Mitch Marner discussion

[Fogelhund]

Was just a name I threw out there because I know he’s being shopped.

replace him with a young D who plays on the right side. Jfc.

Sure, just like that?

Name all of the young RD, who you think are both available, and the teams have a need for a RW.

 

[KapG]

Sure, just like that?

Name all of the young RD, who you think are both available, and the teams have a need for a RW.

Well, if marner is as valuable as some on here make him out to be surely some team would be willing to give up one of their young RD

 

[ToneDog]

Well, if marner is as valuable as some on here make him out to be surely some team would be willing to give up one of their young RD

Will be difficult to fit an $10.893m player into an existing cap, without some cap dump coming back (let's see how Vegas does it with Eichel), I'd target Drysdale if I were shopping Mitch and replace him with a cheap Phil Kessel. Of course Mitch and the team have to sh1t the bed in April before any talk of moving a core player is valid.

 

[Canadian Finn]

talk about a polarizing player.

half the fanbase loves him, half the fanbase does not. (88 vs 89 votes)

 

[egd27]

Send him to zona for chychrun +?

Doubt zona is in the market for an $11M winger.

 

[Notsince67]

Like the last few playoffs right?

Yeah. Nothing like having 5 left hand defensemen to make things better.

 

[Notsince67]

There are definitely some defensemen that would make sense, unfortunately I think the Leafs would have to retain.

Makar only makes 9 million.
Fox 9.5
Hedman 7.875
Hughes 7.850

Hedman has a NMC
Hughes is a bit of a joke for Marner
Do you have blackmail photos to entice a trade for Fox or Makar?

 

[Zybalto]

You have confirmed my point, we have very limited data of Marner without Matthews or Tavares, and the little data we have of Marner without Matthews (the beginning of the season) Marner struggled. You then make excuses for Marner and suggest a possible injury or blame playing with Ritchie. If im not mistaken Matthews has played alot of minutes without Nylander, Tavares or Marner on his line and he still does pretty damn good. Again, the question isnt, do Matthews and Marner together have better percentages than without eachother... the question is does Marner move the needle 11 million dollars ahead for Matthews or does he move it 6 million dollars ahead. Also, does Marner produce 11 million dollar value when not playing with elite centers ie is he elite with 2nd and 3rd line players like Matthews has proven to be and Crosby and Mcdavid (or others paid 11 million) Marner has been in the league a long time and the crazy part is none of us have seen him without an elite linemate for an extended period of time. We dont know how hed perform. Again, Berkshires stats were in 2019, Marners best season, and primarily a playmaker he was 26th in creation of scoring chances for his linemates. His most commone linemates were #3 and #12 and they are also two of the very best goal scorers in the league.

I really want to see Marner play an extended period of time without an elite goal scoring linemate. I certainly saw Matthews score A LOT of goals last year that maybe 1 or 2 other nhl players could score, ans Marner was the beneficiary. I also think there is a chance Marner would become more independant and produce more on his own and maybe score more if he wasnt always looking to find his elite scoring linemate and maybe had less trust in his linemates shots.

I do appreciate you posting the stats though to support your arguments, its helpful and makes seeing your perspective easier.

The thing about Marner away from elite talent is that we already know how he would perform but we want to maximize his effectiveness to the team. Over the past 5 years, he has the 2nd most primary assists in the league (to McDavid) and thats a really good thing. It's not just because he plays with elite snipers, it's also because he helps those snipers score goals (while being one of the best defensive wingers in the league).

Looking at a comparison of his in terms of effectiveness, Marchand, over the last three years and he has played the overwhelming amount of his time on the ice centered by Bergeron and vise versa right? Now, away from each other, they have pretty pedestrian numbers but together, they are dynamite. Theres a chemistry thing thats just as important as anything at play here and they just have it. Really good players also tend to be more effective with other really good players........which leads to an example like McDavid/Draisaitl.

Those two are arguably the greatest PP combo ever seen and yet if you split them up, the numbers start to crash (especially Draisatl's). Just because Draisaitl's numbers are barely above Spezza's on the PP without McDavid doesnt mean he's bad on the PP right? It just means you really have a special thing here and it would just be spectacularly stupid to split them up at any point. Considering Matthews/Marner are easily one of the most effective partnerships in the league and massively underrated defensive force, it's the same story there. Don't touch that pairing.

Moneypuck has a handy little tool that has a quick xGF% for lines and the top line in the league this year that has played at least 60 minutes has been:
Bunting/Matthews/Marner
The 2nd best line in the league last year that played at least 200 minutes was:
Hyman/Matthews/Marner
The top line in the playoffs with at least 80 minutes last year was:
Hyman/Matthews/Marner (and they wrecked the #1 regular season line so bad it was split up)

Since Keefe took over the Leafs, they have put up a points% of .669 (nice) and, despite missing 13 games, Marner has played 33% of the minutes of the team over that stretch. He never gets credit for his D, gets blamed when its not his fault because he makes a decent amount of dough (what a stupid take that is) and is one of the most effective players in the league. If he ever got put on a trade block, 31 other teams would be lining up offers for him (even cap teams trying to make room) as it's hard to spend money much better without getting lucky on a guy about to explode (and who can really predict that).

I just think he's been treated pretty unfairly by the fanbase (and it may even be getting to him). Absolute stud of a player and one of the best wingers to play for the Leafs, ever.

 

[Confucius]

I wish Marner could play the whole 2 minutes of a PK. When he is on the ice nobody better think routine plays, he is always trying to disrupt and catch players being complacent in their routine.

 

[Fogelhund]

Well, if marner is as valuable as some on here make him out to be surely some team would be willing to give up one of their young RD

You’ve missed the point. Who has a good young RD, that they can afford to move, that also needs a top line winger?

 

[Notsince67]

The thing about Marner away from elite talent is that we already know how he would perform but we want to maximize his effectiveness to the team. Over the past 5 years, he has the 2nd most primary assists in the league (to McDavid) and thats a really good thing. It's not just because he plays with elite snipers, it's also because he helps those snipers score goals (while being one of the best defensive wingers in the league).

Looking at a comparison of his in terms of effectiveness, Marchand, over the last three years and he has played the overwhelming amount of his time on the ice centered by Bergeron and vise versa right? Now, away from each other, they have pretty pedestrian numbers but together, they are dynamite. Theres a chemistry thing thats just as important as anything at play here and they just have it. Really good players also tend to be more effective with other really good players........which leads to an example like McDavid/Draisaitl.

Those two are arguably the greatest PP combo ever seen and yet if you split them up, the numbers start to crash (especially Draisatl's). Just because Draisaitl's numbers are barely above Spezza's on the PP without McDavid doesnt mean he's bad on the PP right? It just means you really have a special thing here and it would just be spectacularly stupid to split them up at any point. Considering Matthews/Marner are easily one of the most effective partnerships in the league and massively underrated defensive force, it's the same story there. Don't touch that pairing.

Moneypuck has a handy little tool that has a quick xGF% for lines and the top line in the league this year that has played at least 60 minutes has been:
Bunting/Matthews/Marner
The 2nd best line in the league last year that played at least 200 minutes was:
Hyman/Matthews/Marner
The top line in the playoffs with at least 80 minutes last year was:
Hyman/Matthews/Marner (and they wrecked the #1 regular season line so bad it was split up)

Since Keefe took over the Leafs, they have put up a points% of .669 (nice) and, despite missing 13 games, Marner has played 33% of the minutes of the team over that stretch. He never gets credit for his D, gets blamed when its not his fault because he makes a decent amount of dough (what a stupid take that is) and is one of the most effective players in the league. If he ever got put on a trade block, 31 other teams would be lining up offers for him (even cap teams trying to make room) as it's hard to spend money much better without getting lucky on a guy about to explode (and who can really predict that).

I just think he's been treated pretty unfairly by the fanbase (and it may even be getting to him). Absolute stud of a player and one of the best wingers to play for the Leafs, ever.

Come the end of their contracts, Matthews, Marner and Nylander will have brinks trucks back up to their doors from other teams. Let's just imagine how many so called fans will describe how well this team was treated by the fanbase and how Toronto deserves home town discounts and no NTC.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Come the end of their contracts, Matthews, Marner and Nylander will have brinks trucks back up to their doors from other teams. Let's just imagine how many so called fans will describe how well this team was treated by the fanbase and how Toronto deserves home town discounts and no NTC.

Toronto fans are among the most passionate, most patient and most loyal in all of pro sports so I hope you're not suggesting that the players haven't been treated well.

I never expected a discount from anyone, the best I can hope for is that that Dubas has learned from his mistake, is able to negotiate fair contracts without overpayments and if that means we can't afford to keep them all, that he practices good asset management and trades one before they walk for nothing.

 

[Notsince67]

Toronto fans are among the most passionate, most patient and most loyal in all of pro sports so I hope you're not suggesting that the players haven't been treated well.

I never expected a discount from anyone, the best I can hope for is that that Dubas has learned from his mistake, is able to negotiate fair contracts without overpayments and if that means we can't afford to keep them all, that he practices good asset management and trades one before they walk for nothing.

There are 2 kinds of leaf fans. The loyal passionate ones that have stuck with them and the ignorant aholes that want line changes during a winning streak just so they can experiment with idiocy.
I like the team...not the so called fans.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are 2 kinds of leaf fans. The loyal passionate ones that have stuck with them and the ignorant aholes that want line changes during a winning streak just so they can experiment with idiocy.
I like the team...not the so called fans.

Too simplistic and too general for me. I'm also pretty sure that many of those people who are constantly talking about line changes are also loyal and passionate.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Toronto fans are among the most passionate, most patient and most loyal in all of pro sports so I hope you're not suggesting that the players haven't been treated well.

Some are. Then there is a very vocal minority that is the complete opposite, and does not appreciate the amazing players we have. Marner has been horribly mistreated by this fanbase since his contract was signed.

I never expected a discount from anyone, the best I can hope for is that that Dubas has learned from his mistake, is able to negotiate fair contracts without overpayments

See, but the end of your sentence confirms that you did want discounts. Because Dubas did negotiate fair contracts without overpayments, and you're still incorrectly labelling it a mistake because you seem to have wanted Matthews/Marner to be undercompensated for their PP proficiency because of things outside of their control, which is not how contract valuation works.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner donates 30000 toys plus to Toy Mountain.

Mitch Marner's Toy Mountain contribution

 

[Dreakmur]

Some are. Then there is a very vocal minority that is the complete opposite, and does not appreciate the amazing players we have. Marner has been horribly mistreated by this fanbase since his contract was signed.

There’s also fans who think that we have a good collection of players that don’t necessarily add up to a championship team. I might be wrong, but that doesn’t mean I hate the team.

Marner brought the venom upon himself by negotiating like a tool. Big contracts come with big expectations.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There’s also fans who think that we have a good collection of players that don’t necessarily add up to a championship team. I might be wrong, but that doesn’t mean I hate the team.

Marner brought the venom upon himself by negotiating like a tool. Big contracts come with big expectations.

Yes I think for most of us, all that matters is team success, and by that I mean playoff success. Win in the playoffs, and nobody will care about any of the details. But keep going out in the 1st round, even as huge favourites and then it's only natural that some people refuse to forget about things like threats of soliciting offer sheets etc.

There is one way to make everyone happy - just win baby.

 

[ULF_55]

There are 2 kinds of leaf fans. The loyal passionate ones that have stuck with them and the ignorant aholes that want line changes during a winning streak just so they can experiment with idiocy.
I like the team...not the so called fans.

I like the team, and some of the players, but players are rentals anyway.

Team has been around for all of my life, players come and go.

marner has potential to be remembered by the kids of today, like Keon is for us old guys.

Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on marner as Keon had 3 years, in 15, where he didn't score a shorthanded goal.

 

[ACC1224]

There’s also fans who think that we have a good collection of players that don’t necessarily add up to a championship team. I might be wrong, but that doesn’t mean I hate the team.

Marner brought the venom upon himself by negotiating like a tool. Big contracts come with big expectations.

Thought people were over that. That will continue to be one of the stranger takes we see here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I like the team, and some of the players, but players are rentals anyway.

Team has been around for all of my life, players come and go.

marner has potential to be remembered by the kids of today, like Keon is for us old guys.

Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on marner as Keon had 3 years, in 15, where he didn't score a shorthanded goal.

Yeah that's a good point - every player is a rental when you get right down to it.

As far as being hard on the players, if the team wins then nobody will hard on anyone. When the team keeps failing year after year, players will be under the microscope and they will be criticized. It's always been that way in all of pro sports and it probably always will.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Thought people were over that. That will continue to be one of the stranger takes we see here.

You think that people being pissed at team Marner threatening to solicit offer sheets is a strange take? Now that is a strange take indeed.

 

[Matthews4Calder]

There are definitely some defensemen that would make sense, unfortunately I think the Leafs would have to retain.

Makar only makes 9 million.
Fox 9.5
Hedman 7.875
Hughes 7.850

Not even sure which of these teams would even consider the notion of trading their D. I would definitely say you aren't getting Makar. He's not going anywhere. Fox right behind him. Maybe Hedman due to age and Hughes I could see Vancouver letting go. The first 2 aint going anywhere especially Makar.

 

[Leafslet]

Thought people were over that. That will continue to be one of the stranger takes we see here.

I am over the negotiation, but the fact remains he isnt worth 10.9 & his cap hit is a huge problem for balancing out our lineup because of just how inflated it is.

 

[Notsince67]

I like the team, and some of the players, but players are rentals anyway.

Team has been around for all of my life, players come and go.

marner has potential to be remembered by the kids of today, like Keon is for us old guys.

Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on marner as Keon had 3 years, in 15, where he didn't score a shorthanded goal.

Keon in interesting. The leafs in the 70's might have been but a few pieces from the cup. Keon was run out of town and the league by Ballard over a contract dispute.
Had Ballard not been such a money grubbing ahole and retained both Keon and Henderson, we might be talking about a different history. The ghost of Ballard is present in the fan base.