Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

[Arthur Morgan]

crazy to think how much he has progressed over the years. from his beginning first few seasons which ended up gifting COL one of the best contracts ever. his current aav is well deserved.

 

[benfranklin]

Mcdavid is 3rd to 5th all time

Mackinnon is 20th to 30th all time

In all time what? Fastest skaters? Neither of those are remotely accurate for best players of all time.

 

[hamzarocks]

In all time what? Fastest skaters? Neither of those are remotely accurate for best players of all time.

IF its best player, Mcdavid is #1 or 2 and Mackinnon is top 10ish.

These guy are amongst the very most skilled players in NHL history playing in modern era of hockey

Mackinnon destroys most old players that people cling to

His 8 year prime, his pts/ppg/hart/lindsay+playoff finishes is top 20-30

He has a better 8 year stretch than Sakic,Yzermann, Federov, Datsyuk, thoronton, MSL, Selanne, Brett Hull etc etc. Very few players can say they ~116 pt per 82 players for his 8th season now.

McDavid in his 10th season has never been worse than 3rd in league ppg. Very few players besides 99, 66, 4 (defense adjisted, howe, and Crosby maybe can say they have that level of stretch.

The fact that they are two of the best playoff players ever just further solidifies their all time status.

Mackinnon + Kucherov both are top 20-30 all time after this year

 

[DJN21]

He has been for some time.

 

[benfranklin]

IF its best player, Mcdavid is #1 or 2 and Mackinnon is top 10ish.

These guy are amongst the very most skilled players in NHL history playing in modern era of hockey

Mackinnon destroys most old players that people cling to

His 8 year prime, his pts/ppg/hart/lindsay+playoff finishes is top 20-30

He has a better 8 year stretch than Sakic,Yzermann, Federov, Datsyuk, thoronton, MSL, Selanne, Brett Hull etc etc. Very few players can say they ~116 pt per 82 players for his 8th season now.

McDavid in his 10th season has never been worse than 3rd in league ppg. Very few players besides 99, 66, 4 (defense adjisted, howe, and Crosby maybe can say they have that level of stretch.

The fact that they are two of the best playoff players ever just further solidifies their all time status.

Mackinnon + Kucherov both are top 20-30 all time after this year

In 10 years maybe when they're both flirting with 2000 points, sure. Until then you're insulting a whole list of greats, who have multiple Cups, 500/600/700+ goals.

I agree, skill wise, sure, but you're also comparing 2024 technology to pre 2000's for most. Apples and oranges.

Put up the points, get some more individual hardware, and most importantly win a Cup or two (McDavid) and then we can talk. Zero Cups and no chance he is top 3 of all time.

Messier, Howe, Francis, Jagr, Selanne, Dionne, Yzerman, Sakic, Lidstrom, Crosby, Ovechkin, Esposito, Bourque, Thornton, Hull, Hull, Shanahan, Malkin, Beliveau, RIchard, Coffey.

That is just off the top of my head. Assumnig healthy, both McDavid and MacKinnon will take them down, but lets be patient for them to actually do it.

 

[hamzarocks]

In 10 years maybe when they're both flirting with 2000 points, sure. Until then you're insulting a whole list of greats, who have multiple Cups, 500/600/700+ goals.

I agree, skill wise, sure, but you're also comparing 2024 technology to pre 2000's for most. Apples and oranges.

Put up the points, get some more individual hardware, and most importantly win a Cup or two (McDavid) and then we can talk. Zero Cups and no chance he is top 3 of all time.

Messier, Howe, Francis, Jagr, Selanne, Dionne, Yzerman, Sakic, Lidstrom, Crosby, Ovechkin, Esposito, Bourque, Thornton, Hull, Hull, Shanahan, Malkin, Beliveau, RIchard, Coffey.

That is just off the top of my head. Assumnig healthy, both McDavid and MacKinnon will take them down, but lets be patient for them to actually do it.

From your list no one is greater than Mcdavid besides Howe

Crosby, Lidstrom, Hull, Ray Bourque, Beliveau, OV, Jagr, Howe, Richard, & Esposito are over Mackinnon

Mcdavid had a top 3-4 playoff run ever laat year.

HE has been a top 5 player in the playoffs. Look at his ppg, he dominates at higher levels than anyone besides a handful of guys.

5 rosses
4 Lindsays
3 Harts
1 richard
4th fastest to 1000 career points

How many players on that list has that level of peak + sustained prime play?

Orr is ranked 3rd or 4th all time and his career was shorter and he won 2 cups in a 12 team league on a stacked bruins team

 

[CanadienShark]

But according to Oilers fans McDavid has been playing with the “2nd best player in the league” for years now.

Before MacKinnon actually broke out and Kucherov remained at such a high level, there was a legit argument. Realistically, until last season, he had an argument to be in that spot. MacKinnon and Kucherov blew him out of the water since then.

 

[OilersFanatics505]

That’s a lot of words to say he hasn’t won an Art Ross.

To be fair, he has won a cup though. I’m sure McDavid would give up every Art Ross for a cup.

 

[thadd]

I think, like Kucherov, he can hang around with McDavid. I think the reason why McDavid is considered above them is due to the longevity of his dominance, right from the get go he was among the best.

As of today though? Yeah, I would think he is there.

???

Kucherov and MacKinnon play with much greater groups of players. That's why they can hang with McDavid.

 

[Murzu]

???

Kucherov and MacKinnon play with much greater groups of players. That's why they can hang with McDavid.

Drai, Bouchard??

 

[benfranklin]

From your list no one is greater than Mcdavid besides Howe

Crosby, Lidstrom, Hull, Ray Bourque, Beliveau, OV, Jagr, Howe, Richard, & Esposito are over Mackinnon

Mcdavid had a top 3-4 playoff run ever laat year.

HE has been a top 5 player in the playoffs. Look at his ppg, he dominates at higher levels than anyone besides a handful of guys.

5 rosses
4 Lindsays
3 Harts
1 richard
4th fastest to 1000 career points

How many players on that list has that level of peak + sustained prime play?

Orr is ranked 3rd or 4th all time and his career was shorter and he won 2 cups in a 12 team league on a stacked bruins team

AND LOST!

We look at the greats in terms of Cups, goals, points, and longevity. Not how many points they put up in a playoff run and lost because their team into 7 games series multiple times.

That is insulting to the greats of this game. This isnt best of all time in their prime. This is best of all time when their career is done and if it ended today, he would be 97th overall, 373 goals "only" with zero Cups, and a bunch of individual hardware so propel him up to top 75, maybe top 50 if you stretch it.

He needs to actually do it before you give him top 5 ever lol

 

[hamzarocks]

AND LOST!

We look at the greats in terms of Cups, goals, points, and longevity. Not how many points they put up in a playoff run and lost because their team into 7 games series multiple times.

That is insulting to the greats of this game. This isnt best of all time in their prime. This is best of all time when their career is done and if it ended today, he would be 97th overall, 373 goals "only" with zero Cups, and a bunch of individual hardware so propel him up to top 75, maybe top 50 if you stretch it.

He needs to actually do it before you give him top 5 ever lol

Bobby Orr didnt do it and hes ranked 3rd or 4th all time

Cups are team driven. Ranking players on cups is how a guy like Jonathon Toews made the top 100 list while Malkin didnt

Mcdavid has accomplished more in his first 1000 NHL pts then maybe 3-4 players all time

 

[benfranklin]

Bobby Orr didnt do it and hes ranked 3rd or 4th all time

Cups are team driven. Ranking players on cups is how a guy like Jonathon Toews made the top 100 list while Malkin didnt

Mcdavid has accomplished more in his first 1000 NHL pts then maybe 3-4 players all time

Orr is the exception and Id love to hear people who were following him in 1974 if he was crowned that at the time or after his career ended.

I didnt rank that so terrible example that we all agreed was driven based off recent seasons and not actual analysis.

So youre basing a career ranking off what players did in their first thousands games only quite literally in their prime and ignoring any regression.

If McDavid never wins a Cup, never wins another individual trophy, and regresses to a 30-40-70 player for the last 500 games of his career, he will finish top 30 in scoring all time. Sure the peak prime was there, but he needs to finish his career still to anoint him the top spots and is insulting to guys like Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, etc who have the numbers.

 

[hamzarocks]

Orr is the exception and Id love to hear people who were following him in 1974 if he was crowned that at the time or after his career ended.

I didnt rank that so terrible example that we all agreed was driven based off recent seasons and not actual analysis.

So youre basing a career ranking off what players did in their first thousands games only quite literally in their prime and ignoring any regression.

If McDavid never wins a Cup, never wins another individual trophy, and regresses to a 30-40-70 player for the last 500 games of his career, he will finish top 30 in scoring all time. Sure the peak prime was there, but he needs to finish his career still to anoint him the top spots and is insulting to guys like Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, etc who have the numbers.

If you are expecting him to regress to the level of player you mentioned when worse players in Jagr, OV, Crosby didnt fall of that level and no other legend fell that hard then you are arguing in bad faith.

Mcdavid even this year despite a slow start and the injury is still 12th-13th in ppg right now. We saw last year same story and he endee 2nd in ppg.

Mcdavid has another half a decade of being a ~120 pt player

 

[geebster]

From your list no one is greater than Mcdavid besides Howe

Crosby, Lidstrom, Hull, Ray Bourque, Beliveau, OV, Jagr, Howe, Richard, & Esposito are over Mackinnon

Mcdavid had a top 3-4 playoff run ever laat year.

HE has been a top 5 player in the playoffs. Look at his ppg, he dominates at higher levels than anyone besides a handful of guys.

5 rosses
4 Lindsays
3 Harts
1 richard
4th fastest to 1000 career points

How many players on that list has that level of peak + sustained prime play?

Orr is ranked 3rd or 4th all time and his career was shorter and he won 2 cups in a 12 team league on a stacked bruins team

That's a pretty uninformed post. There's more nuance to these things than just listing awards or stats. Do you think if McDavid grew up in the 70s with that training and technology and played in the 80s on a random team he'd have won those awards with Gretzky's Oilers in the league? So does that mean that everyone in the 80's who wasn't on the Oilers is or isnt automatically disqualified due to lack of awards?

Personal awards and peak are proof he is supremely talented and skilled. Talent and skill compared to the league they play in, sure you can make a case for him to be up there with Mario and Bobby Orr (who you seem to know little about if you don't think he's above McDavid) and Gretz etc. But career isn't just about personal achievement.

If you put McDavid anywhere in the top 30 he'd probably be the guy with the least team success. This is a team sport and he's the captain and player with the puck the most on his team. I personally have him in my top 20 if he retired right now but that's only because I've seen his whole career and that biases me towards his skill. How can he be above guys who also led the league in scoring but then won their teams Stanley Cups as well? Are they faulted for winning more in the playoffs and therefore playing fewer game 7s? Should we fault skilled guys who gave up some scoring to play tough defense and backchecking in the playoffs? Or guys that played in eras where scoring was harder but they still got it done when it mattered? Does scoring 2 goals in a 5-3 playoff loss matter more than scoring one in a 1-0 playoff win?

He's had a great peak but just like Ovi 10 years ago there are questions about whether his peak will amount to anything. If he retired right now it'd be disrespectful to put him on an NHL Mt Rushmore. In the pantheon of the game he's on the list of most skilled offensive players and I fully expect he will be a top 5 ish guy when all is said and done, can't imagine him not winning at all. But the thread is right now.

 

[hamzarocks]

That's a pretty uninformed post. There's more nuance to these things than just listing awards or stats. Do you think if McDavid grew up in the 70s with that training and technology and played in the 80s on a random team he'd have won those awards with Gretzky's Oilers in the league? So does that mean that everyone in the 80's who wasn't on the Oilers is or isnt automatically disqualified due to lack of awards?

Personal awards and peak are proof he is supremely talented and skilled. Talent and skill compared to the league they play in, sure you can make a case for him to be up there with Mario and Bobby Orr (who you seem to know little about if you don't think he's above McDavid) and Gretz etc. But career isn't just about personal achievement.

If you put McDavid anywhere in the top 30 he'd probably be the guy with the least team success. This is a team sport and he's the captain and player with the puck the most on his team. I personally have him in my top 20 if he retired right now but that's only because I've seen his whole career and that biases me towards his skill. How can he be above guys who also led the league in scoring but then won their teams Stanley Cups as well? Are they faulted for winning more in the playoffs and therefore playing fewer game 7s? Should we fault skilled guys who gave up some scoring to play tough defense and backchecking in the playoffs? Or guys that played in eras where scoring was harder but they still got it done when it mattered? Does scoring 2 goals in a 5-3 playoff loss matter more than scoring one in a 1-0 playoff win?

He's had a great peak but just like Ovi 10 years ago there are questions about whether his peak will amount to anything. If he retired right now it'd be disrespectful to put him on an NHL Mt Rushmore. In the pantheon of the game he's on the list of most skilled offensive players and I fully expect he will be a top 5 ish guy when all is said and done, can't imagine him not winning at all. But the thread is right now.

OV's peak wasnt as good or at least as long as Mcdavid's

2008-2010 was his peak then he fell off from competing for best player in the league for 2 years and wasnt a consistent top 3 player league wide outside of 13 and 15 until 2017

Mcdavid has been a top 2-3 player from 2017 until now.

MCdavid would be competing with gretzky for awards just like Lemieux did.

 

[Panthaz89]

Better. Not sure why you listed pace for a regular season when the debate is playoffs though, but lets twist stats to fit whatever narrative you want. Still doesnt change the fact they lost in the playoffs despite getting two layup rounds against the garbage Pacific.

How did McDavid do when the Cup was on the line? 0 points disappearing mumble crying in the locker room while his team ignored him.

How did MacKinnon do when the Cup was on the line? 1-1 in a 2-1 victory and 2nd place Conn Smythe voting. The other best player in the world took it home. Mr Makar.

MacKinnon simply won the Cup then decided he wanted to start going after Hart trophies and hasnt looked back since. Best player on the planet the last 2 years and on his way to his 2nd straight Hart/Lindsay.

Talk to me when McDavid learns how to play defense and actually wins something.

MacKinnon - 1A
Makar - 1A

McDavid - 3

Kucherov - 4

The rest of the bunch - Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Eichel, Rantanan, Panarin, Matthews, etc

McDavid literally finished the postseason at a +12 while Mack was -1 so his team was generally outscoring the opposition when he was on the ice that's the point of hockey is to outscore the other team. This isn't even taking into account his dominance on the powerplay lmao.

 

[MNRube]

I’d rather have him than McDavid for the next year or two. He’s just physically dominant and has more of edge than McDavid.

 

[thadd]

Drai, Bouchard??

Need more than three players to make up a hockey team last i checked

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I was about to say, MacKinnon is not in a tier with Kucherov and Draisaitl. I believe that based on his recent play he is much closer to McDavid. Like really who are we kidding, who watches these players and thinks Kucherov and Draisaitl are as good as MacKinnon?

What did I just read

 

[benfranklin]

What did I just read

MacKinnon > Kucherov and Draisaitl.

Translated for you.

If you are expecting him to regress to the level of player you mentioned when worse players in Jagr, OV, Crosby didnt fall of that level and no other legend fell that hard then you are arguing in bad faith.

Mcdavid even this year despite a slow start and the injury is still 12th-13th in ppg right now. We saw last year same story and he endee 2nd in ppg.

Mcdavid has another half a decade of being a ~120 pt player

You're basing your opinion assuming he will do that for the next x years with no regression. The whole premise is if he lost a leg tomorrow and was done.

- 97th overall in points
- 168th overall in goals and not hitting any of the illustrious 400/500/600/700/800 goal marks that so many ahead of him have.
- 0 Cups

That is not the resume of a top 5 player in this game.

Skill and potential, yes, we all agree he is one of the best we've ever seen. But he does not have the accolades yet.

 

[Calderon]

In 10 years maybe when they're both flirting with 2000 points, sure. Until then you're insulting a whole list of greats, who have multiple Cups, 500/600/700+ goals.

I agree, skill wise, sure, but you're also comparing 2024 technology to pre 2000's for most. Apples and oranges.

Put up the points, get some more individual hardware, and most importantly win a Cup or two (McDavid) and then we can talk. Zero Cups and no chance he is top 3 of all time.

Messier, Howe, Francis, Jagr, Selanne, Dionne, Yzerman, Sakic, Lidstrom, Crosby, Ovechkin, Esposito, Bourque, Thornton, Hull, Hull, Shanahan, Malkin, Beliveau, RIchard, Coffey.

That is just off the top of my head. Assumnig healthy, both McDavid and MacKinnon will take them down, but lets be patient for them to actually do it.

A lot of great players in that list but Francis and Shanahan were never considered even a top3 player in the league, hell maybe even not top10. Coffey is a bit iffy as well. They ended up amassing very respectable stats and were a part of very good teams but being one of the very best players in the world for a sustained period of time is what it's about. The legacy will then be built upon that by continuing to be high level for the rest of one's career.

McDavid has already achieved more than at least Dionne, Selanne, Thornton and Shanahan. I'm tempted to say ditto for MacKinnon.

 

[hamzarocks]

MacKinnon > Kucherov and Draisaitl.

Translated for you.

You're basing your opinion assuming he will do that for the next x years with no regression. The whole premise is if he lost a leg tomorrow and was done.

- 97th overall in points
- 168th overall in goals and not hitting any of the illustrious 400/500/600/700/800 goal marks that so many ahead of him have.
- 0 Cups

That is not the resume of a top 5 player in this game.

Skill and potential, yes, we all agree he is one of the best we've ever seen. But he does not have the accolades yet.

And again you are ignoring the clear precedent for a player who "lost a leg" and is ranked top 5 all time in Orr

His legacy if he retired today would be hes the 3rd to 5th best player ever to play the sport of ice hockey on per game basis for a career of almost 680 games

HIs legacy would be better if he retired today due to career ending injury due to what ifs

We will see if he keeps playing if he does fall off and ends 5th-8tth all time rather than 2nd-4th, if he does experience a Crosby like early fall off from clear cut best player in the world in his 27/28 year old season

 

[Regal]

A lot of great players in that list but Francis and Shanahan were never considered even a top3 player in the league, hell maybe even not top10. Coffey is a bit iffy as well. They ended up amassing very respectable stats and were a part of very good teams but being one of the very best players in the world for a sustained period of time is what it's about. The legacy will then be built upon that by continuing to be high level for the rest of one's career.

McDavid has already achieved more than at least Dionne, Selanne, Thornton and Shanahan. I'm tempted to say ditto for MacKinnon.

Yea, longevity matters but if a team could take someone like Francis or Shanahan for their entire careers or McDavid up until now, every team would take McDavid. Having the best in the world for years is so much more valuable than just a good star player for a career.

 

[benfranklin]

A lot of great players in that list but Francis and Shanahan were never considered even a top3 player in the league, hell maybe even not top10. Coffey is a bit iffy as well. They ended up amassing very respectable stats and were a part of very good teams but being one of the very best players in the world for a sustained period of time is what it's about. The legacy will then be built upon that by continuing to be high level for the rest of one's career.

McDavid has already achieved more than at least Dionne, Selanne, Thornton and Shanahan. I'm tempted to say ditto for MacKinnon.

Should we have a vote somewhere on here to see if the majority feel Cups impact a players legacy or not? Or if you have to be considered the best in the world for x years to be considered? Which what maybe 10-15 total players ever can claim they had at one time dating back to the 50s.

Dionne and Thornton are two comparables now because they never won a Cup, like McDavid. But Dionne has 700 goals and 1000 assists. Thornton has 400 goals and 1100 assists. Both are top 15 in scoring all time. This is pure math at this point. They have more points, plain and simple.

Selanne and Shanahan have the Cups, but also 600+ goals, which is a huge milestone in our sport, like it or not.

And again you are ignoring the clear precedent for a player who "lost a leg" and is ranked top 5 all time in Orr

His legacy if he retired today would be hes the 3rd to 5th best player ever to play the sport of ice hockey on per game basis for a career of almost 680 games

HIs legacy would be better if he retired today due to career ending injury due to what ifs

We will see if he keeps playing if he does fall off and ends 5th-8tth all time rather than 2nd-4th, if he does experience a Crosby like early fall off from clear cut best player in the world in his 27/28 year old season

Orr completely changed the game from the back end. McDavid is simply the highest scoring regular season player in an 8 year stretch. Pretend Makar wins 8 consecutive Norris's, 2 Art Ross's, 3 Hart's, 2 Conn Smythes, and 2 Cups. That is what Orr did as a defensemen, which is why he is the only player to get catapulted up the all time list that didnt have the longevity.

McDavid right now is on par with Jagr or Crosby or Ovechkin in terms of dominance during their prime, except he doesnt the Cups, which I still will argue until the end of the time, is a big deal for a players legacy.