Might RFID be the answer to "is the puck in the goal" or offsides? | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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Might RFID be the answer to "is the puck in the goal" or offsides?

LadyStanley

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Controversial though this may be, the ability to pinpoint the location of an RFID chip can be a boon to the NHL. Even with one of the best video-review systems in sports, there are limitations to what the NHL can do with instant replay. If there is a pileup of bodies in the crease on a disputed goal, it is borderline impossible for officials to tell whether the puck crossed the line. All the overhead and in-the-net cameras in the world are useless if the puck is in the glove of a goaltender with his hand straddling the goal line, or under someone’s leg. The preponderance of teams who wear black equipment make sorting out tricky scoring plays even more of a challenge.
With RFID-implanted pucks, the NHL would be the first major professional sports league to use technology to ensure correct scoring decisions. While soccer, the global game and the top challenger to hockey’s Big Four status in North America, wrestles with the decision of whether to even use cameras on the goal line, hockey could move well ahead and begin to stake its own claim as the “Sport of the Future.â€
Combining RFID pucks with tags on each player’s skates, the NHL could also use technology to make infallible decisions on offside and icing plays, and end controversy once and for all on too many men on the ice penalties. By programming a rules violation to automatically trigger a sound or a notification to a referee to blow his whistle, the NHL could theoretically take its linesmen off the ice, freeing valuable real estate on an ice surface that stays the same size as players get larger through the years.
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I'm skeptical that RFID can reliably be that accurate. Cool idea otherwise.
 
Of all people, Danny Gare was the one who for years talked about putting something in the puck to be able to conclusively tell if it was in the net.

There are still Calgary fans who swear that Gelinas scored in Game 6, but the camera angles didn't clearly show it. RF technology would have made it conclusive.
 
Would RFID actually work to determine whether the puck fully crossed the line as current rules require? Or would this be dependent upon a "breaking the plane" style rule for scoring like in the NFL?
 
Thats a great idea. Make it so.... what happens though if the goalie catches the puck or blocks it, has it under control, but the velocity & power of the shot carries his hand behind the goal line for a split second causing the sensor to trigger the goal light?
 
I wonder how it would work. If I'm not mistaken RFID can work through metal, but it doesn't work through liquids. So would the sensors be in the post? What if the goalie's in the way?

I just don't think it's accurate enough. Maybe a better option would be a sort of magnetic sensor under the ice? Or maybe they can make the ice clear under the red-line so that they could get a video feed of right where the puck needs to cross?
 
Killion said:
Thats a great idea. Make it so.... what happens though if the goalie catches the puck or blocks it, has it under control, but the velocity & power of the shot carries his hand behind the goal line for a split second causing the sensor to trigger the goal light?
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It would be a goal as usual.
 
RFID is very easily hacked. This would work until one fan walks in with a jammer or worse, just sends out a signal to wipe all the pucks, wasting money and rendering it all useless. The first time someone sets off a goal horn when the puck isn't in HFboards will lose their minds and scream for Bettman's head for ever allowing RFID to even have an affect on the outcome.
 
I don't know enough about the different technologies available to speculate on how the system would be set up. I can only assume that the definition of a goal would have to change from completely crossing the line, to counting when the center of the puck crossed the back of the goal line. That would allow for any internal device in the puck to be centered and balanced, and also account for pucks that didn't cross the line flat (rolling pucks, end over end, etc.)
 
I would rather see a big hole in the ice behind the goal line like my old table top hockey game. That's why the hole was there... so you and your buddy didn't have to resort to fisticuffs to decide if the puck crossed the line or not. Puck crosses the line... falls in the hole... problem solved. ;)
 
Killion said:
Thats a great idea. Make it so.... what happens though if the goalie catches the puck or blocks it, has it under control, but the velocity & power of the shot carries his hand behind the goal line for a split second causing the sensor to trigger the goal light?
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Isn't that the definition of a goal?
If the puck crosses the line, even for a split second, its a goal.
 
T-Funk said:
It would be a goal as usual.
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wpgsilver said:
Isn't that the definition of a goal?
If the puck crosses the line, even for a split second, its a goal.
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... sure, its "supposed" to be a goal, but if you ever actually played goal, youd understand that in stopping the puck, the odd time on a glove save for example you'll catch it, save it, the weight & velocity taking your hand & arm back & for a split second it might go over the goal line by like a 1/4" a foot or four above the ice. The Ref's never catch those, nor do the Goal Judges, the other players on the ice. But you know. You just dont say anything. Follow? :naughty:
 
I like the idea of getting rid of the Linesmen and giving the players more space using the RFID. However, it's not accurate enough for me to trust it with the goal line.
 
How many goals are in dispute because of the can't see the line thing in a year? How much does this cost? There's a cost benefit ratio and I don't know if the NHL will do this for the regular season.
 
The economics of it are the problem.

A puck with a chip would be worth more than good ol' rubber pucks. Maybe 10-12 bucks a puck? Think how many pucks are lost by game, and multiply puck value by no. of pucks lost by game and then by number of games played in a season. That's a lot of money.

Plus you have to make changes to all the arenas to accomodate the sensors.
 
shortshorts said:
I like the idea of getting rid of the Linesmen and giving the players more space using the RFID. However, it's not accurate enough for me to trust it with the goal line.
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Getting rid of the linesemen will never happen. They won't be able to sack jobs for advanced technology. Unions won't allow it.
 
I don't get why the league doesn't use high speed cameras to determine something so important as the puck crossing the goal line or not. The puck is just a blur with the current cams. I've seen some teams use them for standard replays, so it surely can't be that difficult to implement in all arenas.
 
DuklaNation said:
Doesn't tennis use something like this?
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No. The Hawk-Eye system used in tennis is purely visual - it uses multiple high-speed cameras and computer modeling. There is nothing in tennis which obstructs the views from multiple cameras.
 
YakuBOT said:
I don't get why the league doesn't use high speed cameras to determine something so important as the puck crossing the goal line or not. The puck is just a blur with the current cams. I've seen some teams use them for standard replays, so it surely can't be that difficult to implement in all arenas.
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It was like just a couple of years ago they mandated HD cameras (at about $50k/pop) at each end of the rink.

I'd guess the high speed camera would be closer to $500k. (And from watching recent staged crash of a 737 in Mexican desert, unless you have a decent trigger finger on the button, there's only 30 seconds or so that can be captured. Some of those scrums around the net last longer than that.)
 
I don't see how an RFID chip would do much in many cases. The entire puck has to completely cross the line for a goal to count. In the vast majority of contested goals, the question is whether the entirety of the puck crosses. How would RFID possibly tell you that?

Also, just given how often refs fail at using their mics, I don't think I want them anywhere near more sophisticated technology.
 
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