Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[666]

Every player has hot stretches during the season. Is this some revolutionary thing to you? It doesn't matter what year you choose, he got paid far more than his comparable/superiors (Rantanen being the the most similar situation).

8.5 still would have only put him a mere $750K below Rantanen.

History says it wasn't a hot stretch and Marner knew it. Rantanen played with Mackinnon. Marner played with Bozak, then Kadri then JT. It would be two seasons later when Marner started playing with Matthews and where coincidentally Matthews starting getting rockets. Compared to Eichel the Marner deal was fine.

You people have been debating this stuff for years. You must have better things to do.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Your reading comprehension is that of a 5-year-old.

The poster I responded to was saying Marner was 77th best in the league because he was 77th in goals, so I said based on his criteria, McDavid would be the 7th best player this playoffs.

Here is the post you are referencing.

I refuse to believe you are this dumb and don't comprehend this post, so I assume you are doing it intentionally which may be worse.

Now you're lying.

You didn't say "based on this criteria" as much as you'd like to pretend otherwise.

You said:
They messed up the Conn Smythe this year, McDavid was the 7th best player. Period.

If that's not what you meant to say, it's not a big deal, it happens all the time, hell I did something similar just the other day. Just say something like "oops, I misspoke" and that would be the end of it. But no, instead you're resorting to schoolyard insults.

You be you but it's hard to respect someone who can't ever admit making a mistake.

 

[notbias]

Now you're lying.

You didn't say "based on this criteria" as much as you'd like to pretend otherwise.

You said:
They messed up the Conn Smythe this year, McDavid was the 7th best player. Period.

If that's not what you meant to say, it's not a big deal, it happens all the time, hell I did something similar just the other day. Just say something like "oops, I misspoke" and that would be the end of it. But no, instead you're resorting to schoolyard insults.

You be you but it's hard to respect someone who can't ever admit making a mistake.

I sent you the quote, but you left out the original sentence which makes it obvious that I was referencing goals being all that mattered.

You can change it to fit your narrative if you want, but I am beginning to think you have the same IQ as years from the Leafs' Cup drought.

Here is my apology:
I am sorry you do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what I said in the context that it was said.

You throw insults around 24/7 here, why are you complaining about it?

 

[Gabriel426]

I can see that to an extent, but Marleau's $6.25x3 wasn't anywhere near as bad as Tavares' $11x7. JT's was more than four times the size.

Not just the contract but more having Marleau as mentor for the kids.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He had no choice to backtrack on his very public criticism of MLSE and the negotiations to that point

You seem to be confused whether you're listening to Ferris or not. You can't just wildly extrapolate claims out of a vague statement, and then ignore when a day later, that same person explicitly contradicts the report/your claims, says he was taken out of context, and outlines what actually happened.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I sent you the quote, but you left out the original sentence which makes it obvious that I was referencing goals being all that mattered.

You can change it to fit your narrative if you want, but I am beginning to think you have the same IQ as years from the Leafs' Cup drought.

Here is my apology:
I am sorry you do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what I said in the context that it was said.

You throw insults around 24/7 here, why are you complaining about it?

You didn't "send" me anything.

This sentence you mention isn't "the original" sentence, it's a sentence that was in a separate paragraph altogether.

If you mean abc, you could simply say abc instead of saying xyz expecting people to figure out what you really mean.

You've been insulting to me on a number of previous occasions, today you said I have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old and you say I "throw insults"? LOLOLOLOL.

BTW, I believe the expression you're looking for is "throw around insults", not "throw insults". I'm not going to trade insults with you because I'm an adult and I try to behave like one. I'll just say that if you want people to understand what it is you're trying to say you should put more effort into expressing yourself clearly. Have a nice day.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Except that when he was signed Tavares was clearly a first-line C and enjoyed full-UFA status so that came at a premium. Back then, he was a proven 35-goal scorer and PPG center on an Isles team that didn't score that many goals whilst also being right in his prime at 28 years old for the 2018 season.

The signing definitely wasn't cheap (slight overpay actually) and it indeed had an impact on how little money we later had to round-out our team, but it isn't the biggest contributing factor to our depth problems, far from it in my opinion.

The crux of the matter is that while Matthews had shown throughout the '18-'19 season that he was a superior player to Tavares and more important to the team, in the summer of 2019 he was also under control for 4 more RFA years when he re-signed with us. A fact that should have massively lowered the AAV of his deal vs. an older and much more proven Tavares.

Dubas should not have caved-in and given him all that money on only a 5-year deal, buying only a single UFA year. Period.

On a 5-year deal, with 4 full RFA years, Matthews shouldn't have gotten more than say $9-9.5M/year.

And following that logic, Marner shouldn't have made a dime over $8.5-9M.

We coddled our stars way too much, and paid for it dearly depth-wise, and on defense/goaltending.

Tavares was a 1C on a bad team. Matthews was almost certainly the 1C going forward, so JT would be 1C for one year, and 2C after that. We already had a couple of other centres, and Nylander has been drafted in that position as well.

Tavares on a one or two year deal would have been reasonable. Seven years at $11 per for a slow player who would be your 2C (at best) for all but year one was a huge mistake.

Yes, overpaying Matthews and Marner as RFAs was another bad move, but when your third or fourth best player, playing on the second line, is making that much, it's not surprising they thought they could get comparable.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I'm fine "losing" a trade. I'm not worried about change making the team worse. It's worse to not try at all

 

[notbias]

You didn't "send" me anything.

This sentence you mention isn't "the original" sentence, it's a sentence that was in a separate paragraph altogether.

If you mean abc, you could simply say abc instead of saying xyz expecting people to figure out what you really mean.

You've been insulting to me on a number of previous occasions, today you said I have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old and you say I "throw insults"? LOLOLOLOL.

BTW, I believe the expression you're looking for is "throw around insults", not "throw insults". I'm not going to trade insults with you because I'm an adult and I try to behave like one. I'll just say that if you want people to understand what it is you're trying to say you should put more effort into expressing yourself clearly. Have a nice day.

You also "throw around" comments like the above, trying to correct my grammar to insult me subtly and then complain about me insulting you, it's as clever as your posts.

Mostly, I insult you because it is fun to watch a grown man whine about people insulting him when he does the same to others.

I usually send posts with sentences on each line so that it is easier to read instead of walls of text, you just sent a very similar post.

Are all your sentences in this post unrelated to each other? Should I forget the context from sentence to sentence? What is the correct formatting of posts here? Do you mind sending the rubric?

Here is the full post as a screenshot so you can understand the context of it:

After this if you seriously can't comprehend the conversation here:
10 ESSENTIAL READS to improve reading comprehension

 

[notbias]

I'm fine "losing" a trade. I'm not worried about change making the team worse. It's worse to not try at all

I don't think a single trade can make the team bad enough to miss the playoffs, but would you be fine missing and being 10th last every year?

I think that is the worst case, a Calgary scenario (Conroy does seem to be doing a decent job rebuilding or is at least on the right path), where you are not good enough to make the playoffs, but not bad enough to draft franchise players.

I've watched the Leafs long enough to know that this is not as bad as it could be.

Trades just to make changes seems illogical, I want the team to be strategic in what they do and chase whatever makes the team better.

That may be trading Marner, it may be re-signing him, or it may be letting him walk.

 

[notDatsyuk]

And 4x the player...

One is currently a 2nd line C at the end of his contract, the other was a 4th line LW at the end of his.

There will always be overpayments on the team... I can't think of a single team without an overpayment.

Marleau was a 43 year old making $700K at the end. Tavares will likely be a 34 year old 3C or 3W making $11M next year.

Marleau had 3 seasons over ppg when we signed him - exactly the same number as JT.

 

[notbias]

Marleau was a 43 year old making $700K at the end. Tavares will likely be a 34 year old 3C or 3W making $11M next year.

Marleau had 3 seasons over ppg when we signed him - exactly the same number as JT.

He was never making 700k here, he was making $6.25 million.

What are you talking about?

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I don't think a single trade can make the team bad enough to miss the playoffs, but would you be fine missing and being 10th last every year?

I think that is the worst case, a Calgary scenario (Conroy does seem to be doing a decent job rebuilding or is at least on the right path), where you are not good enough to make the playoffs, but not bad enough to draft franchise players.

I've watched the Leafs long enough to know that this is not as bad as it could be.

Trades just to make changes seems illogical, I want the team to be strategic in what they do and chase whatever makes the team better.

That may be trading Marner, it may be re-signing him, or it may be letting him walk.

I wouldn't like that outcome for sure. However, we need to scrutinize our past 8 years of results don't you think? Cap hit optimization is huge and it's not going well at all

 

[notbias]

I wouldn't like that outcome for sure. However, we need to scrutinize our past 8 years of results don't you think? Cap hit optimization is huge and it's not going well at all

It was worse last year, that is my concern.

Using cap poorly is not a good solution to our lack of success.

As I said, whatever makes the team better, I am not sure that forcing a trade will do that.

Marleau was a 43 year old making $700K at the end. Tavares will likely be a 34 year old 3C or 3W making $11M next year.

Marleau had 3 seasons over ppg when we signed him - exactly the same number as JT.

Which 64 Cs are better than Tavares and which 128 Ws are better than Tavares?

 

[Gary Nylund]

You also "throw around" comments like the above, trying to correct my grammar to insult me subtly and then complain about me insulting you, it's as clever as your posts.

Mostly, I insult you because it is fun to watch a grown man whine about people insulting him when he does the same to others.

I usually send posts with sentences on each line so that it is easier to read instead of walls of text, you just sent a very similar post.

Are all your sentences in this post unrelated to each other? Should I forget the context from sentence to sentence? What is the correct formatting of posts here? Do you mind sending the rubric?

Here is the full post as a screenshot so you can understand the context of it:

View attachment 888561

After this if you seriously can't comprehend the conversation here:
10 ESSENTIAL READS to improve reading comprehension

More insults, I'm shocked. Go on, I'm listening.

 

[Antropovsky]

You can argue he was trending better than Draisaitl and he signed for 8.5 after his third year (77 points).

Although, Draisaitl was considered overpaid at the time.

I think Marner after year two and 69 points would be worth the Draisaitl contract (if we are using it as a comparison).

Not a perfect comparison obviously, but just the first one that came to my head.

It was because in January he finally got away from Bozak and started playing with Kadri and Marleau where he played at a 93 point pace and a 100 point pace in his last 26 games. How can you people post so often and not remember these basic things.

Trending better than Draisaitl their respective contract years?

Marner had a 93 point pace in last 26 games.

Draisaitl had 23 points in his last 14 games of his contract season. That's a 123 point pace. He also had 16 points in 13 playoff games that season.

Draisaitl also produced 11% more over the course od the year.

Draisaitl was 8th in points in the league his contract year. Not to mention is a big center, who had a 49% faceoff percentage and 4 short handed assists.

Marner, a small winger, was tied for 37th in the league in points the year before his reported 8.5/year asking price. 27 powerplay points that year.

Ehlers, a small winger, in his contract year had 64 points and was 30th in the league in points. Only 12 of those points were on the powerplay. He signed for 6 million over 7 years.

 

[notbias]

Trending better than Draisaitl their respective contract years?

Marner had a 93 point pace in last 26 games.

Draisaitl had 23 points in his last 14 games of his contract season. That's a 123 point pace. He also had 16 points in 13 playoff games that season.

Draisaitl also produced 11% more over the course od the year.

Draisaitl was 8th in points in the league his contract year. Not to mention is a big center, who had a 49% faceoff percentage and 4 short handed assists.

Marner, a small winger, was tied for 37th in the league in points the year before his reported 8.5/year asking price. 27 powerplay points that year.

Ehlers, a small winger, in his contract year had 64 points and was 30th in the league in points. Only 12 of those points were on the powerplay. He signed for 6 million over 7 years.

I stopped reading when you used different sample sizes to justify your position. 14 games? What?

I'd use their entire career up to that point as a reference like the agents likely used.

Draisaitl is not a perfect comparison, but he is a player with slightly more points who was older at the time of signing and signed for a contract that Marner reportedly wanted, I'm not sure there is a better comparison.

 

[francis246]

Trending better than Draisaitl their respective contract years?

Marner had a 93 point pace in last 26 games.

Draisaitl had 23 points in his last 14 games of his contract season. That's a 123 point pace. He also had 16 points in 13 playoff games that season.

Draisaitl also produced 11% more over the course od the year.

Draisaitl was 8th in points in the league his contract year. Not to mention is a big center, who had a 49% faceoff percentage and 4 short handed assists.

Marner, a small winger, was tied for 37th in the league in points the year before his reported 8.5/year asking price. 27 powerplay points that year.

Ehlers, a small winger, in his contract year had 64 points and was 30th in the league in points. Only 12 of those points were on the powerplay. He signed for 6 million over 7 years.

Your sample sizes don’t match, not sure what you’re comparing here. You talk about Marner’s sample size being his last 26 games but then compare it to Drisaitl’s last 14 games lol?!?!

Then talking about Ehlers whose point totals don’t even come close to Rantanen and Marner’s. Not sure what the argument being made is here.

 

[Antropovsky]

I stopped reading when you used different sample sizes to justify your position. 14 games? What?

I'd use their entire career up to that point as a reference like the agents likely used.

Draisaitl is not a perfect comparison, but he is a player with slightly more points who was older at the time of signing and signed for a contract that Marner reportedly wanted, I'm not sure there is a better comparison.

You said he was "trending" better than Draisaitl.

Ok let's use the same sample size:

Draisaitl last 14 games he had 23 points.

Marner last 14 games he had 15 points.

It looks like Draisaitl was "trending" better.

Draisaitl finished season with 11% more points than Marner over same amount of games.

Draisaitl finished 8th in league scoring.

Marner finished tied for 37th

 

[notDatsyuk]

He was never making 700k here, he was making $6.25 million.

What are you talking about?

You're referring to his last year with Toronto? Ok.

Fifth in ES ice time doesn't sound like a 4th liner (and not bad for a guy almost 40).

But since we haven't seen JT's last season here, let's look at second-last.

Marleau had 22 goals and 38 points at ES, 4th in ES ice time, for $6.25M.

JT had 20 goals and 45 points at ES, 4th in ES ice time (and almost identical ES TOI), for $11M.

Four times the player?

 

[notbias]

You said he was "trending" better than Draisaitl.

Ok let's use the same sample size:

Draisaitl last 14 games he had 23 points.

Marner last 14 games he had 15 points.

It looks like Draisaitl was "trending" better.

Why 14 games? Makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Antropovsky]

Why 14 games? Makes absolutely no sense.

Exactly.. why 23? Why not use 82?

 

[notbias]

You're referring to his last year with Toronto? Ok.

Fifth in ES ice time doesn't sound like a 4th liner (and not bad for a guy almost 40).

But since we haven't seen JT's last season here, let's look at second-last.

Marleau had 22 goals and 38 points at ES, 4th in ES ice time, for $6.25M.

JT had 20 goals and 45 points at ES, 4th in ES ice time (and almost identical ES TOI), for $11M.

Four times the player?

I am referring to the last year he was supposed to play in Toronto.

27 point pace (22 real points) playing 15 minutes a night, not sure that is worth $6.25 million, and is probably about 1/4 the player Tavares will be here, yes.

The points are terrible 3rd line/decent 4th line level, the playing time is a 2nd/3rd liner, so he should hypothetically be producing more with more ice time, but he wasn't, and that's why I say he was 4th line level.

Exactly.. why 23? Why not use 82?

Please use the full season, it helps my argument.

Marner's 1st and 2nd years were better than Draisaitl's, that is how he was trending better, and the trend continued into their 3rd year.

 

[Petrus]

You seem to be confused whether you're listening to Ferris or not. You can't just wildly extrapolate claims out of a vague statement, and then ignore when a day later, that same person explicitly contradicts the report/your claims, says he was taken out of context, and outlines what actually happened.

Sure it is taken out of context. It’s Feschuk who reported it. He is notorious for this style of reporting. That does not negate his comments that there were being “lowballed” in light of what Matthews received. He also stated he wanted the same level of “respect” (for Marner) that was accorded to Matthews.

 

[MCR74]

I'm fine "losing" a trade. I'm not worried about change making the team worse. It's worse to not try at all

I'd rather lose a trade or lose him for nothing rather than continue to lose for the next 8 years.