NEW: Todd Marchant on Development of Quentin Musty, David Edstrom, Other Sharks Prospects

[Pinkfloyd]

I would rather have a big smooth skating two way center who wins 60% of his draws, is the first forward over the boards on every penalty kill and is a leader on and off the ice than a 4th round pick. Especially since Sturm is still young enough at 29 with very little NHL tread on his tires (less than 300 career GP so far) that he should maintain his current level of effectiveness for at least the next 4-5 seasons.

I would rather have that too. It's too bad that that's not what Sturm is. You've said a lot of questionable shit over the years but putting the tag two-way on Sturm is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen you put out on these boards.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

What does having a ring change a player's desire to compete for a Cup when the opportunity presents itself? You think Sturm after spending the past two seasons here doesn't want to go back to the playoffs? Of course he does. If we sign him back when he becomes a free agent, that's fine but foregoing an opportunity even at just a 4th round pick because of some ill-conceived perception of need for a 4C veteran is doing the team a disservice. The team will not lose out on a single thing renting Sturm at the deadline and finishing this next season w/o him for a month and a half. Give me a break.

I'm not exactly inclined to extend Sturm but I'm perfectly content with talking to him about going where he'd like to so he can compete in the playoffs again. Sturm's public showing of honesty only means so much to me. He had a bad season last year and on the ice, he's at a stage again where he's addition by subtraction.

I’m reading less into last seasons performance, and for sure am assuming that he shows better next season, when hopefully he gets a more fitting deployment and linemates, when saying the org may want to re-sign him.

In either case, I feel like giving him an opportunity to go chase a cup would be appreciated on his part and probably only helps the Sharks if they DO want to re-sign him.

"Just trade him at the deadline then sign him in the offseason bro" is something fans say every year yet it happens maybe once a decade.

For sure. Where I’m at is the Sharks can certainly have contract discussions with him over the course of the season; and also offer him a chance to play for a playoff team if that opportunity presents. He’ll know the numbers for the Sharks come UFA season and can factor that in.

While I personally like Sturm in a 4C role, I’m not so attached that I feel like GMMG has to force it. If after two months away from the team he doesn’t feel like he wants to re-sign here, then cheers and best wishes. On the other hand if he wants to return I’d be comfortable giving him a little more than market rate.

 

[Hodge]

I would rather have that too. It's too bad that that's not what Sturm is.

You also think Kunin stinks so I don't really trust your opinion of these kinds of players.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

You also think Kunin stinks so I don't really trust your opinion of these kinds of players.

Wait, is there an argument that Kunin doesn’t stink? Honest question. I’ve been operating under the impression that the team likes his intangibles and play style despite his near replacement level on-ice results. Is there something I’m missing?

 

[Hodge]

Wait, is there an argument that Kunin doesn’t stink? Honest question. I’ve been operating under the impression that the team likes his intangibles and play style despite his lackluster on-ice results. Is there something I’m missing?

Everyone's on-ice results on this team are bad. Kunin is one of the most physical forwards in the league, a top penalty killer and has scored at a 15 goals per 82 games pace over his entire career. The intangibles and how hard he reportedly works off the ice are just an added bonus. Fans act like he's trash just because he isn't Kucherov when that's obviously not his role and never will be.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I’m reading less into last seasons performance, and for sure am assuming that he shows better next season, when hopefully he gets a more fitting deployment and linemates, when saying the org may want to re-sign him.

In either case, I feel like giving him an opportunity to go chase a cup would be appreciated on his part and probably only helps the Sharks if they DO want to re-sign him.

If we slot Sturm at 3C, chances are he's not going to produce enough for the role since he's only ever done that once in his career. It's hard to expect us to have the means to have reasonably good 3rd line winger options for him especially if the team is interested in extending Kunin where he'd likely be one of those wingers. Personally, signing Sturm made sense at the time and still makes sense now but he's not a guy anyone should worry about extending over getting something for him. I would even consider bringing him back as a UFA on a one or two year deal if the team can staple him to the 4th line. But I'd also look for significantly more effective players even for a 4C role than Sturm.

You also think Kunin stinks so I don't really trust your opinion of these kinds of players.

Well he does stink so I don't know why you think that'd be a point in your favor. You seriously put that Sturm was a two-way center with a career high of 26 points in 74 games and never being over 17 points in any other season. If that qualifies for two-way then the bar for that term is absolutely meaningless. Him being one of the first guys over the boards on the PK only means something if the PK is any good. The team was 28th. Whatever happened between the previous season and this one to drop from 8th to 28th certainly wasn't due to Sturm. It probably had a lot more to do with Couture, Nieto, and Bonino.

 

[one2gamble]

Wait, is there an argument that Kunin doesn’t stink?

no there is not

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Everyone's on-ice results on this team are bad. Kunin is one of the most physical forwards in the league, a top penalty killer and has scored at a 15 goals per 82 games pace over his entire career. The intangibles and how hard he reportedly works off the ice are just an added bonus. Fans act like he's trash just because he isn't Kucherov when that's obviously not his role and never will be.

It's a complete joke that you want to dismiss criticisms against Kunin because of some stupid made-up thing in your head like people thought he should be like Kucherov. Nobody ever said that and saying shit like that is deliberately provocative and damages your credibility immensely. Kunin is a big contributing factor to the PK sliding as hard as it did from the previous season to this past one. Kunin only has bits of effectiveness around the net but his puck play outside of that is atrocious and he gets outworked frequently. Kunin being consistent as a goal scorer only goes so far when every other facet of his game is largely detrimental to the team. Ignoring that because of his goals pace and physicality that rarely actually does anything for the team is lousy analysis.

 

[Hodge]

It's a complete joke that you want to dismiss criticisms against Kunin because of some stupid made-up thing in your head like people thought he should be like Kucherov. Nobody ever said that and saying shit like that is deliberately provocative and damages your credibility immensely. Kunin is a big contributing factor to the PK sliding as hard as it did from the previous season to this past one. Kunin only has bits of effectiveness around the net but his puck play outside of that is atrocious and he gets outworked frequently. Kunin being consistent as a goal scorer only goes so far when every other facet of his game is largely detrimental to the team. Ignoring that because of his goals pace and physicality that rarely actually does anything for the team is lousy analysis.

The fact you're bringing up Kunin's puck play is exactly why I made the Kucherov comparison. Who cares about his puck play? That's not his job. Kunin's job is to be F1 on the forecheck, win board battles, get to the front of the net, kill penalties and defend his teammates. He does it pretty well. It's too bad you don't see value in any of those things but coaches and GMs certainly do.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

It's a complete joke that you want to dismiss criticisms against Kunin because of some stupid made-up thing in your head like people thought he should be like Kucherov. Nobody ever said that and saying shit like that is deliberately provocative and damages your credibility immensely. Kunin is a big contributing factor to the PK sliding as hard as it did from the previous season to this past one. Kunin only has bits of effectiveness around the net but his puck play outside of that is atrocious and he gets outworked frequently. Kunin being consistent as a goal scorer only goes so far when every other facet of his game is largely detrimental to the team. Ignoring that because of his goals pace and physicality that rarely actually does anything for the team is lousy analysis.

I think each of the players probably envision sexier roles, but if the team can stock the forward group to the point that Kostin, Sturm, and Kunin are playing together on a fourth line I’d like that a lot. I think it could be an identity line for the team that could successfully be deployed against most opposing bottom 6.

I feel like it’s been forever (like maybe when Ron Wilson was coaching?) since the Sharks deployed a fourth line that was meaningful contributors. At roughly 10% of the cap, it’s maybe just a hair above what you’d want to spend there, but a luxury the team can accommodate in the short to intermediate term.

 

[NWSharkie]

Wait, is there an argument that Kunin doesn’t stink? Honest question. I’ve been operating under the impression that the team likes his intangibles and play style despite his near replacement level on-ice results. Is there something I’m missing?

Without entirely wading into the argument, I'd like to draw a distinction between "replacement-level" and "stinks" if I can. Your 4th line should be mostly replacement-level players. Solid pros who do their jobs and don't attract attention. I think it's slightly unfair to lump them into the same category as players who don't live up to their contracts/skill level/expectations.

By that definition, I'd agree that Kunin is right about replacement-level, but wouldn't say that he stinks. He does his job and has performed up to expectations even when asked to do more than his position requires. Don't blame the 4th-liner for looking bad on the 1st, look to guys like Kevin Labanc who was supposed to be that top-6 talent and disappeared. That guy stinks.

 

[Hodge]

Without entirely wading into the argument, I'd like to draw a distinction between "replacement-level" and "stinks" if I can. Your 4th line should be mostly replacement-level players. Solid pros who do their jobs and don't attract attention. I think it's slightly unfair to lump them into the same category as players who don't live up to their contracts/skill level/expectations.

By that definition, I'd agree that Kunin is right about replacement-level, but wouldn't say that he stinks. He does his job and has performed up to expectations even when asked to do more than his position requires. Don't blame the 4th-liner for looking bad on the 1st, look to guys like Kevin Labanc who was supposed to be that top-6 talent and disappeared. That guy stinks.

Well said although I would define a replacement level player as being someone more like Justin Bailey. A guy who can hold his own in limited 4th line even strength minutes but who you would never use on special teams or put on the ice to protect a late lead unless absolutely forced to. Kunin and Sturm are more useful than that.

 

[NWSharkie]

Well said although I would define a replacement level player as being someone more like Justin Bailey. A guy who can hold his own in limited 4th line even strength minutes but who you would never use on special teams or put on the ice to protect a late lead unless absolutely forced to. Kunin and Sturm are more useful than that.

I didn't even know if I'd go that far. I know stats guys have definitions of replacement level, but I look at it more like the guy you can get at the deadline or the off-season every year whose name you don't remember three years after he's off the team. A guy who gets ~10 minutes a game, maybe plays some special teams, doesn't really move the needle. Like, in five years we'll say "oh, I forgot Cogliano played here" the way nobody talks about Eric Fehr's time in teal. Both guys were great for the room and in their roles, but ultimately replaceable.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The fact you're bringing up Kunin's puck play is exactly why I made the Kucherov comparison. Who cares about his puck play? That's not his job. Kunin's job is to be F1 on the forecheck, win board battles, get to the front of the net, kill penalties and defend his teammates. He does it pretty well. It's too bad you don't see value in any of those things but coaches and GMs certainly do.

Nah you brought up Kucherov to be provocative. Nothing you said in that aspect was relevant to Kunin. It is every skater's responsibility to be effective puck players for their role. It is absolutely part of his job and he was shit at it. He wasn't actually an effective forechecker, penalty killer, board battler, and worse in front of the net than he could've been had he actually been good on the puck.

There is absolutely nothing out there that defends any of these points you tried to make. That's why there's no value in what he does in any of those categories...because he wasn't actually good at it. You just gloss over that because you're in love with the few bits of physicality he did in a horrific season. But the reality is that his physicality almost never did anything remotely positive for the team.

 

[Cas]

I didn't even know if I'd go that far. I know stats guys have definitions of replacement level, but I look at it more like the guy you can get at the deadline or the off-season every year whose name you don't remember three years after he's off the team. A guy who gets ~10 minutes a game, maybe plays some special teams, doesn't really move the needle. Like, in five years we'll say "oh, I forgot Cogliano played here" the way nobody talks about Eric Fehr's time in teal. Both guys were great for the room and in their roles, but ultimately replaceable.

"Replacement level" is freely available talent. Someone like Justin Bailey or Ryan Carpenter is exactly that - you can get guys like that every off-season, sometimes on AHL deals, and they won't hideously embarrass you but shouldn't be playing a full season.

Kunin is a little better than that, but not by much. He's an offensive black hole except when net-front.

 

[timorous me]

Is Kunin even a good penalty killer? I know he puts in the effort and will block shots, but I've always found that he has a bit of a hockey awareness problem (I believe he came to the Sharks with this, and I only think it's subsided a bit) and I can recall multiple occasions this season where that lack of awareness directly led to power play goals for the opposition--which isn't something I can say for others who played on the PK regularly.

 

[Hodge]

Nah you brought up Kucherov to be provocative. Nothing you said in that aspect was relevant to Kunin. It is every skater's responsibility to be effective puck players for their role. It is absolutely part of his job and he was shit at it. He wasn't actually an effective forechecker, penalty killer, board battler, and worse in front of the net than he could've been had he actually been good on the puck.

There is absolutely nothing out there that defends any of these points you tried to make. That's why there's no value in what he does in any of those categories...because he wasn't actually good at it. You just gloss over that because you're in love with the few bits of physicality he did in a horrific season. But the reality is that his physicality almost never did anything remotely positive for the team.

It's every skater's responsibility to manage the puck effectively. Kunin understands his limitations which is why he typically dumps the puck in rather than trying to dangle opposing defensemen at the blueline.

There's nothing out there that defends your hatred of Kunin either. USA Hockey and Sharks management believe Kunin is effective in his role. I happen to agree with them.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's every skater's responsibility to manage the puck effectively. Kunin understands his limitations which is why he typically dumps the puck in rather than trying to dangle opposing defensemen at the blueline.

There's nothing out there that defends your hatred of Kunin either. USA Hockey and Sharks management believe Kunin is effective in his role. I happen to agree with them.

That first line about puck management is a laughably oversimplified view of that concept. To use a tactic that is inherently poor puck management as a way to try to inflate Kunin's tires is pretty pathetic. The reality is that he doesn't manage the puck effectively in any capacity and that is why he has been consistently underwater as a player. Anyone who plays above a 4th line level which Kunin does needs to be judged by the same metrics you'd judge anyone else in that role and he is a miserable failure when doing so. Practically every advanced number says this about him but you ignore it.

It's funny that you want to place your trust in USA Hockey and Sharks management regarding Kunin's effectiveness in his role yet ignore that both those entities believe in Bordeleau to a degree that you have made a habit of going against. Why do you appeal to authority for Kunin but not for Bordeleau? Why are those entities agreeable for one and not the other to you?

 

[sharks_dynasty]

Without entirely wading into the argument, I'd like to draw a distinction between "replacement-level" and "stinks" if I can. Your 4th line should be mostly replacement-level players. Solid pros who do their jobs and don't attract attention. I think it's slightly unfair to lump them into the same category as players who don't live up to their contracts/skill level/expectations.

By that definition, I'd agree that Kunin is right about replacement-level, but wouldn't say that he stinks. He does his job and has performed up to expectations even when asked to do more than his position requires. Don't blame the 4th-liner for looking bad on the 1st, look to guys like Kevin Labanc who was supposed to be that top-6 talent and disappeared. That guy stinks.

I would also add to this that it’s the GM and Coach’s responsibility to put the player in the best position to succeed. Last year with injuries, the players were playing musical chairs the entire time and in many cases were not put in the best position to succeed. Hopefully that improves next season. It’s hard to judge players correctly when they are put in roles they shouldn’t be in.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I would also add to this that it’s the GM and Coach’s responsibility to put the player in the best position to succeed. Last year with injuries, the players were playing musical chairs the entire time and in many cases were not put in the best position to succeed. Hopefully that improves next season. It’s hard to judge players correctly when they are put in roles they shouldn’t be in.

The problem that I have with this is that Kunin has never been a 4th liner for the Sharks. That was never the intention and he's not paid like one either. He is and was a 3rd liner for us. He should be evaluated accordingly and not have the bar lowered for a role he never actually played for this team. He has some attributes we'd like to have in a 4th liner but the odds that his re-signing would lead to him being relegated to such a role after the GM talked rosy about him isn't exactly high. If Kunin is re-signed, he will remain a 3rd liner on this team and a bad one at that especially if his center is Nico Sturm.

 

[sharks_dynasty]

The problem that I have with this is that Kunin has never been a 4th liner for the Sharks. That was never the intention and he's not paid like one either. He is and was a 3rd liner for us. He should be evaluated accordingly and not have the bar lowered for a role he never actually played for this team. He has some attributes we'd like to have in a 4th liner but the odds that his re-signing would lead to him being relegated to such a role after the GM talked rosy about him isn't exactly high. If Kunin is re-signed, he will remain a 3rd liner on this team and a bad one at that especially if his center is Nico Sturm.

I agree. I believe he has been miscast and should be on the 4th line. Again, that’s not his fault.

 

[weastern bias]

Luke Kunin is the 13th/14th forward who exclusively plays wing on a good team

He spent half the season as our 2C, lol, it's hard to give an honest assessment of someone who is so horrifyingly miscast, but I do not see him as a particularly effective player, he always tries to do more than he can based on his skillset

He's Jamie McGinn but he thinks he's Timo Meier, he doesn't understand his limitations and this team has done nothing but reward his poor play with unearned ice time and a letter on his sweater, I would love to see him let go, but we're too talent deficient to let a legit NHL talent walk for nothing, he'll be back on a bad contract, unfortunately

 

[themelkman]

Wait, is there an argument that Kunin doesn’t stink? Honest question. I’ve been operating under the impression that the team likes his intangibles and play style despite his near replacement level on-ice results. Is there something I’m missing?

near replacement is pretty generous, hes very under replacement.

 

[Pavelski2112]

He's Jamie McGinn but he thinks he's Timo Meier, he doesn't understand his limitations and this team has done nothing but reward his poor play with unearned ice time and a letter on his sweater, I would love to see him let go, but we're too talent deficient to let a legit NHL talent walk for nothing, he'll be back on a bad contract, unfortunately

That's generous

 

[weastern bias]

That's generous

I was thinking McGinn post injury, #88 Jamie McGinn, he was actually pretty darn good with Colorado before he got hurt

I think Sabres/Ducks/Yotes/Panthers McGinn is a decent Kunin comparable