Proposal: Moving up a few spots in the draft

[Jame]

I'm higher on Risto than most and am a huge proponent of building from the backend out (I even championed the idea of drafting Ekblad over Reinhart last year if the opportunity were there). But I really don't think Risto and the firsts is that outrageous a proposal to make.

I likely wouldn't do it -- at the end of the day, I don't feel the difference between Eichel and Zacha/Strome/Marner is big enough to offset the loss of a potential No. 1 defenseman -- but to suggest it's crazy is off. That's both a realistic gauge of that pick's value and one that wouldn't set the Sabres back years and years.

"Some people want to win presidents trophies"...we're not talking about trading that package for Hall.

Trading Hanifin and Risto (along with 2 other high quality pieces) for Eichel is just bad roster building

It's like trading Neidernayer and Pronger for Getzlaf. Keith and Seabrook for Toews. Etc

1 step forward, 2 steps back

While everyone is going brain dead over possibly missing on McEichel, I'm looking at top 4 blueline that could absolutely dominate in the post season... Risto, Zads, Myers, Hanifin... To go along with 2 puck possession centers in Reinhart and Girgensons.

Awesome set up. Keep building. We may uncover a Perry, Getzlaf, Giroux, Carter, with the boatload of potentials we'll have.

Generational talent not needed.

 

[B U F F A L O]

Trading Hanifin and Risto (along with 2 other high quality pieces) for Eichel is just bad roster building

It's like trading Neidernayer and Pronger for Getzlaf. Keith and Seabrook for Toews. Etc

1 step forward, 2 steps back

While everyone is going brain dead over possibly missing on McEichel, I'm looking at top 4 blueline that could absolutely dominate in the post season... Risto, Zads, Myers, Hanifin... To go along with 2 puck possession centers in Reinhart and Girgensons.

Awesome set up. Keep building. We may uncover a Perry, Getzlaf, Giroux, Carter, with the boatload of potentials we'll have.

Generational talent not needed.

I cant wrap my head around why people cant understand this... Boston, LA, Chicago... where are their "generational talents"? You dont need it. You just need a collection of high quality players.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Trading Hanifin and Risto (along with 2 other high quality pieces) for Eichel is just bad roster building

It's like trading Neidernayer and Pronger for Getzlaf. Keith and Seabrook for Toews. Etc

1 step forward, 2 steps back

While everyone is going brain dead over possibly missing on McEichel, I'm looking at top 4 blueline that could absolutely dominate in the post season... Risto, Zads, Myers, Hanifin... To go along with 2 puck possession centers in Reinhart and Girgensons.

Awesome set up. Keep building. We may uncover a Perry, Getzlaf, Giroux, Carter, with the boatload of potentials we'll have.

Generational talent not needed.

Spot on. I'll be bummed if we miss out on Eichel or McDavid, but this team is already moving in the right direction. Take one of Hanifin or Marner and you've got another pillar in place moving forward and that's not even including the additional 1st rounders we have. There's a lot of talent in this draft outside of McEichel.

 

[Jame]

Don't get me wrong, ill trade up for Eichel. I just won't include the (IMO) 3 core blueliners and the 2 core centers.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

Don't get me wrong, ill trade up for Eichel. I just won't include the (IMO) 3 core blueliners and the 2 core centers.

That's exactly how I feel. We can give up draft picks and prospects below the "core". If it doesn't work, take best player available.

 

[gallagt01]

Trading Hanifin and Risto (along with 2 other high quality pieces) for Eichel is just bad roster building

It's like trading Neidernayer and Pronger for Getzlaf. Keith and Seabrook for Toews. Etc

1 step forward, 2 steps back

While everyone is going brain dead over possibly missing on McEichel, I'm looking at top 4 blueline that could absolutely dominate in the post season... Risto, Zads, Myers, Hanifin... To go along with 2 puck possession centers in Reinhart and Girgensons.

Awesome set up. Keep building. We may uncover a Perry, Getzlaf, Giroux, Carter, with the boatload of potentials we'll have.

Generational talent not needed.

I agree. I'm pro-tank, but I'm not in the "if Buffalo doesn't get McDavid/Eichel, this season is a failure" camp.

Like I said, I wouldn't do it. I'm on board the Hanifin train (I said that weeks ago in the draft thread). Hanifin-Risto and Zadorov-Myers is a top four far too good to pass up.

I just don't think the proposal was off base considering what you're trading for (Eichel) and how much it would cost to add that piece.

Murray (and Regier) has done a fantastic job early in the rebuild. I don't think he'd move the integral pieces he already has in place — the pieces Edmonton has seemingly avoided adding — to move up one spot. But that's absolutely what it would take and it wouldn't be out-of-this-world crazy if he did it considering what he'd be adding.

Like I said, this isn't Taylor Hall we're talking about.

 

[BananaSquad]

You'd also be giving up an extra top 4 pick.. Essentially a potential 1D and either a potential 1W (Marner) 1C (Strome) or another 1D (Hanifin) Plus a couple other 1st round picks in a deep draft.

That's straight out of Milbury's GM school. Eichel or McDavid are not worth sacrificing all that we have built. The way this rebuild has been gone about made sure that they'd be an icing on the cake. Not a fundamental addition. I'm not giving up the entire cake just for some icing, even though the icing is ****ing good.

Well said.

 

[Irving Zisman]

Trading Hanifin and Risto (along with 2 other high quality pieces) for Eichel is just bad roster building

It's like trading Neidernayer and Pronger for Getzlaf. Keith and Seabrook for Toews. Etc

1 step forward, 2 steps back

While everyone is going brain dead over possibly missing on McEichel, I'm looking at top 4 blueline that could absolutely dominate in the post season... Risto, Zads, Myers, Hanifin... To go along with 2 puck possession centers in Reinhart and Girgensons.

Awesome set up. Keep building. We may uncover a Perry, Getzlaf, Giroux, Carter, with the boatload of potentials we'll have.

Generational talent not needed.

I cant wrap my head around why people cant understand this... Boston, LA, Chicago... where are their "generational talents"? You dont need it. You just need a collection of high quality players.

Spot on. I'll be bummed if we miss out on Eichel or McDavid, but this team is already moving in the right direction. Take one of Hanifin or Marner and you've got another pillar in place moving forward and that's not even including the additional 1st rounders we have. There's a lot of talent in this draft outside of McEichel.

It's evidence and logic like this that should quiet the "all is lost without McEichel" crowd.

Another interesting tidbit about the "generational" talents of our era:

Ovechkin hasn't won a Cup, or even come close really.

People forget that the Penguins won an insanely close SCF against a Redwings team that lost Zetterberg and Ericsson; 2 hugely important defensive pieces that were often matched against Pittsburgh's top 6. Both of which had "generational" talents at C.

Do the Penguins win a Cup without those critical Detroit injuries? Do people harp on Crosby for playoff failures and lack of leadership for years and years, lamenting about Pittsburgh's lack of depth and over reliance of 2 superstars?

Of course Eichel or McDavid would help our cup chances immensely, and obviously having Crosby would do the same. But let's not forget the reality that many have pointed out how the Detroit's, Chicago's Boston and LA's built their championship teams.

 

[Rhett4]

Of course Eichel or McDavid would help our cup chances immensely, and obviously having Crosby would do the same. But let's not forget the reality that many have pointed out how the Detroit's, Chicago's Boston and LA's built their championship teams.

I'm not disagreeing with the overall premise here, but I don't know that Chicago quite fits with the examples. They might not have a "generational talent" but they have two bonafide first-line superstars drafted at 1 and 3 overall. The Sabres don't have any forwards that project to be as good as either, with Reinhart at least being in the ballpark. We're distinctly lacking in potential first-line talent, unless someone surprises. Picking at 1 or 2 this year would close that gap fast. With that said, I'd be fine with drafting Hanifin in order to make a D trade or moving the third pick (if they ended up there) for forward talent. I'd rather miraculously win the lotto and have this be a moot point though

 

[Irving Zisman]

Don't get me wrong, ill trade up for Eichel. I just won't include the (IMO) 3 core blueliners and the 2 core centers.

I wonder if Edmonton at 2 would trade down with us to 3 without giving up any of the "Big 5."

All 3 1st's and Grigorenko. Although I'd still have a very tough time trading a potential #1d AND 3 very good prospects for just one player... "Generational" or not.

 

[Rhett4]

I wonder if Edmonton at 2 would trade down with us to 3 without giving up any of the "Big 5."

All 3 1st's and Grigorenko. Although I'd still have a very tough time trading a potential #1d AND 3 very good prospects for just one player... "Generational" or not.

I think Edmonton would be more apt to pick Eichel at 2 and then try to trade you something around Hall for No. 3. In their minds, they would knock out their center problem and 1D problem in one draft, and they would move on from their "old (used loosely and sarcastically)" core. Then again, who the heck knows what Edmonton is thinking? ...

 

[Irving Zisman]

I'm not disagreeing with the overall premise here, but I don't know that Chicago quite fits with the examples. They might not have a "generational talent" but they have two bonafide first-line superstars drafted at 1 and 3 overall. The Sabres don't have any forwards that project to be as good as either, with Reinhart at least being in the ballpark. We're distinctly lacking in potential first-line talent, unless someone surprises. Picking at 1 or 2 this year would close that gap fast. With that said, I'd be fine with drafting Hanifin in order to make a D trade or moving the third pick (if they ended up there) for forward talent. I'd rather miraculously win the lotto and have this be a moot point though

I think that's somewhat of a fair point. I just see a Strome/Marner as a Kane, a Reinhart as a poor man's Toews, (but Girgensons & Reinhart as > than Toews and Shaw/Handzus), Zadorov or Myers as a Seabrook, and Risto as at least in the same ballpark as Keith.

But you're right, Kane and Toews have been consistent and dominant 1st line players for years, and we don't have that type of forward core... Yet.

 

[Irving Zisman]

I think Edmonton would be more apt to pick Eichel at 2 and then try to trade you something around Hall for No. 3. In their minds, they would knock out their center problem and 1D problem in one draft, and they would move on from their "old (used loosely and sarcastically)" core. Then again, who the heck knows what Edmonton is thinking? ...

One of life's greatest mysteries

I agree that Edmonton would make that trade, I just don't think Murray would touch it with a 10 foot pole. Then making Edmonton at least consider the offer I brought up

 

[ZeroPT*]

I wonder if Edmonton at 2 would trade down with us to 3 without giving up any of the "Big 5."

All 3 1st's and Grigorenko. Although I'd still have a very tough time trading a potential #1d AND 3 very good prospects for just one player... "Generational" or not.

To move up one spot? Just draft Hanifin or an elite forward like Marner/Strome. And keep building

 

[Zman5778]

Don't get me wrong, ill trade up for Eichel. I just won't include the (IMO) 3 core blueliners and the 2 core centers.

Exactly.

Pretty much anything else is on the table, all 3 1sts this year included.

 

[Irving Zisman]

To move up one spot? Just draft Hanifin or an elite forward like Marner/Strome. And keep building

Eichel is truly a special prospect, but yeah, that's why I said I'd have a very difficult time pulling the trigger on that deal.

 

[ZeroPT*]

If we're at 3 just keep building. Add a special player and continue building. If they'd take the 1sts and a guy like Baptiste or Fasching then sure go ahead but none of the other top end assets

 

[Irving Zisman]

If we're at 3 just keep building. Add a special player and continue building. If they'd take the 1sts and a guy like Baptiste or Fasching then sure go ahead but none of the other top end assets

So you're saying you'd trade all 3 1st's and Baptiste/Fasching, but not all 3 1st's and Grigorenko?

You're hard-on for Mikhail is pitching a greater tent by the minute.

It... "just keeps building."

 

[ZeroPT*]

So you're saying you'd trade all 3 1st's and Baptiste/Fasching, but not all 3 1st's and Grigorenko?

You're hard-on for Mikhail is pitching a greater tent by the minute.

It... "just keeps building."

Yes. What's so offensive about that statement?

Like I said, I had him at 1 heading into the 2012 draft and believe he just needs time. Most big body playmaking centers needed time before they broke out. Look at Jason Spezza,Getzlaf,Johansen. Barkov is taking his time developing. Daraisaitl is done as far as I'm concerned. Unless he gets the **** out of Edmonton.
As for Grigo he's worked on his weaknesses and is a much more complete player than before. I'm expecting an offensive explosion from him sooner rather than later.

What's wrong with thinking the difference between grigorenko and Eichel isn't that of another franchise prospect and two other first round picks in a very deep draft?

 

[Bps21*]

I'll be more bummed if draft defense than I will be if we miss out on McDavid and Eichel. I think people are literally insane about this. There are only so many minutes and so many spots on D. If I have first rounders playing 10 minutes on the third pair...while I'm still crossing my fingers on turning around the worst scoring offense of all time with depth of middle six guys....I did it wrong.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I wouldn't trade more than #3 and the next best 1st to move up to #2.

 

[SabresFan26]

I'll be more bummed if draft defense than I will be if we miss out on McDavid and Eichel. I think people are literally insane about this. There are only so many minutes and so many spots on D. If I have first rounders playing 10 minutes on the third pair...while I'm still crossing my fingers on turning around the worst scoring offense of all time with depth of middle six guys....I did it wrong.

Good defenseman who can break the puck out consistently and make outlet passes will contribute to more offense

 

[ZeroPT*]

I'll be more bummed if draft defense than I will be if we miss out on McDavid and Eichel. I think people are literally insane about this. There are only so many minutes and so many spots on D. If I have first rounders playing 10 minutes on the third pair...while I'm still crossing my fingers on turning around the worst scoring offense of all time with depth of middle six guys....I did it wrong.

Any of the three next guys would be welcomed additions to our core. I mean, Hanifin and Risto would be Weber/Suter reddux. And we've got prospects that project to be better forwards than Nashville had in their time. Plus, we'd be able to move a guy. Myers comes to mind.
Jack Johnson and a late 1st got Jeff Carter. I'm convinced that Myers can yield an excellent offensive player in return.

We could do that or draft a big body playmaker stud like Strome or a guy like Marner who are producing at stupid paces.

 

[Jame]

I'll be more bummed if draft defense than I will be if we miss out on McDavid and Eichel. I think people are literally insane about this. There are only so many minutes and so many spots on D. If I have first rounders playing 10 minutes on the third pair...while I'm still crossing my fingers on turning around the worst scoring offense of all time with depth of middle six guys....I did it wrong.

Nothing makes less sense than this

 

[Irving Zisman]

Yes. What's so offensive about that statement?

Like I said, I had him at 1 heading into the 2012 draft and believe he just needs time. Most big body playmaking centers needed time before they broke out. Look at Jason Spezza,Getzlaf,Johansen. Barkov is taking his time developing. Daraisaitl is done as far as I'm concerned. Unless he gets the **** out of Edmonton.
As for Grigo he's worked on his weaknesses and is a much more complete player than before. I'm expecting an offensive explosion from him sooner rather than later.

What's wrong with thinking the difference between grigorenko and Eichel isn't that of another franchise prospect and two other first round picks in a very deep draft?

What's wrong is that you're lumping Grigorenko in with the Big 5 that are a clear cut above him, both from a talent standpoint, and a roster-building standpoint.

To say that the difference in value between Grigorenko and excellent Power Forward prospects like Fasching and Baptiste is too great a difference for you to land Jack ****ing Eichel... is pure, unbridled Mikhail fan-boy homerism. This is the classic HFBoards over-valuation of your own teams prospects.

And you completely missed the point I made about my hesitancy to even do the 3 1st's and Grigs for Eichel deal. I mentioned I'd have to think long and hard about it, yet you kept bringing it up and said 'just keep building' about 4 times. (btw, is adding Eichel to the aforementioned core-5 not building in your eyes?)

I've now seen you make this Johansen comparison multiple times in different threads, which is silly. They're completely different players, especially when considering their play away from the puck.

Now let's try the Spezza comparison, in his 3rd post draft year: 111GP, 29g 76p

Grigs stats in the same timeframe: 47 games, 3g 6a 9p. And if Grigs stayed up for the rest of the year, do you think he'd even come close to the points/game pace and development that Spezza showed?

Getzlaf was also ahead at the same time, then won a Cup the following year, while being a solid contributor during that run.

Barkov is universally accepted to be a far superior prospect than Grigs.

Grigs has improved, but he has a longgg way to go to even be in the conversation. As much potential as he has, I see an unfortunate amount of Artem, Marek and Jiri in his game.