we were 8-19 in april last year. We came into this year leaning heavily on young guys to carry it, and they've played like kids and/or have had some injury issues. There's still, what, ~130 games left on the season? I think we're a long way from canning a GM or having anything definitive to say about this season.
OT: MIchigan Sports Thread: UM wins Natty Championship
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we were 8-19 in april last year. We came into this year leaning heavily on young guys to carry it, and they've played like kids and/or have had some injury issues. There's still, what, ~130 games left on the season? I think we're a long way from canning a GM or having anything definitive to say about this season.
Ricelund
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Dude, they didn’t sign E-Rod, Baez, Chafin, trade for Barnhart and Meadows to be the worst team in the AL 20% of the way through the season.
Going back to what I posted earlier, they’ve developed literally ONE good player seven years into a rebuild (Skubal). It’s insanity.
This is ignoring the early years of Avila’s tenure that we’ve discussed ad nauseum, getting nothing for the stars he traded away, signing Jordan Zimmermann, etc.
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They also didn't sign them to win the division. The bulk of this team going forward was the progress of Mize, Skubal, Manning, Cadelario, Tork, Greene, etc.
They've had some injury issues, some vets (Schoop, Baez) haven't warmed up yet, and Tork is playing like a rookie. The season has barely started, the vets will likely return to career norms, the bad l;uck injuries will (hopefully) even out, and Tork will start looking like the hitter he is.
If this team is still trash in June/July, then you're going to see a move possibly made. Canning Avila now would be like the Wings canning Yzerman in November after a slow start.
Ricelund
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I’m not saying they were trying to win the division. They were expected to at least be competitive. The fact that they’re in the same place now as they were last year is a massive failure. The season’s already over for most fans. That wasn’t the plan.
And no, Yzerman and Avila aren’t comparable at all. Avila’s been rebuilding for seven years and has very little to show for it other than the high draft picks.
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Last year they finished third...after a really rough start. You're writing off a 162 game season after 30 games because you don't like Avila.
And it's any NHL GM. No NHL GM gets fired after a rough November. If the Tigers don't right the ship, yeah, Avila stands to lose his job. But the Tigers are going to get the chance to right the ship.
FabricDetails
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SpookyTsuki
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newfy
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Ivey or Sharpe should be there. Sharpe could be the best player from this draft
Ed Ned and Leddy
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Yeah it would've been nice to jump up again, but I can definitely live with #5.
I think you have three guys who could potentially make a nice backcourt partnership with Cade in Ivey, Sharpe, and maybe Mathurin. I know there are some concerns about the Cade/Ivey fit, but I feel optimistic it could work gel. Sharpe I definitely like what I've seen, it's just tough because he has so little footage out there. I'll trust our GM/scouts on that one. Mathurin seems a bit less likely, maybe not quite the upside of the first two, but I like his game too.
I know Murray isn't the sexiest option, but I wouldn't throw a fit over it. I think there's a solid chance he's an NBA starter and I don't turn my nose at that at #5OA, even if he's maybe not my first or second choice.
It would be great to strike gold and get a #2 star for Cade, but at the same time it never hurts to fill out the roster with solid players. That puts you in a spot where maybe a couple years from now we trade big-time futures for another star if we need to.
I think you have three guys who could potentially make a nice backcourt partnership with Cade in Ivey, Sharpe, and maybe Mathurin. I know there are some concerns about the Cade/Ivey fit, but I feel optimistic it could work gel. Sharpe I definitely like what I've seen, it's just tough because he has so little footage out there. I'll trust our GM/scouts on that one. Mathurin seems a bit less likely, maybe not quite the upside of the first two, but I like his game too.
I know Murray isn't the sexiest option, but I wouldn't throw a fit over it. I think there's a solid chance he's an NBA starter and I don't turn my nose at that at #5OA, even if he's maybe not my first or second choice.
It would be great to strike gold and get a #2 star for Cade, but at the same time it never hurts to fill out the roster with solid players. That puts you in a spot where maybe a couple years from now we trade big-time futures for another star if we need to.
FabricDetails
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Hear me out - I want that future first the Pistons owe down the line back in their possession. And I'd be good with Bennedict Mathurin but I don't necessarily want to pick him at #5.
My maths are still mathing on this one but the overall framework is a three team deal - Pistons get their future first back and BenMath, OKC gets #5 and maybe some other stuff and then the third team in between #6-#11 that actually picks BenMath (because he probably wont be available at #12) gets OKC's #12 and some other stuff.
As far as complimentary players to Cade as well as where I think the game is going where everyone has to switch on defense I actually think BenMath is 2nd to only Jabari Smith as far as Pistons fit. If he can start at the 2nd guard spot and they keep Jerami Grant then nobody is shorter than 6'5 and everyone can switch in the mold of what the Celtics and Raptors have done.
Ed Ned and Leddy
Brokering the Bally Sports + Corncob TV Merger
Yeah if we could trade down and still snag Mathurin that could be interesting. I definitely get where you're coming from on the length angle, and I agree that Mathurin as a long defender, good shooter, with a bit of slashing would be a nice fit next to Cade who wouldn't need the ball in his hands too often.
My instinct right now is it's probably one of Ivey, Sharpe, or Murray at #5 but I think Weaver will explore all of his options.
Ricelund
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Lil Sebastian Cossa
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Um, yes. If a guy is just having a rough day with illness but his arm isn't f***ed, there isn't anything to worry about. Feeling ill will pass and is a temporary thing. If his arm is irreparably f***ed, well, that's a much bigger worry.
newfy
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I dont know what to think of the lions this season at all and definitely wouldnt put money on their win total at all. Went 3-3 to end the season last 6 games and they definitely seem like a better team going into this season. However, its impossible to just forget about what Goff looked like for a good portion of the season.
Jamo also wont be an option in the early portion of the season which is a guy I think a lot of people are counting to make a difference this season. But I think the defense is definitely better going into the season.
I dont know what to expect at all
and even if Manning did feel something wrong in his arm there is no way in hell anyone associated with the Tigers are going straight to a press conference to broadcast it.
People don't like Avila and it's just them badgering an agenda.
edit: above I'm referring to whoever the twitter person is.
Ricelund
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I don't know why anyone would like Avila.
13-26 in year seven, as Gorosh says in his tweet.
Disastrous trades and signings.
No semblance of a farm system.
No good international FA signings.
What is there to like?
At this point it feels like we're looking at the Millen-era Lions and saying "Hey, at least he drafted Harrington, Roy Williams, and Kevin Smith. His hands were tied."
13-26 in year seven, as Gorosh says in his tweet.
Disastrous trades and signings.
No semblance of a farm system.
No good international FA signings.
What is there to like?
At this point it feels like we're looking at the Millen-era Lions and saying "Hey, at least he drafted Harrington, Roy Williams, and Kevin Smith. His hands were tied."
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Lil Sebastian Cossa
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I'm not defending Avila. I was just saying that there is nothing wrong with being relieved that he's simply not feeling well and is throwing weaker because of that and not something structural.
I don't really like him. Or hate him.
You and I have already been over Avila's history, we know where we stand on that. I don't think the deals or signings he's made have been out of line with what else was going on in the league, and the Tigers have had a lot of bad luck come their way.
I think you are wrong about the farm system, especially considering the state it was in when Avila took over. We had an expansion team level farm system. Avila's brought the system a long way, and especially since bringing Hinch on board has revamped the coaching/instructors throughout the system. Avila probably will be fired before we see the results of it, but when we do see the results it's going to be the ground work Avila laid.
For some reason the international market has never been a focus of the Tigers. It wasn't before Avila, and that hasn't changed. Legit gripe, and damn weird for an organization that has had a lot of latin american stars over the past twenty years.
My problem with the tweet is that a slow start doesn't get GMs fired unless something crazy is going on behind the scenes. And trying to blow up Avila's response as anything other than typical GM speak is just stupid and screaming for the sake of attention. If you want to make a case to fire him, the real case is that you're not happy with the farm system, drafting, etc. And you and I already know where we stand on it. I don't think Avila is anything special, but I don't think he's as abhorrent as people like Gorosh try to make him out to be.
Regardless, if his group of prospects don't turn it around a bit and move forward again, Avila probably is fired later this year. My question is do you want to risk also losing Hinch and the host of coaches he's brought with him? Because we then run a real risk of losing that if we go GM shopping.
newfy
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I dont think any of those guys are a Torkelson/Riley Greene level of player so its not completely fair to say that, but I dont think youre completely off on that either. Avila traded Verlander, Martinez, Upton and others and basically got Candelairo for them.
Martinez and Verlander were still some of the absolute premier players in the game an they got literally nothing for them. Verlander has a Cy Young, 2nd place in the Cy young and another 5th in voting for the Cy young since then. Absolutely pathetic in hindsight
jaster
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Tigers must have had the absolute worst pro scouting department in MLB at the time of those trades. Hopefully they've improved
FabricDetails
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My most useful ADHD thought of the day:
What would an all-time University of Michigan hockey team look like?
What would an all-time University of Michigan hockey team look like?
jaster
I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
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Like, a whole roster? That'd be a fun thing to draw up. I need time to think about that haha.
FabricDetails
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Tigers must have had the absolute worst pro scouting department in MLB at the time of those trades. Hopefully they've improved
Hindsight is usually way more accurate than foresight in deciding what you should have done in the past.
The package he got for Verlander, at the time, was considered a good package. Rogers was seen as a catcher whose defense was already MLB ready and the Perez kid was supposed to be a gem, while Cameron had upside. It didn't work out. Most deals where prospects go the other way don't work out.
Verlander was also seen as a very good pitcher who had slipped from his peak and was getting older with a massive price tag.
Martinez was a one dimensional player on the verge of a massive paycheck that no one really wanted to pay a premium for.
Upton was Upton. Good player but always seemed to have baggage and had his own contract issues.
We weren't dealing a cost controlled Chris Sale in his prime.
jaster
I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
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I can speak only for myself on the Verlander trade, but I didn't really like the return at the time. It was two high-floor, low-ceiling guys and one low-floor, high-ceiling guy whose proximity made him high-risk. It was a sub-par return at the time that wound up being an awful return. But it could be argued that that's all because Avila managed to trade Verlander when he had almost his lowest trade value. Sure, there's context there that matters, but still, it was avoidable.
The Martinez trade was laughable. One-dimensional, sure, but baseball doesn't care how many dimensions a player is. Value is decided by WAR and other advanced stats, and one-dimensional players are frequently more valuable than 5-tool players. And, I mean, the Tigers ended up getting negative value for Martinez, based on the WAR that came back. They effectively paid to trade JD Martinez. Lol.
Wasn't the Suarez trade Avila too?
Sure, he did well to acquire Candelario and maybe Wentz if he turns into anything.
But really, it's the collective return Avila has acquired across all his trades. When you maximize the sample size, it's an underwhelming collective return, given the very good players the Tigers traded away. And that's where my pro scouting comment really comes from, not just from a couple highlighted trades.
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