Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

Lonewolfe2015

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What a silly discussion. MacKinnon just flat out isn't as good as McDavid. Just look at their accomplishments, its not even close.

That's how I feel when anyone tries to compare 'insert favorite dman' to Makar. Most people know McDavid's achievements put him above MacK. There's just an argument over who is peaking better right now (aka in the last year) given they're both old enough now to compare peaks versus prime.
 
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Kerberos

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There's just an argument over who is peaking better right now (aka in the last year) given they're both old enough now to compare peaks versus prime.
I'm not sure where the notion that McDavid and MacKinnon's peaks are comparable is coming from, honestly.

McDavid followed up a 64-89 (153p) regular season with 32-100 (132p) and then put up 8-34 (42p) in the most recent playoffs.

MacKinnon had 42-69 (111p) in the 22/23 regular season and followed it up with 51-89 (140p) last regular season. 4-10 (14p) in the most recent playoffs.

That's one massive gap between the two.
 

Matsun

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I'm not sure where the notion that McDavid and MacKinnon's peaks are comparable is coming from, honestly.

McDavid followed up a 64-89 (153p) regular season with 32-100 (132p) and then put up 8-34 (42p) in the most recent playoffs.

MacKinnon had 42-69 (111p) in the 22/23 regular season and followed it up with 51-89 (140p) last regular season. 4-10 (14p) in the most recent playoffs.

That's one massive gap between the two.
Since 01-01-2023GPGAP
MacKinnon15292160252
McDavid13975166241
Kucherov14973164237
82 game pace
MacKinnon825086136
McDavid824498142
Kucherov824090130
I think we are in the middle of MacKinnons peak, and right now he is pretty close to McDavid because McDavid is not really playing at absolute peak level right now. This is normal, we have seen players like Sakic and Thornton have seasons that rival Jagr even though he is on a different level as an offensive player.
Top 5 scorers in 05-06GPGAPPPG
Thornton8129961251,54
Jagr8254691231,50
Ovechkin8152541061,31
Heatley8250531031,26
Alfredsson7743601031,34

Jagr in 05-06 was very good but not his absolute best and he still lead the field by alot just like McDavid last season. If this was peak Jagr he would've won this Art Ross despite Thorntons monster season. What makes players like McDavid and Jagr special is that they are always great and in their very best years (20-21, 22-23 for McDavid) they are nearly unbeatable. 20-21 or 22-23 McDavid would win last years Art Ross because that version was a bit better in the regular season then last season. I don't think McDavid is out of his peak but I think that last season he might've saved his strength for the playoffs. I don't think it's a coincidence that his strongest playoff runs came in 21-22 and 23-24 after weaker regular seasons.

The only players that were consistently unbeatable were Wayne, Mario and Orr. Orr was never going to lose a Norris to a strong Pronger season and Mario or Wayne were never losing a Art Ross to Thornton or Kucherov (see Bossy, Yzerman, Lafontaine, and Jagrs 145+ point seasons and how they didnt get close).

TLDR: Peak McDavid is ahead of peak MacKinnon, but last regular season wasn't McDavid at his absolute peak which says alot about how unbelievable he is.
 
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daver

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but I think that last season he might've saved his strength for the playoffs. I don't think it's a coincidence that his strongest playoff runs came in 21-22 and 23-24 after weaker regular seasons.

By that logic, can we give MacKinnon more credit for his 2020 and 2021 regular seasons when he was at a 1.60 PPG in the playoffs?

Or take away a couple of McDavid's Art Rosses when players like Crosby and Kucherov took their foot off the gas towards the end of the regular season.

The point being, I don't think MacKinnon has reached McDavid's peak unless he matches McDavid's playoff performances from 2022 and 2024 but let's not go overboard in unnecessarily boosting McDavid.
 

benfranklin

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Jun 29, 2024
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Cool. MacKinnon has won a team award that McDavid doesn't have. Whats your point?
"Just look at their accomplishments, its not even close."

Winning the Stanley Cup is why we play the game and the definition of an accomplishment.

I bet all of Edmonton would trade some Harts for one more Cup.
 
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CantHaveTkachev

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By that logic, can we give MacKinnon more credit for his 2020 and 2021 regular seasons when he was at a 1.60 PPG in the playoffs?

Or take away a couple of McDavid's Art Rosses when players like Crosby and Kucherov took their foot off the gas towards the end of the regular season.

The point being, I don't think MacKinnon has reached McDavid's peak unless he matches McDavid's playoff performances from 2022 and 2024 but let's not go overboard in unnecessarily boosting McDavid.
Sure they did

what a cope lol
 

CantHaveTkachev

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"Just look at their accomplishments, its not even close."

Winning the Stanley Cup is why we play the game and the definition of an accomplishment.
Henri Richard has 10 Cups...therefore by your logic, Richard is 10x the player MacKinnon is

I bet all of Edmonton would trade some Harts for one more Cup.
no shit, but we are not comparing team accomplishments are we
 
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benfranklin

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Henri Richard has 10 Cups...therefore by your logic, Richard is 10x the player MacKinnon is


no shit, but we are not comparing team accomplishments are we
There were 6 teams then. Everyone puts an asterisk on the Habs accomplishments.

No, Edmonton fans want to exclude Cup victories while highlighting playoff points. Cant have it both ways. Make a thread about better regular season player if you want to blow McDavid over his Hart's and Art Ross's, ignoring winning.

MacKinnon was a huge factor in the Avs Stanley Cup run and the clinching game with 1-1 in a 2-1 victory. McDavid put up a zillion points in the playoffs, then a big 0 in Game 7 when it mattered to lose the Cup.
 
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CantHaveTkachev

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There were 6 teams then. Everyone puts an asterisk on the Habs accomplishments.

No, Edmonton fans want to exclude Cup victories while highlighting playoff points. Cant have it both ways. Make a thread about better regular season player if you want to blow McDavid over his Hart's and Art Ross's, ignoring winning.

MacKinnon was a huge factor in the Avs Stanley Cup run and the clinching game with 1-1 in a 2-1 victory. McDavid put up a zillion points in the playoffs, then a big 0 in Game 7 when it mattered to lose the Cup.
damn, I guess that's why he won the MVP right? oh wait he didn't...

MacKinnon put up 0 points in last year's Game 6 clincher for Dallas
Mackinnon put up 0 points in Game 7 against the lowly Kraken in the 2023 playoffs

I guess he's just not a "winner" anymore eh?

see how silly it is to isolate 1 game to judge a player?
 
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benfranklin

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damn, I guess that's why he won the MVP right? oh wait he didn't...

MacKinnon put up 0 points in last year's Game 6 clincher for Dallas
Mackinnon put up 0 points in Game 7 against the lowly Kraken in the 2023 playoffs

I guess he's just not a "winner" anymore eh?

see how silly it is to isolate 1 game to judge a player?
How many Cups does MacKinnon have?
How many Cups does McDavid have?

Until he catches up, he will be lesser than. Cups matter bro.
 
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Video Nasty

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Or take away a couple of McDavid's Art Rosses when players like Crosby and Kucherov took their foot off the gas towards the end of the regular season.

The shit this site peddles and tries to get away with.

1. Kucherov didn’t let his foot off the gas—it would have been stupid to do so by choice, considering the Lightning and Bruins were battling for the division and #1 seed down the stretch and played each other twice during the final eight games, a period of time where Kucherov whiffed and put up just five points. He also finished behind Giroux.

Or if you like, we can push it back further to try and salvage your comment, to the “insurmountable” 6 point lead he entered March with, and recognize that even then, with 17 games left, the Bruins were right behind them. There was no letting up. He also only owned that 6 point lead over Malkin who played 3 less games and would trim to it to 2, days later.

2. As for Crosby, he has very little history of what he does or doesn’t do when a scoring race seems concluded, since he won a whopping two.

He also trailed for much of the entire second half of 2016-2017, yet seemed to care enough to take a share of the lead on February 10th, with a third of the season remaining.

For the next month, he would trail by as much (or as little since it’s not a lot) as four and seemed to care enough to trim it back to a share of the runner up with Kane by 1 through March 13th, with just 13 games remaining.

Then he collected 6 points over his next 3 games to vault back into a tie with McDavid through March 19th.

Then he slumped. Didn’t take his foot off the gas. Slumped with 4 points in his next 7 games while falling behind Kane and Marchand and into a tie with Backstrom for 5th with 3 game remaining on April 3rd.

Seemed to care enough to enough to put up 5 points in his final 3 games to finish tied with Kane for second, and bow out of every scoring race for the rest of his career.

A stronger argument is that if Crosby played more games, he might have won. But then it’s the same tired argument that it is always is. And he still wasn’t first in PPG.

This wasn’t some strategic move to rest up to defend the Cup because it was more “important” than a scoring title…this was a simple case of watching McDavid in real time leave Crosby in his rearview forever.

I’m calling you out for what we all know this is. A poorly veiled attempt to prop up Crosby by downplaying McDavid in any way possible.
 

GirardSpinorama

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Legacy wise, until McDavid wins a cup, there will always be people harping on him for it, just like if Mack didn't win the hart/lindsay,
 

Dr Pepper

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There were 6 teams then. Everyone puts an asterisk on the Habs accomplishments.

No, Edmonton fans want to exclude Cup victories while highlighting playoff points. Cant have it both ways. Make a thread about better regular season player if you want to blow McDavid over his Hart's and Art Ross's, ignoring winning.

MacKinnon was a huge factor in the Avs Stanley Cup run and the clinching game with 1-1 in a 2-1 victory. McDavid put up a zillion points in the playoffs, then a big 0 in Game 7 when it mattered to lose the Cup.

.....no we ****ing don't. :biglaugh:
 

benfranklin

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Jun 29, 2024
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Then Justin Williams is better than Nate MacKinnon, according to you
he has 3 Cups and a Conn Smythe...how many Conn Smythe's for Mackinnon? they matter bro
No but its a point of comparison if player stats are close, which they arent in MacKinnon vs Williams. Pat Maroon has more Cups and hes still a plug.

The entire point of this thread is since 2023, MacKinnon has been the better player. Make your own thread about their entire careers so far and remove the playoffs from being a point of discussion if you want and McDavid will take it in a landslide. Since 2023 MacKinnon has 1 Cup udner his belt and McDavid lost one. Its math at this point. If he won last season, this would all be a compeltely different discussion.

This thread specifically is about 1.1.23 to today and statistically MacKinnon has been better.

.....no we ****ing don't. :biglaugh:
Everything pre 1967 is a big asterisk. It was a glorified rec league and even then still took years for any new teams to compete with the original 6.
 

Romang67

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No but its a point of comparison if player stats are close, which they arent in MacKinnon vs Williams. Pat Maroon has more Cups and hes still a plug.

The entire point of this thread is since 2023, MacKinnon has been the better player. Make your own thread about their entire careers so far and remove the playoffs from being a point of discussion if you want and McDavid will take it in a landslide. Since 2023 MacKinnon has 1 Cup udner his belt and McDavid lost one. Its math at this point. If he won last season, this would all be a compeltely different discussion.

This thread specifically is about 1.1.23 to today and statistically MacKinnon has been better.


Everything pre 1967 is a big asterisk. It was a glorified rec league and even then still took years for any new teams to compete with the original 6.
Uh-huh.

When was that picture of MacKinnon raising the Stanley Cup you keep posting taken?
 

Dr Pepper

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No but its a point of comparison if player stats are close, which they arent in MacKinnon vs Williams. Pat Maroon has more Cups and hes still a plug.

The entire point of this thread is since 2023, MacKinnon has been the better player. Make your own thread about their entire careers so far and remove the playoffs from being a point of discussion if you want and McDavid will take it in a landslide. Since 2023 MacKinnon has 1 Cup udner his belt and McDavid lost one. Its math at this point. If he won last season, this would all be a compeltely different discussion.

This thread specifically is about 1.1.23 to today and statistically MacKinnon has been better.


Everything pre 1967 is a big asterisk. It was a glorified rec league and even then still took years for any new teams to compete with the original 6.

Not really, that's just the way the league was.

If Ottawa or Vancouver want to count their Cup wins from the early 1900s, then sure, asterisk it up. But they don't, for obvious reasons.

Toronto's won 13 Cups. They're all valid, they all count - and they all predate the expansion era. Asterisk not required. :laugh:

Also, "glorified rec league"? What are you even on about?
 

Romang67

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For the record, unless you're a hardcore Avs fan, you might not be aware that MacKinnon was not part of either the Vegas Golden Knights team that won the Stanley Cup in 2023, nor of the Florida Panthers team that won the Stanley Cup in 2024.

The Colorado Avalanche won the Stanley Cup in June 2022, which was before January 1st, 2023.

Source:


 

Coffey

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The entire point of this thread is since 2023, MacKinnon has been the better player
Not even better than Lundell.

1732898221164.png
 

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