Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

[robbieberns]

Carolina should pay Necas 15 million...or even 12.7 million. That would be fantastic.

nooo he’s going to do the thing that cool and chill players do which is sign for the same amount as their jersey number aka locking him in at 8.8 for 8 years

 

[John Mandalorian]

nooo he’s going to do the thing that cool and chill players do which is sign for the same amount as their jersey number aka locking him in at 8.8 for 8 years

That makes him the “poor man”, no?

 

[nturn06]

I didn't ask you to move the goalposts. I asked you whether your statistics "prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career?" It's right there in the extremely short (2-sentence) post you quoted.

Based on your most recent answer, it appears they do not.

In the meantime, according to you, "it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player" and I'd like to go a step further, if that player was the most recent league MVP it's even more understandable to have a preference for that player. This is regardless of the other stuff I mentioned which I noticed you failed to address.

If you honestly believe what you wrote in the bolded above (ie 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for a player'), I'd encourage you to get over yourself. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. What you have is an opinion, same as me and PaulD. All our viewpoints are equally valid so long as we can back them up (and with players this close in ability / impact, you can definitely make an argument for either player)

McKinnon has 1 point in four Games 7 and he is -3 career wise, McDavid has 2 points infour game 7, and he is +2. So what is the exactl point you are trying to make?

 

[ijuka]

I feel like MacKinnon has a nagging injury, he's not looked good at all the past few games.

 

[jimstark]

He is done....

 

[Spilot23]

MacKinnon best in the league at getting 4 points against the Blackhawks. Ghost against actual good teams.

He didn't even get 4 points against the Hawks !! He was only -4

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

MacKinnon is a special talent, I don't think anyone would argue that. At the top of his game he is a sight to see.

But McDavid is still McDavid. The Oilers have absolutely bungled his tenure so far. Bad GM after bad GM, afterthought coaches, poor drafting (no Holland draft picks are currently playing for the Oilers fyi), and legions of shit acquisitions like Jack Campbell, Milan Lucic (traded for James Neal who melted into a puddle after one year), and some extremely questionable extensions (Zack Kassian, Mikko Koskinen, Darnell Nurse to name a few)

McDavid masks a ton of Oiler organizational problems. I'm not confident that MacKinnon could do the same.

 

[benfranklin]

McKinnon has 1 point in four Games 7 and he is -3 career wise, McDavid has 2 points infour game 7, and he is +2. So what is the exactl point you are trying to make?

How about Cup clinching games?

1-1 in a 2-1 win to clinch the Cup

vs

Game 7 - 0-0 to lose the Cup.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

How about Cup clinching games?

1-1 in a 2-1 win to clinch the Cup

vs

Game 7 - 0-0 to lose the Cup.

Why is a Vegas fan so ardently defending MacKinnon lol.

 

[benfranklin]

Why is a Vegas fan so ardently defending MacKinnon lol.

Who says Im a Vegas fan?

I am a hockey fan in general and Eichel is specifically one I am a fan of mainly rooting against Buffalo's stupidity. I like to think I can objectively, as unbiased as possible, look at any hockey topic and give a logical statistically based answer.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Who says Im a Vegas fan?

I am a hockey fan in general and Eichel is specifically one I am a fan of mainly rooting against Buffalo's stupidity. I like to think I can objectively, as unbiased as possible, look at any hockey topic and give a logical statistically based answer.

Okay, then answer the following: which team is more poorly managed, the Oilers or the Avalanche.

 

[nturn06]

How about Cup clinching games?

1-1 in a 2-1 win to clinch the Cup

vs

Game 7 - 0-0 to lose the Cup.

Yikes, are you really comparing two players by comparing their performance in one career game for each?

Who says Im a Vegas fan?

I am a hockey fan in general and Eichel is specifically one I am a fan of mainly rooting against Buffalo's stupidity. I like to think I can objectively, as unbiased as possible, look at any hockey topic and give a logical statistically based answer.

LOL

 

[TheNumber4]

Guy guys, what about Auston Matthews

 

[benfranklin]

Okay, then answer the following: which team is more poorly managed, the Oilers or the Avalanche.

Oilers obviously. Im actually a McDavid fan personally, but enjoy rooting against the Oilers stupidity and lack of success given they were gifted/tanked their way to 8-10 years in a row of top drafting positions.

I'll be a huge fan when McDavid is in LA or NY rocking 97.

 

[benfranklin]

Yikes, are you really comparing two players by comparing their performance in one career game for each?


LOL

When someone makes a comment about game 7 points for Player A losing the Cup while ignoring the fact that it didn't even take 7 games for Player B to win the Cup, then yes.

 

[PuckG]

When someone makes a comment about game 7 points for Player A losing the Cup while ignoring the fact that it didn't even take 7 games for Player B to win the Cup, then yes.

Their team won the cup. If you put McDavid on the Avs in MacKinnon’s exact same position, do you believe the Avs don’t win the cup?

For what it’s worth, that comparison was started with a Avs fan suggesting that MacKinnon = McDavid because neither of them have done anything in game 7’s. A stupid comment to put down in the first place.

Who says Im a Vegas fan?

I am a hockey fan in general and Eichel is specifically one I am a fan of mainly rooting against Buffalo's stupidity. I like to think I can objectively, as unbiased as possible, look at any hockey topic and give a logical statistically based answer.

Using a 1 game sample size and ignoring hockey as a team sport as per above is not objective, unbiased, or a logical stats based answer at all.

 

[benfranklin]

Their team won the cup. If you put McDavid on the Avs in MacKinnon’s exact same position, do you believe the Avs don’t win the cup?

For what it’s worth, that comparison was started with a Avs fan suggesting that MacKinnon = McDavid because neither of them have done anything in game 7’s. A stupid comment to put down in the first place.

Using a 1 game sample size and ignoring hockey as a team sport as per above is not objective, unbiased, or a logical stats based answer at all.

Honestly, maybe not. I think the Oilers default to McDavid too much rather than playing team hockey like you keep talking about. They live and die by him and one player is possible to shut down for a 7 game series.

Also in 21-22, MacKinnon was making $6.3M. McDavid was making $12.5. That $6.2M difference is whatever combination of:

Nichushkin/Kadri - $7M
Lehkonen/Kadri - $5.6M
Lehkonen/Nichushkin/Helm/Murray - $6.5M

Maybe the Avs still win it, but can easily argue a lot of their depth moves might not have ever happened without that extra cap space.

To reference the last comment. this entire thread is about one players accomplishments vs another's. Make a thread about Oilers/Avs management or Oilers/Avs depth if you want to go down that route.

 

[PuckG]

Honestly, maybe not. I think the Oilers default to McDavid too much rather than playing team hockey like you keep talking about. They live and die by him and one player is possible to shut down for a 7 game series.

Also in 21-22, MacKinnon was making $6.3M. McDavid was making $12.5. That $6.2M difference is whatever combination of:

Nichushkin/Kadri - $7M
Lehkonen/Kadri - $5.6M
Lehkonen/Nichushkin/Helm/Murray - $6.5M

Maybe the Avs still win it, but can easily argue a lot of their depth moves might not have ever happened without that extra cap space.

To reference the last comment. this entire thread is about one players accomplishments vs another's. Make a thread about Oilers/Avs management or Oilers/Avs depth if you want to go down that route.

Cap space is a whole different discussion. We’re comparing the two talents and if they are on par with one another.

If you want to consider cap space, the reason McDavid is paid that much more is because he has been that much better for that much longer however in a comparison of talent:

If you put McDavid in MacKinnon’s position on that cup winning team, almost no one would argue they don’t still win the cup and justifiably so.

You brought up the Avs depth, not me.

 

[Alex1234]

-3 and zero shots in 22 minutes yesterday

 

[benfranklin]

Cap space is a whole different discussion. We’re comparing the two talents and if they are on par with one another.

If you want to consider cap space, the reason McDavid is paid that much more is because he has been that much better for that much longer however in a comparison of talent:

If you put McDavid in MacKinnon’s position on that cup winning team, almost no one would argue they don’t still win the cup and justifiably so.

You brought up the Avs depth, not me.

Their team won the cup. If you put McDavid on the Avs in MacKinnon’s exact same position, do you believe the Avs don’t win the cup?

For what it’s worth, that comparison was started with a Avs fan suggesting that MacKinnon = McDavid because neither of them have done anything in game 7’s. A stupid comment to put down in the first place.

Using a 1 game sample size and ignoring hockey as a team sport as per above is not objective, unbiased, or a logical stats based answer at all.

You brought it up.

Cap space is a huge factor in the 21-22 Avs team. You dont just insert a $12.5M McDavid magically on that Avs team without removing the difference in cap space. Any hockey fan with a mathematical brain not playing in Vegas rules would know and consider that. So yes, insert McDavid's x points on that team, but remove Kadri's and Lehkonen and Helm's contributions and boom, they maybe dont win it then. So +McDavid, -MacKinnon, -Lehkonen, -Kadri, and -Helm.

In terms of contracts, The Avalanche were lucky/fortunate/strategic enough to have Duchene making $6.5M I believe when MacKinnon's RFA contract came up and they locked him up long term for $6.3M and he immediately blew up making that the best deal in hockey. Not that McDavid didnt deserve it, but the Oilers gave him $11M off of his RFA deal and he took them behind the woodshed only signing for 3 years before his next 8 year big payday. You can give McDavid credit for playing amazing right out the gate in the NHL, but then at the same time, argue that the bad Avs teams in a round about way built that Stanley Cup winning team.

Either way, MacKinnon has a Cup and McDavid doesnt.

 

[PuckG]

You brought it up.

Cap space is a huge factor in the 21-22 Avs team. You dont just insert a $12.5M McDavid magically on that Avs team without removing the difference in cap space. Any hockey fan with a mathematical brain not playing in Vegas rules would know and consider that. So yes, insert McDavid's x points on that team, but remove Kadri's and Lehkonen and Helm's contributions and boom, they maybe dont win it then. So +McDavid, -MacKinnon, -Lehkonen, -Kadri, and -Helm.

In terms of contracts, The Avalanche were lucky/fortunate/strategic enough to have Duchene making $6.5M I believe when MacKinnon's RFA contract came up and they locked him up long term for $6.3M and he immediately blew up making that the best deal in hockey. Not that McDavid didnt deserve it, but the Oilers gave him $11M off of his RFA deal and he took them behind the woodshed only signing for 3 years before his next 8 year big payday. You can give McDavid credit for playing amazing right out the gate in the NHL, but then at the same time, argue that the bad Avs teams in a round about way built that Stanley Cup winning team.

Either way, MacKinnon has a Cup and McDavid doesnt.

The Stanley Cup is not an individual award, it’s a team award.

In a comparison of talent and who is the superior player, no, you wouldn’t consider cap space…but by all means, keep shifting goalposts.

The point stands - if you put McDavid on the Avs, he has a cup and MacKinnon doesn’t. It’s a dumb argument to favour MacKinnon. Just as dumb as using a one game sample size to justify your original argument.

You could just as easily say Corey Perry is a superior player because he has a cup - that would also be exceptionally dumb.

 

[nturn06]

When someone makes a comment about game 7 points for Player A losing the Cup while ignoring the fact that it didn't even take 7 games for Player B to win the Cup, then yes.

You do realise that my post was an answer to another one addressing some of the McD game 7's, don't you?

And picking even less of a very very small and irrelevant data set is not making your point, and is not a "logical statistically based answer", the stats are saying that all the data in our posts is statistically irelevant.

 

[Panthaz89]

You brought it up.

Cap space is a huge factor in the 21-22 Avs team. You dont just insert a $12.5M McDavid magically on that Avs team without removing the difference in cap space. Any hockey fan with a mathematical brain not playing in Vegas rules would know and consider that. So yes, insert McDavid's x points on that team, but remove Kadri's and Lehkonen and Helm's contributions and boom, they maybe dont win it then. So +McDavid, -MacKinnon, -Lehkonen, -Kadri, and -Helm.

In terms of contracts, The Avalanche were lucky/fortunate/strategic enough to have Duchene making $6.5M I believe when MacKinnon's RFA contract came up and they locked him up long term for $6.3M and he immediately blew up making that the best deal in hockey. Not that McDavid didnt deserve it, but the Oilers gave him $11M off of his RFA deal and he took them behind the woodshed only signing for 3 years before his next 8 year big payday. You can give McDavid credit for playing amazing right out the gate in the NHL, but then at the same time, argue that the bad Avs teams in a round about way built that Stanley Cup winning team.

Either way, MacKinnon has a Cup and McDavid doesnt.

Cap space is legit one of the worst arguments for evaluating a player vs player.......a lot of rookies that are off to great starts would have more value per dollar than a lot of stars but that's the reason the stars are paid because they already proven themselves. Its not really an argument for proving someone is actually a better hockey player.

 

[Macheteops]

I have no issues with someone saying MacKinnon is there with McDavid the last few years. I agree with that take. I do believe McDavid has been fighting through injuries for some of that time and maybe MacKinnon has too

I did find it absolutely hilarious one poster commented MacKinnon didn't start to focus on points until he won a cup. He did his team a huge solid but costing himself 10s of millions by being a 50-60 point guy his first four years

 

[blundluntman]

-3 and zero shots in 22 minutes yesterday

The jinx thread worked, Mackinnon will never score another point in the NHL again