Salary Cap: Muzzin OR Barrie (Pick One)

[Big Muddy]

I'd assume Pietrangelo or Parayko would join us and provide discounts, so that would be the 1st option. Otherwise, both Barrie & Muzzin would be willing to provide deep discounts I'm sure to accommodate Leaf org aspirations.

Dubas has a way of getting players to understand the big picture and why the team is a bit more important than just getting personal max money. I am sure he will have the same results with Barrie and Muzzin and this dominating defense will be brought back intact next season.

I agree. Like many folks have said, can't argue with the great results with the big three + Tavares contracts. Glad we got reasonable deals on these four players enabling us to keep all of our other middle of the lineup talent.

 

[nuck]

Well, I suppose it depends on who Barrie gets paired off with full time. A more defensively responsible defencemen pairing off with him would of course be ideal but may not be necessary. I assume the idea is you don't necessarily "need" a stay at home defencemen if you're moving the puck out of your own zone fast enough . If you have 2 options capable of moving the puck, it makes it "easier" to avoid being hemmed in your zone. Pairing him would Rielly was/is a good idea in theory , as he's more defensively responsible while also being very good at the offensive side of the game. I think there's a couple reasons why it hasn't been as good of a pair as it could be, 1 is due to Barrie being a new team mate and is just now re-adjusting his role on the team, and 2, Rielly has been carrying an injury all year.

I understand the desire to want a puck mover on one side and a stay at home on the other, I don't necessarily even disagree with that logic but it may not be necessary . I also don't think Barrie is as bad defensively as people make him out to be, I think he does just "enough". Holl has definitely been a surprise, but I think we have to tempur our expectations a little bit, we have to see what he can do in the playoffs and next season. I do think the style of his play is sustainable though. As for Liljegren, I'm pretty sure he was billed as a good puck mover at the draft and now has turned into a good defensive player as well. I hope he makes the NHL and sticks long term, Leafs could use a guy like him for next season . Personally, I'd like to keep Barrie , there aren't too many guys on defence that can put up 50+ points consistently like he does. I think our defence looks better with him in it for next year and I think we can afford to give Sandin another year in the Marlies as he's still just 19 years old.

The thing about PMD is that they carry a salary value that is normally a bit out of line with what they actually are able bring in the win column. Barrie will not be signing for Brett Pesce or even Jacob Slavin money and who do you like more? It seems like there is the offensive market price and a different one for those who don't fill the net, and point totals are used more than actual effectiveness.. Barrie makes way more sense if you don't have a Rielly or maybe with a couple fewer sniping offensive forwards so a push from the back is more needed, but the team is full of guys that need the puck all the time. I think there is a reason why most of the Cup winners in the cap era have gone with only one offensive catalyst on the back end, and sometimes not really any. Preventing goals wins more playoff games than scoring them, and the club already is a bit weak in that department.

Also Barrie is making $6M this season and if he has any kind of a decent year he will want a raise and maybe a NT. If he doesn't have a good year, you don't resign him, so there is no reason to expect a bargain. At $6.25+ they would need to choose between him and Rielly in two years when MRs next deal is due, or trade a top forward to create the space. If they are going to need to trade Willie to make room for Barrie why don't they trade both now and get a legit stud on D?

I think Barrie is much more of a replacement for Rielly than a complement. Only 13 teams had a 50pt defenseman last season, and the Jets lost theirs. There are a whole bunch of clubs that have greater need for him than the Leafs now, and in the future. He isn't a missing piece, and his game is not one where the club would benefit from committing $6.5 x 6 to.

 

[ULF_55]

This is a really tough one, but for me comes down to term and price.

I'm concerned about Muzzin's footspeed.
I'm concerned about Barrie's defense.

Who covered up for Barrie's defense in Colorado? Maybe no one did and that's why he was their worst +/- for full time defenders last year? And worst over the past 5 years?
I know NHL.com Stats doesn't tell the entire story, but it is a chapter.

I don't think either are worth more than 5 per season.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Muzzy will resign with us. He loves it here. and most importantly of all his wife wants to be near her parents in Woodstock. Maybe #2 is in the hopper.

 

[ToneDog]

I agree. Like many folks have said, can't argue with the great results with the big three + Tavares contracts. Glad we got reasonable deals on these four players enabling us to keep all of our other middle of the lineup talent.

And let's not forget enabling us to acquire a capable backup that we trust to play more than just one game of a back to back.

 

[goleafsgo1990]

I agree. Like many folks have said, can't argue with the great results with the big three + Tavares contracts. Glad we got reasonable deals on these four players enabling us to keep all of our other middle of the lineup talent.

you forgot

 

[Big Muddy]

And let's not forget enabling us to acquire a capable backup that we trust to play more than just one game of a back to back.

Small/tiny glitch. Hutch is rebounding now & will play well I suspect.

 

[goleafsgo1990]

This is a really tough one, but for me comes down to term and price.

I'm concerned about Muzzin's footspeed.
I'm concerned about Barrie's defense.

Who covered up for Barrie's defense in Colorado? Maybe no one did and that's why he was their worst +/- for full time defenders last year? And worst over the past 5 years?
I know NHL.com Stats doesn't tell the entire story, but it is a chapter.

I don't think either are worth more than 5 per season.

I would sign Muzz to no more than 3 years. Wouldn't touch Barrie with a 1000 foot pole and would try to parlay him into a reliable top-4 D.

We need more Muzz type defenders but younger and more mobile versions, kinda like Holl. Barrie, Ceci and Rielly are what's really hurting this team at the moment.

Ceci needs to go too or at the very least stay on the 3rd pairing..

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

We need a player like Muzzin, we have players like Barrie already. I'm all for speed and skill but we still need a shutdown pair.

 

[Big Muddy]

Muzzy will resign with us. He loves it here. and most importantly of all his wife wants to be near her parents in Woodstock. Maybe #2 is in the hopper.

Muzzin has more than one wife?

 

[hobarth]

I would sign Muzz to no more than 3 years. Wouldn't touch Barrie with a 1000 foot pole and would try to parlay him into a reliable top-4 D.

We need more Muzz type defenders but younger and more mobile versions, kinda like Holl. Barrie, Ceci and Rielly are what's really hurting this team at the moment.

Ceci needs to go too or at the very least stay on the 3rd pairing..

TO's winning, Rielly is +7, Ceci is +6, Barrie at -4 is constantly improving and now that he's on TO's first PP unit and it's doing way better, so how exactly are they hurting TO?

 

[meefer]

Well, I suppose it depends on who Barrie gets paired off with full time. A more defensively responsible defencemen pairing off with him would of course be ideal but may not be necessary. I assume the idea is you don't necessarily "need" a stay at home defencemen if you're moving the puck out of your own zone fast enough . If you have 2 options capable of moving the puck, it makes it "easier" to avoid being hemmed in your zone. Pairing him would Rielly was/is a good idea in theory , as he's more defensively responsible while also being very good at the offensive side of the game. I think there's a couple reasons why it hasn't been as good of a pair as it could be, 1 is due to Barrie being a new team mate and is just now re-adjusting his role on the team, and 2, Rielly has been carrying an injury all year.

I understand the desire to want a puck mover on one side and a stay at home on the other, I don't necessarily even disagree with that logic but it may not be necessary . I also don't think Barrie is as bad defensively as people make him out to be, I think he does just "enough". Holl has definitely been a surprise, but I think we have to tempur our expectations a little bit, we have to see what he can do in the playoffs and next season. I do think the style of his play is sustainable though. As for Liljegren, I'm pretty sure he was billed as a good puck mover at the draft and now has turned into a good defensive player as well. I hope he makes the NHL and sticks long term, Leafs could use a guy like him for next season . Personally, I'd like to keep Barrie , there aren't too many guys on defence that can put up 50+ points consistently like he does. I think our defence looks better with him in it for next year and I think we can afford to give Sandin another year in the Marlies as he's still just 19 years old.

I understand the allure of Barrie, I'm just not sure I'm sold on his value to the team vis a vis team defense. Were I able to cobble a D corp with Barrie and Rielly both being paired with more capable D partners, I'd be very happy as I'd see us having two capable pairs who have balancing strengths, for example, Rielly and a better Hainsey with Barrie and Muzzin in a 1a/1b scenario. Very attractive. Today, I'd reluctantly offer up Barrie to teams that are in need of scoring from the back end, and who have a player that would balance with Rielly in a positive way. A few years back at the made up tournament in the fall, Rielly was paired first with Tanev (who of course got hurt) and then Parayko. Both pairing looked great, I'd like to see something like that. Muzz, when he returns, and Holl have been good, and then (please try it) Liljegren with Dermott...I think I could live with that D group.

 

[leburn98]

How I look at it is that losing Muzzin means you still have a left side of Rielly, Dermott and Sandin which is pretty solid. Losing Barrie (and Ceci) means you have Holl and maybe Lilly on the right side. If I am the Leafs, I would make Pietrangelo priority number one this summer, but if that is out of the question, then I would see what Barrie is asking. Of course, this also comes down to Keefe's and Dubas' philosophy on their D playing on their natural side. If they are not a stickler for D playing on their natural side, then maybe re-signing Muzzin and moving Dermott to the right makes more sense.

 

[KuleminFan41]

I understand the allure of Barrie, I'm just not sure I'm sold on his value to the team vis a vis team defense. Were I able to cobble a D corp with Barrie and Rielly both being paired with more capable D partners, I'd be very happy as I'd see us having two capable pairs who have balancing strengths, for example, Rielly and a better Hainsey with Barrie and Muzzin in a 1a/1b scenario. Very attractive. Today, I'd reluctantly offer up Barrie to teams that are in need of scoring from the back end, and who have a player that would balance with Rielly in a positive way. A few years back at the made up tournament in the fall, Rielly was paired first with Tanev (who of course got hurt) and then Parayko. Both pairing looked great, I'd like to see something like that. Muzz, when he returns, and Holl have been good, and then (please try it) Liljegren with Dermott...I think I could live with that D group.

I understand what you're saying completely and I don't necessarily disagree. I think that Barrie's defence gets criticized more than I think it should and he and similar players seem to fit a Dubas-Keefe way of playing. In a perfect world, we'd have all 6 guys capable of moving the puck well enough and playing good defence but it all depends on the way the team is built. I think there's a reason why a guy like Barrie was brought in because he fits more of that vision held by Dubas as opposed to a defencemen who plays more of a shut down role. I do believe Rielly is playing hurt, he just doesn't look the same and he missed practice several times too. I'm unsure about our d-core next season, Ceci is going, both Barrie and Muzzin could go, the Leafs could very well struggle next season. I'm not sure I trust a defensive core of Rielly, Dermott, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. Maybe Muzzin stays but its also very possible he goes too. There's a bit too many question marks such as whether or not Holl continues to play this way next year, whether or not Dermott can make a leap in development and whether or not Sandin and Liljegren are ready because there's going to be a lot of pressure on 2 rookies playing defence. Now, obviously Dubas would likely find someone to fill a hole but who realistically would he get?

The thing about PMD is that they carry a salary value that is normally a bit out of line with what they actually are able bring in the win column. Barrie will not be signing for Brett Pesce or even Jacob Slavin money and who do you like more? It seems like there is the offensive market price and a different one for those who don't fill the net, and point totals are used more than actual effectiveness.. Barrie makes way more sense if you don't have a Rielly or maybe with a couple fewer sniping offensive forwards so a push from the back is more needed, but the team is full of guys that need the puck all the time. I think there is a reason why most of the Cup winners in the cap era have gone with only one offensive catalyst on the back end, and sometimes not really any. Preventing goals wins more playoff games than scoring them, and the club already is a bit weak in that department.

Also Barrie is making $6M this season and if he has any kind of a decent year he will want a raise and maybe a NT. If he doesn't have a good year, you don't resign him, so there is no reason to expect a bargain. At $6.25+ they would need to choose between him and Rielly in two years when MRs next deal is due, or trade a top forward to create the space. If they are going to need to trade Willie to make room for Barrie why don't they trade both now and get a legit stud on D?

I think Barrie is much more of a replacement for Rielly than a complement. Only 13 teams had a 50pt defenseman last season, and the Jets lost theirs. There are a whole bunch of clubs that have greater need for him than the Leafs now, and in the future. He isn't a missing piece, and his game is not one where the club would benefit from committing $6.5 x 6 to.

I don't think its a fluke that once Barrie moved to the first PP unit and with the coaching change, the overall teams power play got better. He was brought in as a guy to help out the power play because Barrie is a specialist there. Keeping him on would actually help the Leafs win games because of it . A problem with the Leafs last year in the playoffs was special teams and their inability to score on the power play could have help them win the series against the Bruins. The Leafs went 3-17 in the series against Boston, in game 3 they went 2-3 and won 3-2, its safe to say the power play won them that game.

We ultimately don't know what Barrie would be willing to sign for. I don't see too many cup contending teams out there with the cash to spare to bring him in on an 7+ million per. I mean, look what Gardiner went for and some people thought he'd get 8. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Barrie will take a discount or anything, but its not implausible he returns on a good contract, ideally being a 4 year deal in my opinion. I think Barrie has more value to the team than you're giving him credit for, especially seeing as its harder to find guys who are true RHD but I also wouldn't give him a blank check either. As for the cap and the outlook in a couple years, you're assuming Rielly will command an arm and a leg, which neither of us knows if he will or not .We also cannot forget that the cap will go up, especially with a plethora of revenue streams coming in over the next couple years.

 

[meefer]

I understand what you're saying completely and I don't necessarily disagree. I think that Barrie's defence gets criticized more than I think it should and he and similar players seem to fit a Dubas-Keefe way of playing. In a perfect world, we'd have all 6 guys capable of moving the puck well enough and playing good defence but it all depends on the way the team is built. I think there's a reason why a guy like Barrie was brought in because he fits more of that vision held by Dubas as opposed to a defencemen who plays more of a shut down role. I do believe Rielly is playing hurt, he just doesn't look the same and he missed practice several times too. I'm unsure about our d-core next season, Ceci is going, both Barrie and Muzzin could go, the Leafs could very well struggle next season. I'm not sure I trust a defensive core of Rielly, Dermott, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. Maybe Muzzin stays but its also very possible he goes too. There's a bit too many question marks such as whether or not Holl continues to play this way next year, whether or not Dermott can make a leap in development and whether or not Sandin and Liljegren are ready because there's going to be a lot of pressure on 2 rookies playing defence. Now, obviously Dubas would likely find someone to fill a hole but who realistically would he get?



I don't think its a fluke that once Barrie moved to the first PP unit and with the coaching change, the overall teams power play got better. He was brought in as a guy to help out the power play because Barrie is a specialist there. Keeping him on would actually help the Leafs win games because of it . A problem with the Leafs last year in the playoffs was special teams and their inability to score on the power play could have help them win the series against the Bruins. The Leafs went 3-17 in the series against Boston, in game 3 they went 2-3 and won 3-2, its safe to say the power play won them that game.

We ultimately don't know what Barrie would be willing to sign for. I don't see too many cup contending teams out there with the cash to spare to bring him in on an 7+ million per. I mean, look what Gardiner went for and some people thought he'd get 8. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Barrie will take a discount or anything, but its not implausible he returns on a good contract, ideally being a 4 year deal in my opinion. I think Barrie has more value to the team than you're giving him credit for, especially seeing as its harder to find guys who are true RHD but I also wouldn't give him a blank check either. As for the cap and the outlook in a couple years, you're assuming Rielly will command an arm and a leg, which neither of us knows if he will or not .We also cannot forget that the cap will go up, especially with a plethora of revenue streams coming in over the next couple years.

You're correct, I don't think we disagree all that much. I too would love to see that perfect world scenario you describe. Obviously, cap constraints make that a very difficult situation to achieve. Like you, I think Rielly has been hurt this year, and again, Barrie's value has increased during Keefe's tenure because he's been utilized the way he should. We both agree that next year's corp is potentially dodgy if for no other reasons than age and experience, that's why I'd like to see Liljegren get an opportunity to taste the 'bigs' and for us to have a better understanding of his strengths and weaknesses. I'd be looking to re-sign Muzzin, trade Barrie for a Manson/Savard type RD (which might be part of larger deals as both are signed beyond this year), give Liljegren a view to see what we have and can he replace Holl, a UFA this year, or do we determine that Holl is someone we wish to re-sign? Many questions still to be answered. Essentially, I'd like to see next year's D something like:
Rielly (26)-Manson/Savard (29ish)
Muzzin (30)-Holl/Dermott (27/23)
Sandin (20)-Liljegen (21)

 

[TakeTheBody]

No offense to Barrie. Wish him well but this is a no brainer. Muzzin will cost less and to the Leafs bring more.

 

[Magic Man]

Keep Muzzin. He plays a physical, shut down game that I think would be harder to replace. I think he will get smaller contract that will be more digestible with the Leafs cap situation. Without Babcock, the LHD-RHD thing may not be as serious.

 

[al secord]

They will both be overpriced so i hope we come up with a better option.

 

[AvsGuy]

I had thought/hoped Barrie was turning it around since Babcock left... not so much?

I really thought he would be a great fit in Toronto, very perplexing

How's Kerfoot fitting in? Kadri is in a bit of a rut lately

 

[Clark4Ever]

Muzzin, for a couple of reasons. He provides a physical defensive presence on the blueline, and his cap hit will be much more palatable within the team salary stucture.

Barrie is a talented offensive defenceman, but his skill set is redundant on our roster, especially with Sandin and Liljegren on the horizon.

 

[cesareborgia]

Kadri.

 

[Anthrax442]

Barrie again with a leisure skate on a 2 on 1 tonite. Does he even know how to defend?

 

[HellasLEAF]

Come playoff time I definitely want Muzzin.

I like Barrie. But if I had to pick..

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

Muzzin but rather neither. I miss Jake Gardiner

haha said only you ever.

 

[Rielly4]

Definitely Barrie, he fits extremely well in our system even though i dont think he and Rielly are a pair longterm. Both are pretty bad defensively.

Pietrangelo would be the best fit but im not even sure its worth paying him big bucks. We really dont even need a top PP d man, we just need a guy who can skate, defend and pass...Kinda like a better version of Holl.