I would rather have that too. It's too bad that that's not what Sturm is. You've said a lot of questionable shit over the years but putting the tag two-way on Sturm is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen you put out on these boards.
You also think Kunin stinks so I don't really trust your opinion of these kinds of players.
Everyone's on-ice results on this team are bad. Kunin is one of the most physical forwards in the league, a top penalty killer and has scored at a 15 goals per 82 games pace over his entire career. The intangibles and how hard he reportedly works off the ice are just an added bonus. Fans act like he's trash just because he isn't Kucherov when that's obviously not his role and never will be.
If we slot Sturm at 3C, chances are he's not going to produce enough for the role since he's only ever done that once in his career. It's hard to expect us to have the means to have reasonably good 3rd line winger options for him especially if the team is interested in extending Kunin where he'd likely be one of those wingers. Personally, signing Sturm made sense at the time and still makes sense now but he's not a guy anyone should worry about extending over getting something for him. I would even consider bringing him back as a UFA on a one or two year deal if the team can staple him to the 4th line. But I'd also look for significantly more effective players even for a 4C role than Sturm.
Well he does stink so I don't know why you think that'd be a point in your favor. You seriously put that Sturm was a two-way center with a career high of 26 points in 74 games and never being over 17 points in any other season. If that qualifies for two-way then the bar for that term is absolutely meaningless. Him being one of the first guys over the boards on the PK only means something if the PK is any good. The team was 28th. Whatever happened between the previous season and this one to drop from 8th to 28th certainly wasn't due to Sturm. It probably had a lot more to do with Couture, Nieto, and Bonino.
no there is not
It's a complete joke that you want to dismiss criticisms against Kunin because of some stupid made-up thing in your head like people thought he should be like Kucherov. Nobody ever said that and saying shit like that is deliberately provocative and damages your credibility immensely. Kunin is a big contributing factor to the PK sliding as hard as it did from the previous season to this past one. Kunin only has bits of effectiveness around the net but his puck play outside of that is atrocious and he gets outworked frequently. Kunin being consistent as a goal scorer only goes so far when every other facet of his game is largely detrimental to the team. Ignoring that because of his goals pace and physicality that rarely actually does anything for the team is lousy analysis.
The fact you're bringing up Kunin's puck play is exactly why I made the Kucherov comparison. Who cares about his puck play? That's not his job. Kunin's job is to be F1 on the forecheck, win board battles, get to the front of the net, kill penalties and defend his teammates. He does it pretty well. It's too bad you don't see value in any of those things but coaches and GMs certainly do.
Without entirely wading into the argument, I'd like to draw a distinction between "replacement-level" and "stinks" if I can. Your 4th line should be mostly replacement-level players. Solid pros who do their jobs and don't attract attention. I think it's slightly unfair to lump them into the same category as players who don't live up to their contracts/skill level/expectations.
Well said although I would define a replacement level player as being someone more like Justin Bailey. A guy who can hold his own in limited 4th line even strength minutes but who you would never use on special teams or put on the ice to protect a late lead unless absolutely forced to. Kunin and Sturm are more useful than that.
I didn't even know if I'd go that far. I know stats guys have definitions of replacement level, but I look at it more like the guy you can get at the deadline or the off-season every year whose name you don't remember three years after he's off the team. A guy who gets ~10 minutes a game, maybe plays some special teams, doesn't really move the needle. Like, in five years we'll say "oh, I forgot Cogliano played here" the way nobody talks about Eric Fehr's time in teal. Both guys were great for the room and in their roles, but ultimately replaceable.
Nah you brought up Kucherov to be provocative. Nothing you said in that aspect was relevant to Kunin. It is every skater's responsibility to be effective puck players for their role. It is absolutely part of his job and he was shit at it. He wasn't actually an effective forechecker, penalty killer, board battler, and worse in front of the net than he could've been had he actually been good on the puck.
"Replacement level" is freely available talent. Someone like Justin Bailey or Ryan Carpenter is exactly that - you can get guys like that every off-season, sometimes on AHL deals, and they won't hideously embarrass you but shouldn't be playing a full season.
It's every skater's responsibility to manage the puck effectively. Kunin understands his limitations which is why he typically dumps the puck in rather than trying to dangle opposing defensemen at the blueline.
That first line about puck management is a laughably oversimplified view of that concept. To use a tactic that is inherently poor puck management as a way to try to inflate Kunin's tires is pretty pathetic. The reality is that he doesn't manage the puck effectively in any capacity and that is why he has been consistently underwater as a player. Anyone who plays above a 4th line level which Kunin does needs to be judged by the same metrics you'd judge anyone else in that role and he is a miserable failure when doing so. Practically every advanced number says this about him but you ignore it.
I would also add to this that it’s the GM and Coach’s responsibility to put the player in the best position to succeed. Last year with injuries, the players were playing musical chairs the entire time and in many cases were not put in the best position to succeed. Hopefully that improves next season. It’s hard to judge players correctly when they are put in roles they shouldn’t be in.
The problem that I have with this is that Kunin has never been a 4th liner for the Sharks. That was never the intention and he's not paid like one either. He is and was a 3rd liner for us. He should be evaluated accordingly and not have the bar lowered for a role he never actually played for this team. He has some attributes we'd like to have in a 4th liner but the odds that his re-signing would lead to him being relegated to such a role after the GM talked rosy about him isn't exactly high. If Kunin is re-signed, he will remain a 3rd liner on this team and a bad one at that especially if his center is Nico Sturm.
I agree. I believe he has been miscast and should be on the 4th line. Again, that’s not his fault.
near replacement is pretty generous, hes very under replacement.
That's generous
I was thinking McGinn post injury, #88 Jamie McGinn, he was actually pretty darn good with Colorado before he got hurt
