Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[1specter]

LOL Willy and Matthews signed first! Marner signed after both those guys.

And where did I say otherwise? That's exactly my point genius. We tried a hard negotiation with Nylander and got him on a good deal, but bent for Matthews HOWEVER Matthews is a tier above Marner and even at the time with his goal scoring prowess and the fact that he played C he would've definitely had offer sheets had he hit RFA. When Dubas caved into Marner that was the straw that broke the camel's back and also created a false perception that Marner is on the same level when he is not. After what happened with Marner there was no way Nylander was going to be the one to take less again especially when comparing playoff performances.

And I’m sorry to break it to you, but this became about money long before Marner’s extension. When Matthews decided he wasn’t going to sign his ELC until August so he could get his bonus and when the Leafs decided that one guy would get a bonus and the other wouldn’t it made it about money.

The leafs have no one to blame but themselves. When you have 2 or more guys who are all elite you have to treat them equally or the same.

LA treated Kopitar and Doughty the same. Chicago treated Kane and Toews the same.

Pittsburgh treated Malkin and Crosby the same and when they didn’t, Crosby always had Malkin’s back to ensure he was treated the same as him.

Colorado treated MacKinnon the same as Landeskog and Rantanen.

Edmonton treated Draisaitl the same as McDavid.

Tampa treated Hedman, Vasi, Stamkos, Kucherov the same.

No one was more important than the other. Their negotiations were similar and expectations for each were similar. Toronto made a mess the moment they treated Nylander differently than Marner and Marner differently than Matthews. We can thank Lou for that. The message that being Leaf is more important than the individual should have been preached better, not 1 month before their ELC’s were about to expire.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you are saying, but some of your examples are also wrong. Many of those guys got paid a fair deal for what they were worth at the time, MacKinnon's contract aged well because he didn't perform that great on his ELC and didn't break out until 4-5 years into his career as a superstar whereas someone like Rantanen went straight to 9M/yr after ELC because of how well he performed. In many of these cases as well you could make the arguments that many of these players had comparable impacts to each other, whereas Matthews has clearly been the best of the 3.

 

[ACC1224]

And where did I say otherwise? That's exactly my point genius. We tried a hard negotiation with Nylander and got him on a good deal, but bent for Matthews HOWEVER Matthews is a tier above Marner and even at the time with his goal scoring prowess and the fact that he played C he would've definitely had offer sheets had he hit RFA. When Dubas caved into Marner that was the straw that broke the camel's back and also created a false perception that Marner is on the same level when he is not. After what happened with Marner there was no way Nylander was going to be the one to take less again especially when comparing playoff performances.


I don't disagree with the rest of what you are saying, but some of your examples are also wrong. Many of those guys got paid a fair deal for what they were worth at the time, MacKinnon's contract aged well because he didn't perform that great on his ELC and didn't break out until 4-5 years into his career as a superstar whereas someone like Rantanen went straight to 9M/yr after ELC because of how well he performed. In many of these cases as well you could make the arguments that many of these players had comparable impacts to each other, whereas Matthews has clearly been the best of the 3.

Caving to Nylander was Dubas first big mistake. Not accepting Marners offer (8.5x8) was the 2nd one. Signing Matthews before Marner was the 3rd one.

 

[1specter]

Caving to Nylander was Dubas first big mistake. Not accepting Marners offer (8.5x8) was the 2nd one. Signing Matthews before Marner was the 3rd one.

Nylander's deal was quite fair, I'm not sure how he 'caved'. What he signed for was in line with his comparables at the time while the other two received record setting deals. Nylander was also well outperforming his cap hit by the last few years of his deal whereas you can argue that Marner has never really been worth 11M.

 

[ACC1224]

Nylander's deal was quite fair, I'm not sure how he 'caved'. What he signed for was in line with his comparables at the time while the other two received record setting deals. Nylander was also well outperforming his cap hit by the last few years of his deal whereas you can argue that Marner has never really been worth 11M.

It has nothing to do with what he signed for or how that worked out. Caving showed the rest that if they wait Dubas out they will get what they want like Nylander did.

 

[1specter]

It has nothing to do with what he signed for or how that worked out. Caving showed the rest that if they wait Dubas out they will get what they want like Nylander did.

Again not sure how it was caving when it was reported that he wanted 8M and he ended up getting less, and the negotiation went to the bitter end.

 

[francis246]

And where did I say otherwise? That's exactly my point genius. We tried a hard negotiation with Nylander and got him on a good deal, but bent for Matthews HOWEVER Matthews is a tier above Marner and even at the time with his goal scoring prowess and the fact that he played C he would've definitely had offer sheets had he hit RFA. When Dubas caved into Marner that was the straw that broke the camel's back and also created a false perception that Marner is on the same level when he is not. After what happened with Marner there was no way Nylander was going to be the one to take less again especially when comparing playoff performances.


I don't disagree with the rest of what you are saying, but some of your examples are also wrong. Many of those guys got paid a fair deal for what they were worth at the time, MacKinnon's contract aged well because he didn't perform that great on his ELC and didn't break out until 4-5 years into his career as a superstar whereas someone like Rantanen went straight to 9M/yr after ELC because of how well he performed. In many of these cases as well you could make the arguments that many of these players had comparable impacts to each other, whereas Matthews has clearly been the best of the 3.

But that’s what I’m saying, Matthews was the first to rinse the team not Marner. IMO either Matthews and Marner should have been signed to matching 8x10 deals, just like Eichel. Or Nylander and Marner to matching deals at like 8.5 or 9. Matthews wasn’t head and shoulders better than Marner during the ELC years, Marner out produced him in total points which is why we ended up in this situation. Matthews has separated himself now but their first post ELC contract should have been similar just like Kane and Toews.

 

[Sypher04]

Caving to Nylander was Dubas first big mistake. Not accepting Marners offer (8.5x8) was the 2nd one. Signing Matthews before Marner was the 3rd one.

This has been talked about ad nauseum. But both Nylander and Dubas have stated on the record it was Nylander who reached out at that last minute looking to get a deal done. And the deal they ultimately agreed to was between Ehlers and Pastrnak so this idea that we caved to Nylander’s demands has never been well supported. Especially so when the reporting said originally that nylander wanted $8M

As for Marner, we have conflicting reports as to whether that 8.5Mx8 proposed deal actually existed or not. Some say it did, others have said Marner wanted to bet on himself and play through the final ELC year - especially once Tavares was signed and it was pitched that he and Marner would be linemates.

Definitely should have locked up Marner first so he couldn’t compare himself to Matthews but if Marner did in fact refuse to extend early then that takes some of that decision out of the team’s hands.

 

[Antropovsky]

Rodrigues was an RFA with Arb rights after the Leafs traded for him but became a UFA because Dubas didn’t give him a qualifying offer so he signed with the Penguins for $1M.

Good point. It was only 700,000 though. 1 million the next year.

 

[Kazparov]

Just watch the documentary or mini specials on the Marners. Very obviously pushed by the old man who worked every angle, networked and researched it all. He is good player but absolutely comes off as a puppy mill type product. A freaking foundation that is allegedly full of Family. What a freaking grift, would love to see the data of what % of the funds raised make it to the target after paying family members for their...services lol

Security Challenge

apps.cra-arc.gc.ca

That's the quick breakdown for 2023. You can do a deeper dive into the finances. Registered charities have a certain level of public transparency

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Rumour Roundup: Maple Leafs could make big pitch for pending free agent Tanev

Toronto Maple Leafs general manager Brad Treliving is very familiar with Chris Tanev. Could a reunion be next?

www.sportsnet.ca

What's up with Marner?

There has been non-stop discussion about Mitch Marner's future since the Leafs' season ended.

The talented winger holds a no-move clause as he enters the final year of his deal.

As of now, Friedman said he feels the most likely scenario is that Marner stays with Toronto -- at least for this season.

"I do believe the Leafs have considered internally making him a (contract) offer and see where it goes," Friedman said. "Until i get evidence that he's serious about going anywhere else, there's a serious offer for him to go anywhere else in terms of both the contract and trade, you have to convince me this is going to go any other direction."

This life is misery

 

[Kazparov]

View attachment 888164

Security Challenge

apps.cra-arc.gc.ca

That's the quick breakdown for 2023. You can do a deeper dive into the finances. Registered charities have a certain level of public transparency

So basically, zero money goes to charity.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Caving to Nylander was Dubas first big mistake. Not accepting Marners offer (8.5x8) was the 2nd one. Signing Matthews before Marner was the 3rd one.

Nylander caved. That Marner offer never existed. And they had to sign Matthews first to avoid having both hit RFA status simultaneously, and the signing really changed nothing.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nylander caved. That Marner offer never existed. And they had to sign Matthews first to avoid having both hit RFA status simultaneously, and the signing really changed nothing.

Dubas did everything right, and we just kept getting unlucky!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas did everything right, and we just kept getting unlucky!

He didn't do everything right, but if all you can point to are things that never happened, that's pretty telling.

 

[Petrus]

Nylander caved. That Marner offer never existed. And they had to sign Matthews first to avoid having both hit RFA status simultaneously, and the signing really changed nothing.

The Marner offer did exist. Because Marner’s agent spoke about it in a radio interview (forget if it was TSN or Sportsnet). In the interview he said he revised the terms after seeing what Matthews got.

Nylander asked for Draistl level contract and Dubas did not agree to it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Marner offer did exist. Because Marner’s agent spoke about it in a radio interview

Marner's agent said that he wanted to play out the season. He never said anything about Marner making an 8.5m offer that was declined, nor did he say anything about an 8m offer, or 9m offer, or 9.5m offer, or any other offer that this myth changes between because there is no actual source and there never has been.

 

[Notsince67]

Keller + 6th for Marner would make me jump for joy!

Quite obvious you don't know who Keller is.

 

[Notsince67]

This has been talked about ad nauseum. But both Nylander and Dubas have stated on the record it was Nylander who reached out at that last minute looking to get a deal done. And the deal they ultimately agreed to was between Ehlers and Pastrnak so this idea that we caved to Nylander’s demands has never been well supported. Especially so when the reporting said originally that nylander wanted $8M

As for Marner, we have conflicting reports as to whether that 8.5Mx8 proposed deal actually existed or not. Some say it did, others have said Marner wanted to bet on himself and play through the final ELC year - especially once Tavares was signed and it was pitched that he and Marner would be linemates.

Definitely should have locked up Marner first so he couldn’t compare himself to Matthews but if Marner did in fact refuse to extend early then that takes some of that decision out of the team’s hands.

The way it worked out, Nylander was paid to sit out 40% of the season looking at it charitably. Effectively, his contract was for 5.6 years...not 6. Normalized to 6 years, it would have been a 7.5mm contract. That was way higher than his comparables.

 

[mikeyz]

He didn't really build anything... he took a team with incredible amount of assets, depleted them and then left. Not before instilling maybe the worst culture in the league.

His moves in Pittsburgh were #$%# too. His moves are what I expect from armchair gms. He loves chasing that diamond in the rough.

Very well said.

 

[TheDoldrums]

The way it worked out, Nylander was paid to sit out 40% of the season looking at it charitably. Effectively, his contract was for 5.6 years...not 6. Normalized to 6 years, it would have been a 7.5mm contract. That was way higher than his comparables.

why would you care about anything besides the AAV, seriously.

 

[hullsy47]

Very well said.

Pittsburgh should grab Ken Holland as president

 

[Petrus]

Marner's agent said that he wanted to play out the season. He never said anything about Marner making an 8.5m offer that was declined, nor did he say anything about an 8m offer, or 9m offer, or 9.5m offer, or any other offer that this myth changes between because there is no actual source and there never has been.

You are right the agent did not state a specific amount only that he should have asked for more given Matthews’s contract.

The agent even said he was being “lowballed.”

 

[Gary Nylund]

Quite obvious you don't know who Keller is.

Wrong.

 

[Notsince67]

why would you care about anything besides the AAV, seriously.

When you look at the benefits to players, the discussion becomes relevant. If someone is touting the fair deal of Nylander, one must quantify the gain.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Caving to Nylander was Dubas first big mistake. Not accepting Marners offer (8.5x8) was the 2nd one. Signing Matthews before Marner was the 3rd one.

First was Tavares - it inflated everyone’s salary