OT: NBA & Basketball - 2023-24 Season
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I wish we'd just go full-rebuild, but the FO has done as good a job with this wrong path as possible.
Our kids needed a competent PG whether we're going to build with them or trade them, and Brunson should be able to provide that. Hartenstein should be excellent depth behind Mitch & maybe even push him for the starting job. And all it cost us was a handful of SRPs.
Brunson | Rose | McBride
Grimes* | Quickley | Keel
Barrett | Fournier* | Reddish
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims
Though we should be better, we shouldn't be so much better that we don't end up in the lottery again next year...at least not without RJ taking a huge step...only with enough ammo to move up for the kid we love, the way we couldn't do for Ivey.
Our kids needed a competent PG whether we're going to build with them or trade them, and Brunson should be able to provide that. Hartenstein should be excellent depth behind Mitch & maybe even push him for the starting job. And all it cost us was a handful of SRPs.
Brunson | Rose | McBride
Grimes* | Quickley | Keel
Barrett | Fournier* | Reddish
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims
Though we should be better, we shouldn't be so much better that we don't end up in the lottery again next year...at least not without RJ taking a huge step...only with enough ammo to move up for the kid we love, the way we couldn't do for Ivey.
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NYR94
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Baby Duck Homme
Still waiting to catch a puck from Fotiu...
Roo Returns
Skjeikspeare No More
Both franchises really have to go defcon one and start from scratch. The Knicks keep building a team like the 1980s Rangers.
romba
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JimmyG89
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Knicks might have too many players and not enough playing time. Signed Brunson, have IQ and Rose off the bench. Either one of them move to the 2 when the bench comes in. Then you have Grimes who is more of a Thibs player. Fournier is still around and will be playing, likely starting still. Barrett is also really a shooting guard, but can play the 3.
Still didn't solve the Randle/Toppin issue. The team was so much better with Toppin on the floor. Randle being moved is nearly impossible. Thibs doesn't play them together. That likely needs to change, especially when teams go small.
All the veterans they have signed are issues. The young players don't have time over them. Someone is going to get their minutes slashed for a young player. Fournier is the obvious choice.
Still didn't solve the Randle/Toppin issue. The team was so much better with Toppin on the floor. Randle being moved is nearly impossible. Thibs doesn't play them together. That likely needs to change, especially when teams go small.
All the veterans they have signed are issues. The young players don't have time over them. Someone is going to get their minutes slashed for a young player. Fournier is the obvious choice.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Eh, once Rose (or anyone) gets hurt, everyone significant will be in the rotation.
Brunson | Quickley
Grimes | Fournier
Barrett | Reddish
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein
Sims, McBride, Keel, & Gibson?
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Ratelleitlikeitis
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ponzu4u
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- Feb 27, 2013
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This encouraged my positivity. And I sympathize with the frustration the franchise has managed to be more or less consistently bad for 20 years somehow without ever really going full-rebuild.
It'll be nice to finally have a legit pg.
The NBA salary cap stuff is beyond my comprehension. But I'd guess that Fournier is probably not long for the team. Maybe he'd be a good deadline addition for a team needing offense going into the playoffs. Or if the Jazz decide to blow it up, Spida! Something like Fournier (for salary), 3 out of 4 of Q, Grimes, Reddish, and... probably Obi, and as many future 1st rounders as they want. A pretty good haul of futures for them to sell to their fans for the start of a rebuild. If the Jazz also get rid of Gobert and "tank" next season while leaning on the young guys, they could end up with a top-3 pick - which would be an awesome start to their rebuild.
Brunson, Mitchell, RJ, Julius, Mitch for at least one season to see if it works.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
It's frustrating because there's less room for error when you build the Miami / Toronto / San Antonio way...going from terrible to treadmill to contender...than there is with the rebuilding / tanking team to 'contender in the making' to contender path. And I've been a knicks fan for too long to really trust this organization with that harder path.
Not only does your scouting, development, and asset management need to be simply excellent to walk it successfully, but your organization also has to have the patience to stick to the plan through tough times & misses.
...at least they're doing a much better job of asset management than any Knicks regime has in decades, and they're giving us enough young talent to watch grow in the meantime; even if most (if not all) of them will cap out as supporting pieces.
It's just tough to get too excited when the success or failure of this plan depends almost entirely on a #1 option that they are still just positioning themselves to bring in someday. So we have to trust this FO to nail it when the time comes to pounce...because if they blow their load on the wrong #1, then we would be screwed even if RJ turned into a Pippen level 2nd option and Brunson into Kyle Lowry 2.0
But like in 2020-2021, I will enjoy watching a competent Knicks team even if I know it has a clear ceiling. All I ask is for a roster that is young and that the organization has draft capital in it's arsenal to give me (false) hope for the future
As for specific moves, I don't think a Mitchell - Brunson backcourt would work...that defense would just be brutal...and Spida seems to want Miami anyway. So I dunno who that #1 option will be if they go for an established NBAer, or when they'll make that move.
Fournier should actually be useful for salary matching if they wait until next summer / season to make their big trade; when Evan will be on an expiring contract (his last year is a team option) that can be paired with Hartenstein or Robinson's deals to match for a max guy...assuming Randle doesn't bounceback enough to bring his value closer to neutral.
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17futurecap
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mrmovies779
The Greatest Teacher,Failure is.
- Feb 5, 2013
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LionsHeart
Registered User
Gotta love the Anti-Knicks bias in the media. Mitchell anywhere else? 2nd Round favorite. Mitchell to the Knicks? Maybe a play in team.
East Coast Bias
Registered User
I don’t like it. Any deal that includes Barrett would cause me to give up on this team.
Even if you can get by without including Barrett, you’re gonna be stuck unless you can move Randle. Which you’ll probably struggle to do without draft picks, which are gone to Utah
So you’ll have Brunson, Randle and Mitchell making what, $80m combined? And Barrett needing to get paid. How’s that gonna work?
Even if you can get by without including Barrett, you’re gonna be stuck unless you can move Randle. Which you’ll probably struggle to do without draft picks, which are gone to Utah
So you’ll have Brunson, Randle and Mitchell making what, $80m combined? And Barrett needing to get paid. How’s that gonna work?
Mac n Gs
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Begley said that they're not trading RJ Barrett, and Shams mentioned that Grimes was a player of interest for the Jazz.
I really don't know how this works out, but they'd need to send back salary in some form of Rose, Randle, or Fournier, Grimes for the young player, probably one of Cam/Obi, and multiple FRP. Backcourt defense will be hysterical, but you hope that Brunson and RJ's slashing ability will facilitate more spacing to have guys open for 3s.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I’d rather wait until next summer & hope that playing with a real PG causes our kids to look more attractive…and that a better fit would become available. Mitchell-Brunson would be rough defensively, and Ainge is probably hoping for even more than he got for Gobert right now.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
If Brown is pissed about Boston offering him up for KD, I wonder if there's a 3-way trade to be made that sends Mitchell to Boston, Brown to us, and futures to Utah? I could see Mitchell being a better fit next to Tatum & Smart/Brogdon than Brown is, while Brown would make way more sense for us next to Brunson & Barrett.
...especially if he proves to have another gear in him, should he ever get to be a full-time #1 option; like Mitchell has been in Utah since day 1.
That could leave us with a very legit rotation & a (potentially) really good defense as long as Brunson can stay chippy enough not to undermine the whole. Even if it cost something like Quickley or Grimes + 2-3 NYK FRPs + 3-4 FRPs from DAL/DET/MIL/WAS (7 or 8 assets total); we'd be left with:
Brunson | Rose | McBride
Barrett | Grimes/Quickley
Brown | Reddish | Hunt
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims
EDIT:
OT but Hunt caught my interest in SL. Grimes (deservedly) got all of the hype, Deuce continued to do exciting Deuce-things, and Sims got some love for the new elements to his game that he showed off...a much-improved handle & some nice passing...but Hunt looked to me like he could become a good & versatile 3&D forward.
Not the athlete Cam is, so he is likely to struggle more when switched onto tiny (quicker) guys at the NBA level...but I might be more confident in Hunt carving out a role for himself & playing in this league until he's 30, than I am Reddish. Despite Cam's tools likely guaranteeing him at least 2 or 3 more "second chances" even if it doesn't work out for him in NYC.
I'm not a Reddish hater btw. I thought the move was a reasonable gamble & his raw skills/tools are close to the ideal prospect for me to fall in love with, but he has yet to show the right mindset to maximize his potential and you never know how long someone will need to mature...plus Cam's shot still needs plenty of work; even if he defended consistently well & was a reliable secondary-/tertiary-ballhandler.
...especially if he proves to have another gear in him, should he ever get to be a full-time #1 option; like Mitchell has been in Utah since day 1.
That could leave us with a very legit rotation & a (potentially) really good defense as long as Brunson can stay chippy enough not to undermine the whole. Even if it cost something like Quickley or Grimes + 2-3 NYK FRPs + 3-4 FRPs from DAL/DET/MIL/WAS (7 or 8 assets total); we'd be left with:
Brunson | Rose | McBride
Barrett | Grimes/Quickley
Brown | Reddish | Hunt
Randle | Toppin
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims
EDIT:
OT but Hunt caught my interest in SL. Grimes (deservedly) got all of the hype, Deuce continued to do exciting Deuce-things, and Sims got some love for the new elements to his game that he showed off...a much-improved handle & some nice passing...but Hunt looked to me like he could become a good & versatile 3&D forward.
Not the athlete Cam is, so he is likely to struggle more when switched onto tiny (quicker) guys at the NBA level...but I might be more confident in Hunt carving out a role for himself & playing in this league until he's 30, than I am Reddish. Despite Cam's tools likely guaranteeing him at least 2 or 3 more "second chances" even if it doesn't work out for him in NYC.
I'm not a Reddish hater btw. I thought the move was a reasonable gamble & his raw skills/tools are close to the ideal prospect for me to fall in love with, but he has yet to show the right mindset to maximize his potential and you never know how long someone will need to mature...plus Cam's shot still needs plenty of work; even if he defended consistently well & was a reliable secondary-/tertiary-ballhandler.
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
It's wild, but with a soft cap that's around 130M, that's expected to continue rising rapidly, and a maximum of 15 players (+2 two-way guys) to spend it on; things get crazy really fast. While Steph & Russ are going to make 48M & 47M respectively, this year; Jokic is going to get closer to 60M a year next summer.
27M is an average starting PG salary & will see Brunson be just the 14th highest-paid PG in the league this season...and his contract will decline into the NBA's next tv deal; when the cap is expected to take another leap. Meaning that by the back half of his contract, Brunson is likely to be considered underpaid.
If you look at spotrac's caphits for next season; the 27M that Brunson's contract starts at, would only crack the top 10 salaries at C and PF...and at PF Brunson would only bump #10 off the list; that being our very own Julius Randle, who will make just 260K more than John Collins to claim that 10th highest paid PF spot.
And that's only for this season where Brunson's decreasing salary is at its highest. Since his AAV is lower than Randle's & only 1M above the 25M a year that Collins is making, while Zion's extension is going to kick in after this season; C will be the only spot where Brunson will crack the top 10 salaries next year.
2024 NBA Rankings
Listing the top salaries, cap hits, cash, earnings, contracts, and bonuses, for all active NBA players.
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LionsHeart
Registered User
1. Good for RJ
2. I’m impressed with Leon Rose’s handling of Spida. In the past the Knicks would’ve given up the farm. They’d still have to give up a lot, but he hasn’t done something stupid like trade RJ.
2. I’m impressed with Leon Rose’s handling of Spida. In the past the Knicks would’ve given up the farm. They’d still have to give up a lot, but he hasn’t done something stupid like trade RJ.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
It's weird feeling happy with what our FO has done so far...can't help but feel it'll just make it all the more painful when we do overpay for a tier 2 star and lock ourselves into a 2nd-round-ceiling without the flexibility to add a true title-caliber #1...
...but so far, so good...
...but so far, so good...
coupla dings....
1. I again want to see SF [dating myself, GS}'s Wiseman, former #2OA to Knicks while he is available at relatively cheap price. Warriors willing to trade that pick for NY's 8OA + another pick back then, now Wiseman supposedly rounding into shape but no rush and can go in another direction Yardbarker had article to that effect.
If we can do Randle + 2 2nds for Wiseman + presumably mid-late 1sts that would do it for me.
Unfortunate we lost Noel.
2. re: Michell, how good is this guy? 4 picks and 3 top or at least good players?
I'm not getting this is a Dr. J quality add.
Understand ya gotta give to get, but too much overpay esp wrong pieces = not a good idea.
Measured surrender, coupla pieces, ok. Not half a team
We had a chance to get Carmello Anthony for close to free if we waited.
But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
someone wanted to make HIM happy, so we traded overpay in good assets, just to get him immediately, so CA could get a max contract.
Beyond stupid.
There are no shortcuts.
Yes, should always look for good deals, smart trade ups, that is sensibly being opportunistic.
But constant dealing for vets almost always never works
Recent history, only Supe winner Rams are the exception, and they would not have made it if SF, instead of stupidly insisting only playing an injured Jimmy G, did not and went w/Lance.
1. I again want to see SF [dating myself, GS}'s Wiseman, former #2OA to Knicks while he is available at relatively cheap price. Warriors willing to trade that pick for NY's 8OA + another pick back then, now Wiseman supposedly rounding into shape but no rush and can go in another direction Yardbarker had article to that effect.
If we can do Randle + 2 2nds for Wiseman + presumably mid-late 1sts that would do it for me.
Unfortunate we lost Noel.
2. re: Michell, how good is this guy? 4 picks and 3 top or at least good players?
I'm not getting this is a Dr. J quality add.
Understand ya gotta give to get, but too much overpay esp wrong pieces = not a good idea.
Measured surrender, coupla pieces, ok. Not half a team
We had a chance to get Carmello Anthony for close to free if we waited.
But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
someone wanted to make HIM happy, so we traded overpay in good assets, just to get him immediately, so CA could get a max contract.
Beyond stupid.
There are no shortcuts.
Yes, should always look for good deals, smart trade ups, that is sensibly being opportunistic.
But constant dealing for vets almost always never works
Recent history, only Supe winner Rams are the exception, and they would not have made it if SF, instead of stupidly insisting only playing an injured Jimmy G, did not and went w/Lance.
