Next season: McDavid/Matthews vs Ovechkin/Crosby

[Ace of Hades]

Ovi and Crosby.

If you switched Matthews with MacKinnon, I wouldve voted for the youngsters.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Matthews is better than Ovechkin so I don't see how that is the case.

Uh no he isnt.

Ovechkin>Matthews.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Matthews is getting massively underrated here. It's likely he'll be the 3rd best player in the group next season, and possibly even 2nd. Pretending he's several tiers behind Ovechkin makes zero sense

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Matthews is getting massively underrated here. It's likely he'll be the 3rd best player in the group next season, and possibly even 2nd. Pretending he's several tiers behind Ovechkin makes zero sense

And you just swung the pendulum in the opposite direction with this post.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

And you just swung the pendulum in the opposite direction with this post.

No I didn't

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No I didn't

You say he's underrated, then go on to proclaim it is "likely" -- not just possibly, not just maybe, but LIKELY -- he will be the 3rd best, possibily even 2nd best, player from this group this season. That is overrating him when he hasn't even proven he can match Crosby/Ovechkin's production, let alone surpass it.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You say he's underrated, then go on to proclaim it is "likely" -- not just possibly, not just maybe, but LIKELY -- he will be the 3rd best, possibily even 2nd best, player from this group this season. That is overrating him when he hasn't even proven he can match Crosby/Ovechkin's production, let alone surpass it.

Well, it is a lot closer to reality that Matthews has a good shot at being better than Ovechkin than that he's multiple tiers behind

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Well, it is a lot closer to reality that Matthews has a good shot at being better than Ovechkin than that he's multiple tiers behind

But you also said possibly 2nd best. So in a post complaining about underrating Matthews, you not only proclaim he'll *likely* be better than Ovechkin, but *possibly* Crosby as well. You don't see how that's shifting the pendulum in the other direction too much?

At some point, Matthews needs to actually achieve these results you guys predict for him in order for him to actually be ahead of guys like Ovechkin and Crosby, who actually achieve these results. At some point, "he paced for this" or "if only Babcock wasn't such a meanie" only holds so much weight.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

But you also said possibly 2nd best. So in a post complaining about underrating Matthews, you not only proclaim he'll *likely* be better than Ovechkin, but *possibly* Crosby as well. You don't see how that's shifting the pendulum in the other direction too much?

At some point, Matthews needs to actually achieve these results you guys predict for him in order for him to actually be ahead of guys like Ovechkin and Crosby, who actually achieve these results. At some point, "he paced for this" or "if only Babcock wasn't such a meanie" only holds so much weight.

So unless I say it's impossible Matthews has a better year than Crosby, it's excessively overreacting him? Geez, I didn't even say he could be better than McDavid

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So unless I say it's impossible Matthews has a better year than Crosby, it's excessively overreacting him? Geez, I didn't even say he could be better than McDavid

You said it is likely he's better than Ovechkin. That's the first part where your post comes across as overrating him because you're essentially saying it's a given. Not overrating him would have been saying he MIGHT be better than Ovechkin, if he stays healthy, or something. When you start talking about "likely" you're coming across as talking in foregone conclusions.

As for being better than Crosby, again, what evidence is there that he will be this coming season? It's not the fact you're expected to say it's impossible, it's the fact you're talking as though it's a decent possibility he will be despite the fact there has been zero indication to this point that he will be.

That's where the overrating comes in. Could he? Sure, but to argue it as a defense of Matthews being "underrated" seems silly because there's nothing he's done up to this point to suggest people ranking him a distant 4th is wrong.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You said it is likely he's better than Ovechkin. That's the first part where your post comes across as overrating him because you're essentially saying it's a given. Not overrating him would have been saying he MIGHT be better than Ovechkin, if he stays healthy, or something. When you start talking about "likely" you're coming across as talking in foregone conclusions.

As for being better than Crosby, again, what evidence is there that he will be this coming season? It's not the fact you're expected to say it's impossible, it's the fact you're talking as though it's a decent possibility he will be despite the fact there has been zero indication to this point that he will be.

That's where the overrating comes in. Could he? Sure, but to argue it as a defense of Matthews being "underrated" seems silly because there's nothing he's done up to this point to suggest people ranking him a distant 4th is wrong.

If you're interpreting "likely" as "foregone conclusion" and "a given" then I can see why you would think that way, but that was not a guarantee at all. And yes, saying he's likely to be a very distant 4th is pretty inaccurate

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If you're interpreting "likely" as "foregone conclusion" and "a given" then I can see why you would think that way, but that was not a guarantee at all. And yes, saying he's likely to be a very distant 4th is pretty inaccurate

Why's that?

Player A - 35 goals, 100 points (2nd Hart, 4th Selke, 2nd all-star center)
Player B - 51 goals, 89 points (Rocket winner, 1st all-star wing)
Player C - 37 goals, 73 points (zero awards or nominations)

You don't think there's a gap between the first two and the third?

Obviously there's a possibility there won't be a gap, and he's got the potential to close that gap. But you seem to be acting indignant that people would consider there to be a gap right now until he actually proves there isn't.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Why's that?

Player A - 35 goals, 100 points (2nd Hart, 4th Selke, 2nd all-star center)
Player B - 51 goals, 89 points (Rocket winner, 1st all-star wing)
Player C - 37 goals, 73 points (zero awards or nominations)

You don't think there's a gap between the first two and the third?

Obviously there's a possibility there won't be a gap, and he's got the potential to close that gap. But you seem to be acting indignant that people would consider there to be a gap right now until he actually proves there isn't.

If you want to answer the question by taking the stance that Matthews will get injured and therefore score fewer points, you're missing the spirit of the question

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Matthews is getting massively underrated here. It's likely he'll be the 3rd best player in the group next season, and possibly even 2nd. Pretending he's several tiers behind Ovechkin makes zero sense

We've been hearing "it's likely" for Matthews every year. Until he actually does it it's all fantasy and pretty foolish to pick him over proven AST, hart caliber players. And no one said he's "several tiers" behind.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Matthews is better than Ovechkin so I don't see how that is the case.

 

[895]

I think if you're arguing with a Pens fan and he's taking Ovechkin's side, you're probably wrong.

 

[Varan]

actual production >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myths, fantasies, and "on pace-for" arguments

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If you want to answer the question by taking the stance that Matthews will get injured and therefore score fewer points, you're missing the spirit of the question

1-So we're back to the "on pace" argument for why Matthews is on par (or will surpass) two guys with actual superior production.

2-Even if you used Matthews' "per 82" stats, he falls below both guys. And that's assuming he actually keeps up that pace. His pace over like 60 games (ie. anything outside his hot 7 game start) is actually BELOW a point per game, I believe. So who is to say that if Matthews played all 82 games, he'd actually have finished with his projected ~88 points?

Again, just to clarify because we've kind of veered a bit.

1-I'm saying it's a bit strange you don't see how you're swinging the pendulum toward overrating Matthews when you think people are underrating Matthews because they believe he's the 4th best player in this poll, and some believe by a decent gap, all while saying it's likely he'll surpass Ovechkin and possibly even Crosby by this next season.

2-I'm asking why you think, BASED ON ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why it's seen as underrating Matthews to suggest he's 4th on the list out of the 4 guys in this poll, and based on ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why people shouldn't suggest there's a decent gap.

3-Final clarification being I'm not even saying it's 100% impossible Matthews won't surpass Crosby or Ovechkin this season. I'm just saying that, RIGHT NOW BASED ON ACTUAL RESULTS, I don't see how it's underrating him to have him placed 4th and by a bit of a gap behind 3 individuals (including McDavid since he's in the poll) who actually have proven results.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

1-So we're back to the "on pace" argument for why Matthews is on par (or will surpass) two guys with actual superior production.

2-Even if you used Matthews' "per 82" stats, he falls below both guys. And that's assuming he actually keeps up that pace. His pace over like 60 games (ie. anything outside his hot 7 game start) is actually BELOW a point per game, I believe. So who is to say that if Matthews played all 82 games, he'd actually have finished with his projected ~88 points?

Again, just to clarify because we've kind of veered a bit.

1-I'm saying it's a bit strange you don't see how you're swinging the pendulum toward overrating Matthews when you think people are underrating Matthews because they believe he's the 4th best player in this poll, and some believe by a decent gap, all while saying it's likely he'll surpass Ovechkin and possibly even Crosby by this next season.

2-I'm asking why you think, BASED ON ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why it's seen as underrating Matthews to suggest he's 4th on the list out of the 4 guys in this poll, and based on ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why people shouldn't suggest there's a decent gap.

3-Final clarification being I'm not even saying it's 100% impossible Matthews won't surpass Crosby or Ovechkin this season. I'm just saying that, RIGHT NOW BASED ON ACTUAL RESULTS, I don't see how it's underrating him to have him placed 4th and by a bit of a gap behind 3 individuals (including McDavid since he's in the poll) who actually have proven results.

I'm not sure you understand the nature of the question, but it's asking you to predict next season. That isn't concrete. Saying Matthews will get hurt and get way fewer points than anyone else is not only speculative, but even less rooted in reality than my position. At least i'm assuming it'll be an equal playing field and treating it as such to form my opinion, rather than randomly disqualifying a player for no good reason.

 

[Varan]

1-So we're back to the "on pace" argument for why Matthews is on par (or will surpass) two guys with actual superior production.

2-Even if you used Matthews' "per 82" stats, he falls below both guys. And that's assuming he actually keeps up that pace. His pace over like 60 games (ie. anything outside his hot 7 game start) is actually BELOW a point per game, I believe. So who is to say that if Matthews played all 82 games, he'd actually have finished with his projected ~88 points?

Again, just to clarify because we've kind of veered a bit.

1-I'm saying it's a bit strange you don't see how you're swinging the pendulum toward overrating Matthews when you think people are underrating Matthews because they believe he's the 4th best player in this poll, and some believe by a decent gap, all while saying it's likely he'll surpass Ovechkin and possibly even Crosby by this next season.

2-I'm asking why you think, BASED ON ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why it's seen as underrating Matthews to suggest he's 4th on the list out of the 4 guys in this poll, and based on ACTUAL PRODUCTION, why people shouldn't suggest there's a decent gap.

3-Final clarification being I'm not even saying it's 100% impossible Matthews won't surpass Crosby or Ovechkin this season. I'm just saying that, RIGHT NOW BASED ON ACTUAL RESULTS, I don't see how it's underrating him to have him placed 4th and by a bit of a gap behind 3 individuals (including McDavid since he's in the poll) who actually have proven results.

no point in replying no more man. you're basically repeating the same things again and again.

 

[A4T1L6]

Matthews and McDavid

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not sure you understand the nature of the question, but it's asking you to predict next season. That isn't concrete. Saying Matthews will get hurt and get way fewer points than anyone else is not only speculative, but even less rooted in reality than my position. At least i'm assuming it'll be an equal playing field and treating it as such to form my opinion, rather than randomly disqualifying a player for no good reason.

Who is saying the first bolded? Certainly not me. You're the one that keeps bringing up the idea that I'm saying Matthews is being discounted because I expect an injury to cause fewer points.

As for the second bolded, it seems if anyone is "randomly" doing anything, it's you. I'm stating given actual results, it seems weird to take offense to the idea Matthews is considered #4 on this list, and by some, a decent gap. Your entire view seems to based on YOUR OPINION that he'll make this jump based on nothing but because you're a fan of his. I'm literally basing my views on past results. There's nothing "randomly disqualifying a player for no good reason" about my argument since I'm literally using what they did this past season as a launching point.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Who is saying the first bolded? Certainly not me. You're the one that keeps bringing up the idea that I'm saying Matthews is being discounted because I expect an injury to cause fewer points.

As for the second bolded, it seems if anyone is "randomly" doing anything, it's you. I'm stating given actual results, it seems weird to take offense to the idea Matthews is considered #4 on this list, and by some, a decent gap. Your entire view seems to based on YOUR OPINION that he'll make this jump based on nothing but because you're a fan of his. I'm literally basing my views on past results. There's nothing "randomly disqualifying a player for no good reason" about my argument since I'm literally using what they did this past season as a launching point.

yes, you. You're arguing that because Matthews missed 14 games and only put up 73 points and Ovechkin was healthy and put up 89, you think it is a smart launching point for what will happen. It's not. Raw points that are heavily skewed by games played is not a good way to form your opinion for going forward, and I would say that about any player for any team. They aren't the only past results we have available to us, nor are they the most reliable/useful

Anyway, no need to restate that you're unable to look at anything besides raw points from last year as your basis for this. I already know, and we'll have to wait and see what happens

 

[YakDavid]

My biggest problem with this would be that Matthews has yet to achieve what the others has done. If it's one year you take the proven duo

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Does Matthews even belong in this conversation?