Confirmed with Link: Mitch Marner Discussion Thread II - First Team All-Star

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Seems like yesterday I was telling you it's probably just a strange outlier and Marner is gonna pop off on the PP soon. He actually had decent PP goal-scoring numbers before the drought as well.

2020-2021 (the no PP goal year):
ES goal/60 rate: 31st in the NHL (comparable Ovechkin was 28th)

This season:
ES goal/60 rate: 33rd in the NHL (comparable Draisaitl is 29th)

I think the PP coaching change has made a massive difference and Marner no longer is trying to force passes through to set up the "shooters". He still has pretty much the same shot he always had with slight improvements but has also gotten better is when to utilize it as he's come into his prime. Calling it a "muffin" was always silly to me as he's been a 20+ goal scorer since he stepped on the ice and is probably at least 30+ guy for the rest of his career moving forward (although probably more 35+ goal, 100+ points guy if not higher).

1st year: 20ish goal pace
2nd year: 22 goals
3rd year: 26 goals
4th year: 25ish goal pace
5th year: 30+ goal pace (with 0 PP goals)
6th year: 40+ goal pace


He was NEVER a timid mediocre shooter. People talked themselves into that after the Leafs ran into 3 of the best goalie playoff performances the last 3 first rounds in a row (and that awful PP the last couple... and not saying the Leafs blew some chances too but that horse has been beaten to death)

Lets just hope it all translates in the playoffs this season.
I agree with you. I said years ago he has a good enough shot to score a lot more goals given the positions he gets to around the "home plate" area... But once some people latch on to a narrative it soon becomes a runaway train, on here and most other social media sites.
 
While this is true, I'm not sure why people think this is only relevant to Matthews' results. If you're on a line with a grinder coming off a significant knee injury who can't do his job and provides zero offense (with his only point being a Marner goal miscredited to him), and a finisher who's dealing with a surgery-requiring wrist injury and can't shoot like normal, that's going to impact your results too, especially when you're primarily a playmaker. The things the line did best were largely things that Marner brings, and yet somehow he's the one often singled out to blame.
Agreed to an extent, but he dominated play but couldn't finish like we know he can because of the wrist. He's still better than 80% of the league with the injured wrist. They dominated the shot shares but a combination of poor puck luck and AM's bad wrist just made things look worse, plus Marner wasn't taking his clean looks like he is now.....

And it's relevant to all of their results IMO.
 
Seems like yesterday I was telling you it's probably just a strange outlier and Marner is gonna pop off on the PP soon. He actually had decent PP goal-scoring numbers before the drought as well.

2020-2021 (the no PP goal year):
ES goal/60 rate: 31st in the NHL (comparable Ovechkin was 28th)

This season:
ES goal/60 rate: 33rd in the NHL (comparable Draisaitl is 29th)

I think the PP coaching change has made a massive difference and Marner no longer is trying to force passes through to set up the "shooters". He still has pretty much the same shot he always had with slight improvements but has also gotten better is when to utilize it as he's come into his prime. Calling it a "muffin" was always silly to me as he's been a 20+ goal scorer since he stepped on the ice and is probably at least 30+ guy for the rest of his career moving forward (although probably more 35+ goal, 100+ points guy if not higher).

1st year: 20ish goal pace
2nd year: 22 goals
3rd year: 26 goals
4th year: 25ish goal pace
5th year: 30+ goal pace (with 0 PP goals)
6th year: 40+ goal pace


He was NEVER a timid mediocre shooter. People talked themselves into that after the Leafs ran into 3 of the best goalie playoff performances the last 3 first rounds in a row (and that awful PP the last couple... and not saying the Leafs blew some chances too but that horse has been beaten to death)

Lets just hope it all translates in the playoffs this season.
I wasn't focused on the PP, that was Gretzky. I was talking about his shot in general. Anyhow, you mention coaching so that's a possibility I guess, also your numbers show that his goal pace has been going up every year which jives with what I was saying (and what we all are seeing) - he's a huge threat to score now in a way he wasn't before. Even from a 30 goal pace last season to a 40 goal pace this season is a huge uptick and without investigating it deeply, I'd guess that much of that uptick is because of the tear he's been on last couple of months so I stand by what I said - his shot seems to be MUCH improved as of late.

I don't agree that his shot is "pretty much the same", I think his shot is way better than it was.

As far as hoping it continues in the playoffs, yeah I'm sure we all agree (even if the word playoffs triggers some people). I don't want to make predictions but man he just looks so good, I feel really good about him continuing his domination in the playoffs. Maybe not quite the same point pace which would be an unrealistic expectation but dominant all the same. There's just something different about him these last few months, not just the shot but the whole package.
 
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If they played the same amount of games as McDavid 70 games
Mathews 102 pts
Marner 100 pts
 
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I know Matthews is getting all the love, but I'd argue Marner should be the Hart winner, he does everything on the team. He's great 5 on 5, he's exceptional on the PK and incredible on the PP. For me he is truly the heart beat of the team. What Matthews is doing is unbelievable. He scores at will, but when you look at the whole picture, Marner does so much outside of just scoring goals to help the team win night in and night out. Is there even any question about his worth anymore?
 
I wasn't focused on the PP, that was Gretzky. I was talking about his shot in general. Anyhow, you mention coaching so that's a possibility I guess, also your numbers show that his goal pace has been going up every year which jives with what I was saying (and what we all are seeing) - he's a huge threat to score now in a way he wasn't before. Even from a 30 goal pace last season to a 40 goal pace this season is a huge uptick.

I don't agree that his shot is "pretty much the same", I think his shot is way better than it was.

As far as hoping it continues in the playoffs, yeah I'm sure we all agree (even if the word playoffs triggers some people). I don't want to make predictions but man he just looks so good, I feel really good about him continuing his domination in the playoffs. Maybe not quite the same point pace which would be an unrealistic expectation but dominant all the same. There's just something different about him these last few months, not just the shot but the whole package.
His shot is certainly better than his first couple of years but I threw in the ES stats just to show he's scoring at basically the same pace as last year + PP goals this season. Considering the PP coaching overhaul, I tend to look in that direction but confidence and even more work on his shot come into play too I guess.
 
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For you it’s not so recent, I don’t care if that’s too far away for you. That’s fine but for me I can celebrate past moments. I don’t get why there has to be a shit on Marner cause of one series. They all had a bad series. I will always choose to be optimistic and believe the guys will perform. I don’t need you to try and bring me down to a level of pessimism you want to be at. Same ways I’m not expecting you to be optimistic, it’s all a personal choice.

Not everyone still feels apathetic about the team.
Don’t forget the poster in question is a huge Willy fan so it’s necessary to shit on Mitch. Makes them feel better. Posters on here like to believe marner had a terrible playoffs. Both him and Matthews was shut out. Not shut down. They had their chances just couldn’t finish. Also I don’t think they had a 5v5 goal scored against them in the playoffs. But you know how posters with agendas are.
 
I know Matthews is getting all the love, but I'd argue Marner should be the Hart winner, he does everything on the team. He's great 5 on 5, he's exceptional on the PK and incredible on the PP. For me he is truly the heart beat of the team. What Matthews is doing is unbelievable. He scores at will, but when you look at the whole picture, Marner does so much outside of just scoring goals to help the team win night in and night out. Is there even any question about his worth anymore?
Not to put a damper on this, but outside of PK'ing.....Matthews is just all round better as he plays a much tougher position with more resposibility.

We are blessed to have both. We need to stop pitting one against the other. They have different strengths. All it does is start arguments.

It's Like people who failed to recognize just how good Liljegren is as a rookie and how he's separated himself from Sandin. But Sanidn may take that leap next season. We have both....be happy!
 
Mitch in games without Matthews: 5gms, 1gls, 4pts (82gms, 16gls, 66pts)
Matthews in games without Mitch: 9gms, 11gls, 15pts (82gms, 100gls, 137pts)
 
I know Matthews is getting all the love, but I'd argue Marner should be the Hart winner, he does everything on the team. He's great 5 on 5, he's exceptional on the PK and incredible on the PP. For me he is truly the heart beat of the team. What Matthews is doing is unbelievable. He scores at will, but when you look at the whole picture, Marner does so much outside of just scoring goals to help the team win night in and night out. Is there even any question about his worth anymore?
As of today Matthews gets my vote but Marner deserves to be in the conversation. He is kind of a "swiss army knife" type of player because like you say, he excels in all situations. He's starting to remind me (in terms of style) more and more of the great one. Both are perhaps known primarily for their passing skills, both have an excellent shot (that's something we can now say about Marner that wasn't true before), both are excellent skaters (though neither has blazing speed), both are a substantial threat to score shorthanded and both play in all situations. Gretzky lite is a helluva player!

Not to put a damper on this, but outside of PK'ing.....Matthews is just all round better as he plays a much tougher position with more resposibility.

We are blessed to have both. We need to stop pitting one against the other. They have different strengths. All it does is start arguments.

It's Like people who failed to recognize just how good Liljegren is as a rookie and how he's separated himself from Sandin. But Sanidn may take that leap next season. We have both....be happy!
You make valid points for Matthews and that's why he gets my vote but if someone were to cast their vote for Marner, it wouldn't be a big surprise because you could make a case for him as well.

I agree we shouldn't pit them against each other, I've always hated the player X vs player Y threads but I haven't really seen this happen up to this point with M&M and I think that's because until now, most people have seen Matthews as clearly the more valuable player. Marner is starting to make it interesting now though and I don't have a problem with someone saying so but yeah, I really hope it doesn't turn into a big debate cause I really hate those.
 
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Not to put a damper on this, but outside of PK'ing.....Matthews is just all round better as he plays a much tougher position with more resposibility.

We are blessed to have both. We need to stop pitting one against the other. They have different strengths. All it does is start arguments.

It's Like people who failed to recognize just how good Liljegren is as a rookie and how he's separated himself from Sandin. But Sanidn may take that leap next season. We have both....be happy!

I agree with your points. It’s not so much pitting them against each other. But Marner creates so many plays for Matthews. Matthews creates a lot of his own chances too. I’m just saying Marner deserves a lot of consideration. Both are special and important. If Marner didn’t miss a bunch of games with injury he could be leading the league in scoring right now, which is crazy to think about.

I do admit I was wrong about Liljegren to a degree. I didn’t hate him, just thought he made a lot of mistakes. It’s nice to see him round out.
 
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As of today Matthews gets my vote but Marner deserves to be in the conversation. He is kind of a "swiss army knife" type of player because like you say, he excels in all situations. He's starting to remind me (in terms of style) more and more of the great one. Both are perhaps known primarily for their passing skills, both have an excellent shot (that's something we can now say about Marner that wasn't true before), both are excellent skaters (though neither has blazing speed), both are a substantial threat to score shorthanded and both play in all situations. Gretzky lite is a helluva player!


You make valid points for Matthews and that's why he gets my vote but if someone were to cast their vote for Marner, it wouldn't be a big surprise because you could make a case for him as well.

I agree we shouldn't pit them against each other, I've always hated the player X vs player Y threads but I haven't really seen this happen up to this point with M&M and I think that's because until now, most people have seen Matthews as clearly the more valuable player. Marner is starting to make it interesting now though and I don't have a problem with someone saying so but yeah, I really hope it doesn't turn into a big debate cause I really hate those.

Exactly, both are exceptional. I just look at it from the stand point of Marner is proving he can play almost any role and excel at it. He just creates so much space for others on the ice. The amazing thing this season is that now that he’s shooting or has improved his shot, he’s creating scoring opportunities for himself. He’s now a big threat because it’s not 100% he’s gonna pass now, he might keep and shoot.

But like you’ve said, we’ve got both. I doubt either one is moving any time soon. Unless they don’t perform in the playoffs.

Here’s a question I have though. If both Marner and Matthews show up, let’s say they go PPG or better in the playoffs and still lose in the 1st round? Do you still want to see a change or would you be more willing to go at it again with the core?
 
I don't think you trade talents like Matthews and Marner. Players like that don't come around very often. At some point, those two will lead us to some degree of playoff success, I truly believe that. I think a Nylander trade is far more likely. Moving Tavares is the dream, but unfortunately he's probably here to stay.
 
The morons who have wanted Mitch traded should be mindful of this. Playing with Mitch beside him is the only reason Matthews won't walk as a UFA in two years.
 
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"Before Tuesday night in Florida — when Marner surpassed the 30-goal mark for the first time, increasing his shooting percentage to a career-best 16.7 — he too confessed doubt that his dual threat theory would come to light.

“I think I always knew I had it in me. I just didn't really ever trust it, believe in it,” says Marner, when the cameras aren’t rolling. “And when it starts going in, then you start believing a lot more. You start trusting yourself a lot more and get yourself in opportunities (to shoot).

“From that point on, it makes the goalie play more honest with you. It gives you other options and other guys to pass the puck to and get a chance to score.”"




Love hearing our stars acknowledge an actual difference in play with reasons. Really didn't like the way they talked about that Habs series and about how "they created the scoring chances but it just didn't go in" (paraphrase). They had to realize there were higher levels to reach and it looks like they're realizing it.
 
Not sure if posted but I read he set an NHL record for shortest time between a PP and SH goal at I believe 27 seconds, previously held by Lemieux at 37 seconds?

Obscure but nonetheless.....
 
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Exactly, both are exceptional. I just look at it from the stand point of Marner is proving he can play almost any role and excel at it. He just creates so much space for others on the ice. The amazing thing this season is that now that he’s shooting or has improved his shot, he’s creating scoring opportunities for himself. He’s now a big threat because it’s not 100% he’s gonna pass now, he might keep and shoot.

But like you’ve said, we’ve got both. I doubt either one is moving any time soon. Unless they don’t perform in the playoffs.

Here’s a question I have though. If both Marner and Matthews show up, let’s say they go PPG or better in the playoffs and still lose in the 1st round? Do you still want to see a change or would you be more willing to go at it again with the core?

What I would say first of all is that it's not so much whether they win or lose, but how it happens. Play well and battle to the end, that's one thing. Play their worst game of the series and get dominated 3-0 in game 7, that's another thing entirely. But as I've said around this time of year for the last several years, now's not the time to think about stuff like that IMHO. Campbell's been great last two starts and goal is the only question mark, the rest of the team is looking fantastic so I'm thinking nothing but positive thoughts. Time for a deep playoff run, that's about it.
 
In my opinion, he looks like a prime Zetterberg out there. He can create, he can score, and he can defend against the other team's best players. Excellent edgework, rarely gets hit, tough to knock off his skates, backchecks like a demon when he needs to.

We're up one in game 7, I want him out there shadowing the opposition's Crosby, much like Hank used to.
 
His shot is certainly better than his first couple of years but I threw in the ES stats just to show he's scoring at basically the same pace as last year + PP goals this season. Considering the PP coaching overhaul, I tend to look in that direction but confidence and even more work on his shot come into play too I guess.
Confidence does seem to be the most logical answer at this point. Strange in way too, I mean he was 1st team all-star last season so hard to say he was lacking confidence then but whatever, he's killing it now and it's a thrill to watch. Most of the season I've just been waiting for the playoffs to start but M&M have been so dominant lately that I'm getting caught up in the excitement too. Can't wait for the game tonight!

I don't think you trade talents like Matthews and Marner. Players like that don't come around very often. At some point, those two will lead us to some degree of playoff success, I truly believe that. I think a Nylander trade is far more likely. Moving Tavares is the dream, but unfortunately he's probably here to stay.
Players that good rarely get traded so it almost certainly won't be happening and yes, this team can't lose forever in the playoffs, at least I hope not. It's sure been a long wait though, let's hope drought ends this spring!

In principle though, never say never. It's all about the team so if someone makes you an offer you can't refuse, then you take it though. But yeah, it's not gonna happen.
 
Confidence does seem to be the most logical answer at this point. Strange in way too, I mean he was 1st team all-star last season so hard to say he was lacking confidence then but whatever, he's killing it now and it's a thrill to watch. Most of the season I've just been waiting for the playoffs to start but M&M have been so dominant lately that I'm getting caught up in the excitement too. Can't wait for the game tonight!


Players that good rarely get traded so it almost certainly won't be happening and yes, this team can't lose forever in the playoffs, at least I hope not. It's sure been a long wait though, let's hope drought ends this spring!

In principle though, never say never. It's all about the team so if someone makes you an offer you can't refuse, then you take it though. But yeah, it's not gonna happen.
I think confidence and he is shooting the puck quicker than before helps. He is no longer thinking pass first, which also helps.
 

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