Confirmed with Link: (NAS/MTL) Shea Weber for P.K. Subban

[David Singleton]

Until I actually see otherwise, I think Weber is the better player. Subban is closer to Josi then Weber for me.

Not picking on you triggrman (not that you care, lol), but I've always found the notion of determining the better player as... mostly senseless. Now, that doesn't mean I don't engage in those debates, but when I truly give it thought, I arrive back at it being senseless.

Firstly, it's so darn hard to pinpoint what you mean by "better". Better at what? Clearing the crease? Sure, Weber was the best at that on the Predators and one of the best in the league. Better at skating with the puck? Uh, no. And we could do this for just about any skill related to the position you'd like (positioning, first pass, etc).

Then there is the role a player has on the team to consider based upon the type of team or strategy the team employed.

And there's the role the team on the ice with him plays. Weber's penchant for just throwing the puck back up the wall- would that reflect as negatively on him if it were Mike Fisher on that fourth line as opposed to Gaustad? Likely not. Same play on Weber's part. In a vacuum, one still looks at the situation and feels like he has better options, but due to the better ability on Fisher's part to win a battle on the halfboards, or be quicker to the puck, than Gaustad, the overall outcome is better.

We haven't even got to the concept of defense itself. That video of Lavy from the USA coaching symposium does a pretty good job of giving Lavy's perspective. Lavy, in very simplified terms, subscribes to the theory that the best defense is a good offense. He wants to have the puck, keep the puck, get it back as soon as possible.

Given that, I can clearly see why Lavy would think that Subban is "better" than Weber. Weber's biggest skill flaw was his inability or lack of desire to drive the play and/or play with the puck. That happens to be the most cherished skill by the current coaching staff.

Eh, it's all subjective, lol.

 

[triggrman]

I guess my opinion is based a lot on the teams we had prior to Weber that could never clear out guys like Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros, etc, teams physically dominated our defensemen prior to Weber.

Finding guys like Weber to me are a lot tougher than finding puck movers but maybe again, being a Nashville fan has spoiled me, as we've had guys like Zidlicky, Timonen, Suter, Ekholm, Ellis, Franson and Josi, even to a smaller extent Hamhuis. We've never lacked puck movers on the back end. However, Weber is really the only big guy we've ever had that could play top line minutes.

 

[RaiderDoug]

I guess my opinion is based a lot on the teams we had prior to Weber that could never clear out guys like Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros, etc, teams physically dominated our defensemen prior to Weber.

Finding guys like Weber to me are a lot tougher than finding puck movers but maybe again, being a Nashville fan has spoiled me, as we've had guys like Zidlicky, Timonen, Suter, Ekholm, Ellis, Franson and Josi, even to a smaller extent Hamhuis. We've never lacked puck movers on the back end. However, Weber is really the only big guy we've ever had that could play top line minutes.

I think the game has changed from the Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros mold.

It's all about speed and how quick you can turn the puck around. Look at teams like the Blackhawks, Sharks, Penguins. It's all about flying around and pushing the puck out of your zone as quick as possible. Our main comp, teams like Dallas, the Hawks, are all speed and skill based. Even StL is trying to get faster.

Weber's great, but as his speed has declined (and he was never fast to begin with nor was he great with the puck), his game has become decidedly pre-lockout.

I can't remember the last time we came up against an opponent that just ground us into the ice - maybe the Sharks in the 06-07 era?

 

[Nordic*]

The best in the World for a 5 year period and still a top 10 defenseman. Norris trophy is a joke

Which 5 year period was Weber the best defenceman in the world!?

 

[David Singleton]

I guess my opinion is based a lot on the teams we had prior to Weber that could never clear out guys like Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros, etc, teams physically dominated our defensemen prior to Weber.

Finding guys like Weber to me are a lot tougher than finding puck movers but maybe again, being a Nashville fan has spoiled me, as we've had guys like Zidlicky, Timonen, Suter, Ekholm, Ellis, Franson and Josi, even to a smaller extent Hamhuis. We've never lacked puck movers on the back end. However, Weber is really the only big guy we've ever had that could play top line minutes.

I think the game has changed from the Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros mold.

It's all about speed and how quick you can turn the puck around. Look at teams like the Blackhawks, Sharks, Penguins. It's all about flying around and pushing the puck out of your zone as quick as possible. Our main comp, teams like Dallas, the Hawks, are all speed and skill based. Even StL is trying to get faster.

Weber's great, but as his speed has declined (and he was never fast to begin with nor was he great with the puck), his game has become decidedly pre-lockout.

I can't remember the last time we came up against an opponent that just ground us into the ice - maybe the Sharks in the 06-07 era?

I get it.

Even if the debate/worry is perhaps a little senseless, or no one ever agrees, it's still fun to talk hockey (in a civil and reasonable manner) in the middle of August beyond just the talk around contracts.

 

[Drake744]

Which 5 year period was Weber the best defenceman in the world!?

There wasn't one. But that's not to say he never has been at one point or another. He was one of the elites and a perennial Norris snub but I don't think anyone can really say that he was definitely the best in the world for any lengthy period of time. The year Lidstrom won the Norris as a career achievement award of sorts over a deserving Weber was a complete joke though (2011?).

 

[nomorekids]

I guess my opinion is based a lot on the teams we had prior to Weber that could never clear out guys like Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Lindros, etc, teams physically dominated our defensemen prior to Weber.

Finding guys like Weber to me are a lot tougher than finding puck movers but maybe again, being a Nashville fan has spoiled me, as we've had guys like Zidlicky, Timonen, Suter, Ekholm, Ellis, Franson and Josi, even to a smaller extent Hamhuis. We've never lacked puck movers on the back end. However, Weber is really the only big guy we've ever had that could play top line minutes.

I think from a philosophical standpoint, you don't see teams built the way the old Red Wings\Blues and even Sharks teams were built anymore. When those teams were successful, the emphasis was on a combo of size, skill, and physicality in your top 6 forwards. Skating ability didn't matter as much, so it wasn't really a matter of how you got to the offensive zone so much as it was getting set up there and grinding and cycling. That all changed with two teams, IMO -- the Penguins and the Blackhawks. Both teams were more built on speed, skill, and a rush-based attack that came in waves. You could say that on paper they're "soft," they dont have a Shanahan, Bertuzzi, Tkachuk, etc that plants and causes havoc...they do that by creating chaos through rapid puck movement, finding seams, creating openings. Everyone, including us, is trying to copy that now. I think that's why there's been a shift toward puck moving defensemen that can facilitate a rapid breakout. I think where we'll miss Weber's creaseclearing and physicality more than anything is the penalty kill, but it's easier to find specialists for that kind of role than it is the guy you'll have on the ice for 20-25 ES and PP minutes.

That's my theory, at least.

 

[triggrman]

I hope you're correct.

 

[Gnashville]

which 5 year period was weber the best defenceman in the world!?

2009-2014

 

[glenngineer]

Who the better player is and which player is better for the team are two different discussions IMO. Weber is a great player. Subban is a great player. They play different styles so it's comparing apples to oranges, much like we used to debate Suter and Weber. Depending on what Poile and Laviolette are trying to do will dictate which player is better for the team. If they are going towards a more high powered, come at you all the time offense, I think Subban is the better fit. This may pan out or it may cost us. It's anyone's guess at this point. Maybe it allows Josi to excel even more than he has in the past as well as Subban. Maybe it exploits Josi and Subban. No way to tell really until we hit the ice. It's a great point of discussion and I'm excited about what Subban is going to bring to the table.

 

[braindead]

Old, slow, can't handle the puck, bad passer Weber scored 20 goals last year. It was his job to hang back and let Josi set up the plays. And he did exactly what his role was in Lavi's system.

Agree. If Josi is your partner, then 90% of the time your best pass is to Josi. Somehow that is translated into a belief that Weber is a bad passer or can't help with the breakout. I don't think those will be problems for him in Montreal.

 

[nomorekids]

I hope you're correct.

Well, look at the teams that have been successful in that time, and look at their defensive makeup. Keith, Seabrook, Letang, Burns, Doughty, McDonaugh -- these guys are all more in the Subban\Josi mold than they are the Weber mold. Weber is definitely a throwback guy, and it's easy to love a player like that...but it's tough to look at the way teams are building their back ends and say, "this is the way the league is going."

 

[nomorekids]

Old, slow, can't handle the puck, bad passer Weber scored 20 goals last year. It was his job to hang back and let Josi set up the plays. And he did exactly what his role was in Lavi's system.

I still don't understand who you think you're arguing with. No one is slamming Weber or saying he sucks...

 

[triggrman]

Well, look at the teams that have been successful in that time, and look at their defensive makeup. Keith, Seabrook, Letang, Burns, Doughty, McDonaugh -- these guys are all more in the Subban\Josi mold than they are the Weber mold. Weber is definitely a throwback guy, and it's easy to love a player like that...but it's tough to look at the way teams are building their back ends and say, "this is the way the league is going."

I think Seabrook and Doughty are closer to the Weber mold than the Josi mold, especially Seabrook.

 

[glenngineer]

I think Seabrook and Doughty are closer to the Weber mold than the Josi mold, especially Seabrook.

Agreed on Seabrook, strong disagree with the Doughty notion. Doughty, Josi and Keith are guys that control the puck and the flow of the game.

 

[jwhouk]

Using H-R.com's Point Shares over that six year period from 2008-09 to 2013-14:

Weber 56.3
Chara 56.0
Keith 51.8
Doughty 49.4
Boyle 49.1
Suter,R 46.7
Green 44.2
Campbell 41.0
Lidstrom 39.3
Karlsson 38.0
Letang 37.5
Pietrangelo 35.5
Girardi 32.4
Subban 32.0
Pronger 25.2
Beauchemin 23.6
E-Larsson 21.3

 

[rubco55]

Habs fan here....I've always loved PK aand you are getting a very talented player. Now, the Habs last year after losing Price, fell apart, a young captain and no player really capable to lead the group, even Subban who is not, yet, a leader. Also, Subban was not liked by everybody in the room and is not easy to coach (maybe Lavi will do a good job) and had a very busy (maybe too busy?) social life.

With Weber, just his presence because of his incredible leadership qualities and his toughness, make the Habs a better team. We needed a guy like that badly. More than we needed the flash and dash of Subban (especially after drafting Sergachev who is not far from being NHL ready). I think both teams will benefit immediately from the trade.
Now, before I leave, some people think there are issues with Subban.

Here is one of them..watch this: http://sprtsnt.ca/29LfGla

I wish the Preds a great season!

 

[NoNecksCurse]

^^ Great post

 

[De Montreal]

Habs fan over here. I still havent got over the trade really, even though I'm excited to see Weber play his first few games. Hopefully it works up for us but I'm not optimistic.

Local TV channel here in Québec will broadcast a good handful of Nashville games (TVA Sports). I will follow your team closely. Always thought of Nashville as one of the better team in the West, and now it's even more so with this trade.

I hope he absolutely rock it out for you - except against us. Or maybe, get a hat trick in a losing cause or something like that. lol

Edit: also, a friend of mine who have talked to someone within your organization told me Weber was absolutely pissed when he learned the news. He really liked it there in Nashville it seems so.

 

[Drake744]

^^^^^^I wouldn't be shocked in the least if Weber was pissed. He liked being here and embraced being here even though he could have gone elsewhere

 

[cynicalcitizen]

^^^^^^I wouldn't be shocked in the least if Weber was pissed. He liked being here and embraced being here even though he could have gone elsewhere

Offer sheet. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Adz]

Offer sheet. I'll just leave it at that.

Blinded the GM. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Drake744]

Offer sheet. I'll just leave it at that.

It's a smart business move. Make sure you'll make your money no matter what.

 

[Paranoid Android]

Offer sheet. I'll just leave it at that.

If Weber wanted to leave, an offer sheet is the worst way to go about it. They are matched 95% of the time. It's quite clear he just wanted to get paid.

 

[sparkle twin]

Habs fan over here. I still havent got over the trade really, even though I'm excited to see Weber play his first few games. Hopefully it works up for us but I'm not optimistic.

Local TV channel here in Québec will broadcast a good handful of Nashville games (TVA Sports). I will follow your team closely. Always thought of Nashville as one of the better team in the West, and now it's even more so with this trade.

I hope he absolutely rock it out for you - except against us. Or maybe, get a hat trick in a losing cause or something like that. lol

Edit: also, a friend of mine who have talked to someone within your organization told me Weber was absolutely pissed when he learned the news. He really liked it there in Nashville it seems so.

As excited as I am to have PK, I still have a hard time believing the trade happened and will miss seeing Weber out there.

This is one I really wish works out for both teams. Not that I wanted other players we've traded to fail, but I really want Weber to do well up in MTL.