, but I was approaching this from why you do trades. Essentially, you do a trade to make your team better, both in the short and long term, so I was looking at it in terms of fit, as value isn't in a vacuum and fit affects value.
I don't feel the Canes are better unless Murray is substantially better than Reimer/Mrazek were this year. Down the middle, the Canes now have Aho, Trocheck, and McCann? Woof. If we thought a team like Boston bullied us with what we had, it would be much worse.
I don't mind moving on from Staal and I don't expect a huge return for him, but this one would make my head scratch.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
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Looking only at points to evaluate Staal is missing most of what he brings, as you Pens fans know. Staal, by far, faced the toughest competition and had the most D zone draws and yet he excelled at carrying the play while he was on the ice and being great at faceoffs. Yep, he's not a scoring threat and is overpaid, but he's still good at what he does. McCann faced some of the weakest competition on the Pens and got more O-zone starts and was a poor possession player. Put McCann in Staal's role in Carolina and I bet he'd have failed miserably. Adding Staal to Pittsburgh frees up Malkin and Crosby to take on more favorable match-ups. McCann can't do that.
I agree with leaving goalies out, but I think Staal is a vastly better player than McCann right now. I also do agree he has the worst contract, which plays into the valuation.
In a vacuum, you are probably right (or at least close). I don't think it's fairly even if you don't consider team needs maybe and does the trade make a team better. I think Pittsburgh would be much better with Staal and Fleury over McCann and a prospect (and you don't need Murray due to Jarry). Canes get worse at forward (nobody currently on the team or McCann can step up and take on the tough match-ups) and D, and unless Murray plays at an extremely high level worse overall.
On top of that, we already assume we are going to lose one defensemen (Bean or Fleury or Skjei) in the expansion draft.
I have no problem trading Staal and I don't expect his value to be great. I have no problem trading Fleury either. My main point is that it needs to be a good fit and make the team better if they are going to make such moves and this all would ride on Murray being substantially better.
SvechneJerk
Christ is King
What about a deal centered around Staal & Hornqvist? Net-front presence, that plays with an edge - which we obviously need more of. Go to Tampa to see if we can get one of Johnson/Cirelli? Aho, TyJo/Cirelli, Trocheck, Geekie down the middle. Yes/no?
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Any desire I'd have to see Staal in a Penguins jersey again is soundly squashed by the cap hit. A third line with Staal & Hörnqvist's contracts on it is just untenable at this stage of their careers with the cap situation being faced.
Staal at his cap hit is a luxury item. As much as I love a good luxury item on occasion, you can't go looking for them when you have $20 in your bank account.
That sucks on the Canes side too as Staal is still a damn good player, but his cap hit in a flat cap situation basically saps his trade value. I think this trade is fair, but that doesn't mean I think it necessarily makes sense. If the cap were going to be what everyone was expecting it to be back in February then going for Staal to fix the third line may well be on the table, but without it you're likely looking at teams having to trade similar money. The cost of going that heavy on third line cap hits would be the need for a bargain basement 1b/back-up goalie and Mrazek is more of a market value 1b/back-up goalie. Mrazek is most definitely better than DeSmith, but is he $2m in cap space you don't have better?
Hörnqvist has a year remaining on his full NMC, but if he was willing to waive it I'd imagine there'd be interest from Pittsburgh's side. I love me some Hörny and he's still effective at what he's always been effective at, you just also have to remember that he was never the best skater and he's 33. He most definitely has hockey left in the tank and his production remains relatively consistent at a per game basis even as his role has diminished, but he's more of a situational player now than before (though I'd have to imagine him being a better fit in Carolina's top six in a pinch than he is in Pittsburgh's as both Sid & Geno pretty much require linemates that can keep pace, which pushes Hörnqvist to a third line with no identity even if he's significantly better than at least on player above him on the RW depth chart (Simon, Sheary, pretty much every speedy nothing there to take a perfect pass and shoot it 5 feet wide since Pascal Dupuis randomly became the ideal third wheel for a few years).
Staal at his cap hit is a luxury item. As much as I love a good luxury item on occasion, you can't go looking for them when you have $20 in your bank account.
That sucks on the Canes side too as Staal is still a damn good player, but his cap hit in a flat cap situation basically saps his trade value. I think this trade is fair, but that doesn't mean I think it necessarily makes sense. If the cap were going to be what everyone was expecting it to be back in February then going for Staal to fix the third line may well be on the table, but without it you're likely looking at teams having to trade similar money. The cost of going that heavy on third line cap hits would be the need for a bargain basement 1b/back-up goalie and Mrazek is more of a market value 1b/back-up goalie. Mrazek is most definitely better than DeSmith, but is he $2m in cap space you don't have better?
Hörnqvist has a year remaining on his full NMC, but if he was willing to waive it I'd imagine there'd be interest from Pittsburgh's side. I love me some Hörny and he's still effective at what he's always been effective at, you just also have to remember that he was never the best skater and he's 33. He most definitely has hockey left in the tank and his production remains relatively consistent at a per game basis even as his role has diminished, but he's more of a situational player now than before (though I'd have to imagine him being a better fit in Carolina's top six in a pinch than he is in Pittsburgh's as both Sid & Geno pretty much require linemates that can keep pace, which pushes Hörnqvist to a third line with no identity even if he's significantly better than at least on player above him on the RW depth chart (Simon, Sheary, pretty much every speedy nothing there to take a perfect pass and shoot it 5 feet wide since Pascal Dupuis randomly became the ideal third wheel for a few years).
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DarthProbert
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If there's one thing holding Carolina back, it's their need for ANOTHER goalie with question marks who may or may not need a change of scenery or may or may not be a flash in the pan who's done(Mrazek, Reimer, Darling, Ward...)
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Will Canes fans threaten him daily for not being Cam Ward?
I definitely get the concerns around Murray, but nothing that is wrong with his game is unfixable. Moving somewhere where half of the fan base doesn't vilify him for not being the guy who kept blowing it in the playoffs will be the greatest possible boon to his career moving forward. The glove hand will prevent him from reaching that elite potential he once had, but it's not that bad that he can't be an above average starter making an All-Star team or two.
I still have a ton of faith in Matt Murray, but I do not think he's going to reach that potential in Pittsburgh with the way the well has been poisoned by shitty yinzers. The kid lost his father while fans were mad at him for pushing Fleury out despite winning those Cups...that's going to prey on anyone's psyche.
From a Carolina pov...yeah, I definitely would get the pause on a goalie that needs fixed...but there's not that much work that needs to be done. Don't boo the kid all the time and get him to redouble work on the glove hand and you have a good (10-15 range) starter who has shown the ability to get hot for long stretches and can't be blamed for his teams failures (if Jarry starts the series for the Pens and the team in front of him plays the same way they did in that series, Montreal still wins. The tape is often more kind to Murray than the stats, which will happen when Jack Johnson is playing nearly 20 minutes a night in front of you...nearly every goal Montreal scored involves Jack Johnson running into a teammate leaving 1-2 Habs wide open right in front of the net). He's still shown multiple dominant stretches in Pittsburgh through this that shows the potential to be a damn good starter in this league. IMO Murray still has a higher ceiling than Jarry and the biggest reason I'm on the roll with Jarry side simply comes down to thinking Murray needs a fresh start to reach it again.
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GIN ANTONIC
Registered User
I’d like to see Horn on the Canes but we kind of need him in ADDITION to Staal to play that heavy checking game.
Ideally would be looking to move out Nino, Dzingel, Gardiner, Skjei to make the cap work. also could move one or both of Mrazek/Reimer to other teams to clear cap if we change up our goalie situation.
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DarthProbert
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Some big ol mess of a deal involving Murray and Hornqvist one way and Neidereitter, Dzingle and Gardiner the other, with other pieces to balance it out, works for me from a Carolina POV.
GIN ANTONIC
Registered User
Do you play the game with no salary cap? It’s unrealistic to the point of like why are we even discussing.
Staal doesn’t look good anymore also. Not interested in him
Staal doesn’t look good anymore also. Not interested in him
BHD
Here comes Skinner
The Canes already have enough McCann type players (think Haula and Dzingel). He'll score a bunch of goals and then disappear for a couple months. Plus, he (an RFA) will probably ask for more than the Canes would pay.
Darren McCord
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- Dec 15, 2015
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I say no if I am the pens, but I am high on Hallander. I think he can be a decent 3rd line center sooner than later since he plays in the SHL with ok numbers. I wonder if the NHL starts late and he has a strong start if he would come over. If he could be a younger Staal light I would rather save the 5 million in cap.
